Granbretan

gamesmeister

Banded Mongoose
Got this book last night, although I still don't have the Hawkmoon core book - that was out of stock.

Only managed to read it for a half hour or so, but was impressed with what I saw, which included

  • An indepth history of Granbretan
  • A write up of many of the beast orders, including their role in the society, their grand constable, special skills available, and other miscellanous benefits. I especially liked the Order of the Mongoose, grand constable Count Sprange of Swinedom...very nice touch 8)
  • Rules for Scientific Sorcery, as used by the Order of the Serpent (among others)
  • A couple of other smaller chapters I can't remember
  • Hunters of Gran Bretan - a 32 page adventure.
I'll give a more complete review when I get chance to read it fully, but so far so good!
 
Actually I have a question. I have just started getting into the world of Hawkmoon (ordered the History of the Runestaff today and have been devouring online information) and I love the idea of the Beast Orders. But everything I have read about them and Granbretan in general have described them as evil and less than human (morality-wise.) Is this either not true or, if it is, are there ways provided in the book to play good guys in the Beast Orders?
 
El-tee said:
Actually I have a question. I have just started getting into the world of Hawkmoon (ordered the History of the Runestaff today and have been devouring online information) and I love the idea of the Beast Orders. But everything I have read about them and Granbretan in general have described them as evil and less than human (morality-wise.) Is this either not true or, if it is, are there ways provided in the book to play good guys in the Beast Orders?

There are several 'good guy' Granbretanians in the books: Huillam D'Averc, who is a Frenchman serving in the Order of the Boar, and Flana Mikoseevar, ex-wife of Baron Meliadus.

Generally, all Granbretanians are congenitally insane. They're born and raised in their beast orders and that shapes their characters. However, the beast orders are cut-throat places and there will undoubtedly be some who shed their masks (or get de-masked and expelled) and might actually find sanity. So it's perfectly possible to have some Good Guy beast masks. It's just more likely than not that they'll have shed the mask first.
 
A good guy Granbetan would have some severe social disadvantages, though. Good guys probably would have trouble carrying out some of thier orders (things like attack this village; rape and kill all who resist, except the leaders who should be brought back to GRanbretan in chains, but make up the difference by raping and killing off a few who didn't resist; enslave the rest). Good folk will ever have some severe cases of guilt, or become an outcast/traitor.

It would be difficult, but would provide some great role-playing possibilities. A GM could even base a campaign around a group of "good guys" who band together, working to overthrow the evil empire, either overtly, or covertly.
 
Krimson said:
atgxtg said:
.[A GM could even base a campaign around a group of "good guys" who band together, working to overthrow the evil empire, either overtly, or covertly.

IE. Hawkmoon

Uh, yeah...

...it is sort of a common theme in heroic fantasy.

What I mean't to write was "A GM could even base a campaign around a group of "good guy" Granbretans, who band together, working to overthrow the evil empire, either overtly, or covertly."


But for some strange reason I left that important bit out... :oops:
 
Well then definitely look at Huillam D'Averc and Flana as guides. Keep in mind that Granbretanians (or whatever they be called) would not have the same moral values as we consider them. For instance, Flana had no reservations about using poison to kill when it suited her. In a lot of ways the people of Granbretan parallel those of Melnibone (more so the Melnibone from Making of Sorcerer). People are embodiments of vice, and virtue is an alien concept. People who exhibit virtuous behaviours would be considered aberrant, and if discovered would be sent for "treatment", which would likely include torture, surgical modification, perhaps a little sorcery, and the odd lobotomy.

Also keep in mind when in a world of vice, people are always looking for weaknesses in others as a means of advancement. An officer who displays mercy may be targeted by subordinates who covet a higher rank. A virtuous Granbretanian could not freely talk of their convictions, and would likely be operating as an individual. It would be near impossible for a group of like minded individuals to find each other. Even if they did, no tell which ones would be spies (and there would be spies).

Back again to standards. Virtue has a very different meaning in Granbretan. Maybe an officer would direct his unit to destroy a village if he thought it would spare more lives in the countryside. The concept of goodness, kindness and generosity would be almost unknown. There would be mercy to an extent, and kindness would be more described as an "invested interest".

Those who find other virtues might be those who have encountered the forces of Count Brass, or been to the Kamarg. Or its possible they could have heard of Hawkmoon's exploits and been inspired. Or the game could take place in a post Hawkmoon era with Flana as Empress where evil is still the order of the day, but at least there is hope.
 
I see a good guy amongst the Beast Orders as someone with a conscience who thinks about what he does. So, he regrets having to torture, rape and pillage and does so with a heavy heart. He might even try not to torture, rape and pillage wherever possible, but when it comes down to it then, wel, needs must.

You could even play someone who has turned his back on the beast orders, gone native or whatever. But, when the chips are down, he could ba as ruthless as required. Godd Guys doing bad when the occasion demands.
 
In The White Wolf's Son Mr. Moorcock has a masked person demasking in the privacy of his home in the presence of a prisoner. One of the main bad guys at that.
 
soltakss said:
I see a good guy amongst the Beast Orders as someone with a conscience who thinks about what he does. So, he regrets having to torture, rape and pillage and does so with a heavy heart. He might even try not to torture, rape and pillage wherever possible, but when it comes down to it then, wel, needs must..

Reminds me of some WWII movies. The ones where the fairly decent German officer won't torture, mistreat, or execute the prisoners, but unless he can get the information Headquarters wants, his superiors will turn said prisoners over to the Gestapo (who have no problems torturing, mistreating or shooting the prisoners).

Or the old Palladium Alignment system-
Would never kill or mistreat a prionser for pleasure, but torture, while distateful, is a necessary means of extracting information.
 
Well, you see, if it were up to me, I'd just let you go. But those upstairs, they've got different ideas, a different kettle of fish, what! So, be a good chap and tell me what I need to know or I'll have to let those gestapo fellows at you and neither of us want that now, do we? There's a good chap, that's right, better out than in. Now, doesn't that feel better?
 
Yeah, that's they guy. He's the one who was schooled in England but went home to the fatherland after war broke out.

Then there is the really good "bad guy" who won't let the Gestapo have the prisoner because he is technically a prionser of the Whermatch or Lufftwaffe. Regulations and all that.

Or how about a "Dr. Eiienstein" type character ala Arsenic & Old Lace"?

"No please, Johhny, not the slow way. Do it the quick way. It will take him hours to die the slow way, and for what? He's just as dead as if we used the quick way. If it has to be done, better the quick way, without all the blood and screaming. I need a drink"

:lol:
 
Is this book solely about the actual land of Granbretan? I know that probably sounds stupid,given the title, but the Orkneys and Skahrland(?) are mentioned in the Granbretan section of the main Hawkmoon book.
Do they merit any space in this new book, or might they along with Yel and the land of Eire be deserving of a book in their own right?( or at least a series of S&P articles?)
 
The chapter describing the geography of Granbretan is only 10 pages, with 8 of those covering Londra and the south (including the Silver Bridge). Within the last two pages, Eire gets a paragraph, as does Yel, while the Orkneys get three.
 
Dear All,

Surely a good guy amongst the Beast Orders would really be thinking whether to use the bolt-cutters or the red hot knitting needles...?

All the best
 
gamesmeister started this thread with a review, but as I am in Review Mode, I might as well do Granbretan as well.

The cover has a very dark picture of a weird city, presumably Londra. There are other illustrations inside that aren't as dark as in Elric but are good.

What's in it? Chapter by Chapter .....

Introduction contgains a very silly snippet from a play, very Moorcockian in nature, where Hawkmoon assaults the Throneroom, sort of.

The History of Granbretan describes the past history of the land, with prehistory, the Tragic Millenium, including the Fixing of the Masks, The War of Abasement and The Madness of Granbretan. It's short, it's historical, it's good.

The Realm of Granbretan is written from the point of view of a tour guide, or rather Sir Malik of the Order of the Stag, who was assigned to guide Yuri Bogdanovitch from Muscovy. It is written from a first person point of view, which I don't really like, but does work here. It describes The Silver Bridge, Deau-Verre, The Home Counties, Londra, Osfoud, Gloster, Leodis, Maester & Skowse, New Castille, Edenbough, capital of Shkarlan, Yel & Cornwallis, Eire and The Orkneys. These sketches are short and don;t do a lot, but are atmospheric.

The Beast Orders describes the Beast Orders, the backbone of Granbretan. It briefly coveres the structure of the Beast Orders and describes the Revels of the King where three times a year, each Beast Order is recalled to Londra and take part in an orgy with another Beast Order where anything goes, including gang rape, cannibalism and torture. Granbretan is not for the fainthearted. There are 37 orders described, including the Order of the Lion that is now no more but is blamed for any unexplained deaths in Granbretan. Each Beast Order is described, with a Grand Constable, a description of the Order, Temple, Benefits and Skills.

The Lords of Granbretan covers 11 notables of Granbretan with stats! I'd thought that Mongoose had forgotten to inlcude the stats of notables in their supplements, but here they are! Amazing and welcome.

Equipment covers the typical equipment available to a citizen of Granbretan. It includes Masks and the lovely Fleshmasks (masks made of human faces skinned from their owners, so that Granbretans may walk around seemingly without a mask), Armour, Wonders of Science (Breathing Masks, Gas Bulbs, Glowlamps, Spyglasses, Stiltwalkers, Poisoners Gloves, Venomous Weapons), Poisons and Plagues (Anthrax, Bubonic Plague, Blessing of the Carnivore God, Infectious Dysentry, Melting Sickness, Burning Madness, Duellist's Delight, Green Death, The Hand of Friendship, The King's Evil, Malice and Serpent Venom) - Nice.

Scientific Sorcery covers the magic of Granbretan, with 19 spells, 10 Artefact Spells and brief rules for travelling the Multiverse.

Creatures and Foes covers exactly that. Here there are sample stats for slaves, servants, various courtiers, some of the Beast Orders, D-Beasts and strange magical beasts.

Mass Combat has rules for fighting battles. There are rules for units, different tactics and strategies. They seem complete enough, but I don't know how they work in play or how different they are from the standard RQ Battle rules.

The Course of the War covers a brief history of the War and also Granbretan's future plans. It very briefly describes other lands and what Granbretan expects to do to those lands. Characters & The War even describes how Granbretan plans to conquer other lands, with strategies and tactics.

Hunters of Granbretan is a scenario. What? A scenario? In a Mongoose RQ Product? How come? Well, it is a bit of a shock. Finding Notables with stats and a scenario in the same supplement is amazing. Anyway, Hunters of Granbretan in which the heroes must liberate an arcane sword from the city of Karlye.

Appendix consists of a list of spells from Hawkmoon and Granbretan and a summary of Battle tactics.

So, there it is, the majesty and madness of Granbretan.

What's missing? Well, it doesn't have a map, but actually doesn't suffer from this. One of the joys of reading Hawkmoon is working out where the strange places were and how they relate to our idea of Great Britain and Europe. So, Gloster is Gloucester and Londra is London and so on. having a map would actually spoil this. There aren't many oplaces described in Granbretan, which might mean that these are the only places that survived the events before the Tragic Millenium, but might mean that more are to be described in future supplements. I haven't got Hawkmoon yet, so I don't know if Flame Lances and similar things are described there, I would expect that they are.

Is it any good? Yes. It contains everything you really need to play in Granbretan or to use Granbretan citizens elsehwre in the world of Hawkmoon. It doesn't pull its punches, this is no PC version of the land. This is a land of sadistic, power-mad, insane perverts. Clearly, it is difficult to capture the feel of Granbretan or the books in a supplement, but this comes pretty close. Actually, the silly play at the start comes closest as it is a farce or comedy, which is what the Hawkmoon books really were. It uses the RQ rules and uses them well. It is well written and consistent. It is dark and malign.

Should you buy it? Well, if you are using the Hawkmoon setting and need to use the people of Granbretan then yes. If you want to use the sorcery in other Eternal Champion settings then yes. If you want to use its components in other games then perhaps. You could use the Scientific Sorcery in Jrustela easily enough, for instance.

So, I'd give this A, excellent, Buy It 90%.
 
Dear All,

I genuinely like the Mongoose 'Hawkmoon' books - very close in spirit to the novels. They don't have the sheer depth of detail of the French 'Hawkmoon Nouvelle Edition' version - but there are 16 odd volumes of that... however, Mongoose 'Hawkmoon' is a great start to the line.

Having gushed with praise, the only thing I would say that rankles and really has been done poorly in the Mongoose 'Hawkmoon' books is the whole aspect of Granbretanian Madness. Or rather the way it is almost totally side-stepped.

I feel handling the madness as a "legendary" ability, with resistance to a single Persistence or Resilience roll per day seems a kop-out - it simply doesn't say "madness" to me at all! Granbretanians should come across as amoral psychopaths, rather than being merely strong-of-purpose!

However, looking around in the MRQ published products, and particularly at 'RQ Pirates', that product's Vice system does seem a lot better fit (OK, not the 'Piety' one). It's a much more flexible and dark mechanic that is well suited to 'Hawkmoon' (although Insanity in the Elric Companion could also work - although I haven't seen those rules yet).

Besides that, the two Mongoose 'Hawkmoon' books are really very good. Plus there's a scenario.

Regards
 
The key difference (from my perspective) is that you're going to have player character Pirates with Vices, but you shouldn't* have player character Granbretanians with Madnesses. The Madness of Granbretan is primarily the province of the Games Master to roleplay, and therefore doesn't call out for extra mechanics. Vices are in the province of the player to roleplay, and so deserve emphasis in the rules.

(*: There's no formal rule against having Granbretanian PCs, but be very careful about it.)
 
Dear all,

I think my campaigns might be a tad more "adult" in tone than the standard.

I have no problem with Granbretanian PCs - I wouldn't recommend them for 14 year-old players, but then I'm not 14.

All the best
 
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