Gorn Fleet - Comments Welcomed
- Thread starter MongooseMatt
- Start date
WickedLance
Mongoose
Played three games with Gorn. Against Klingons and Tholians. There was one against Romulans too I think.
To basically summarize ALL THREE Fights:
Gorn: WOO! We got the Plasma Torpedo's off and blew up one and a half of their ships....Bring us about so we can---what do you mean we can't come around? They're right behind us! NO! CATCH THEM! CATCH TH--Oh never mind.
I basically get one good round of Plasma where a smart player reserves almost all phasers to shoot them down, and then sit behind/to the side of me peppering me until I die. I tried Tough with all three and it basically made all the opponents just stay in my back and shoot me. Sure it mitigated some damage if they strafed me on their fly by...
I like Tough. Lumbering on everything above a Destroyer bugs me though. I get it for the Albertosaurus and Dreadnought cause they're big boys....But the V-Raptor is a Fast Cruiser with Lumbering. That makes me never want to take it because it trades firepower for the fast trait....and it makes it a poorer choice in that regard.
What I think: I don't know if Tough or Wallowing is what the Gorn need. Taking lumbering off things below the Alberto would be nice....but any change to agility does nothing to really defend against a drone heavy fleet OR another plasma fleet. There simply isn't enough phasers to cut down the drones, even with IDF. It took 2 ships with IDF to cut down a single Romulan ship (blanking on name/class) firing all Plasma's at a single shop...then the rest of the romulan force blew it up. It would be a significant improvement, say, if there were more Phaser 3 dice to contribute to defense. I can deal with -1 initiative (even if I don't like it) if I had some more defensive measures to weather torpedo/drone fire.
I don't know the SFB fluff that well, but if Romulans/Klingons are the classic enemies of Gorn...then shouldn't they have developed something to defend significantly against Plasma/Drones, even if it's simply more banks of Phaser 3's? I'm really wondering about that.
Now, more Phaser 3 dice doesn't solve the "staying in my aft" issue that the Gorn run into against most races.....so I see two issues: No Defense against Drones, and 'They're in my Aft, OH GOD THEY'RE IN MY AFT.'
Just my thoughts.
To basically summarize ALL THREE Fights:
Gorn: WOO! We got the Plasma Torpedo's off and blew up one and a half of their ships....Bring us about so we can---what do you mean we can't come around? They're right behind us! NO! CATCH THEM! CATCH TH--Oh never mind.
I basically get one good round of Plasma where a smart player reserves almost all phasers to shoot them down, and then sit behind/to the side of me peppering me until I die. I tried Tough with all three and it basically made all the opponents just stay in my back and shoot me. Sure it mitigated some damage if they strafed me on their fly by...
I like Tough. Lumbering on everything above a Destroyer bugs me though. I get it for the Albertosaurus and Dreadnought cause they're big boys....But the V-Raptor is a Fast Cruiser with Lumbering. That makes me never want to take it because it trades firepower for the fast trait....and it makes it a poorer choice in that regard.
What I think: I don't know if Tough or Wallowing is what the Gorn need. Taking lumbering off things below the Alberto would be nice....but any change to agility does nothing to really defend against a drone heavy fleet OR another plasma fleet. There simply isn't enough phasers to cut down the drones, even with IDF. It took 2 ships with IDF to cut down a single Romulan ship (blanking on name/class) firing all Plasma's at a single shop...then the rest of the romulan force blew it up. It would be a significant improvement, say, if there were more Phaser 3 dice to contribute to defense. I can deal with -1 initiative (even if I don't like it) if I had some more defensive measures to weather torpedo/drone fire.
I don't know the SFB fluff that well, but if Romulans/Klingons are the classic enemies of Gorn...then shouldn't they have developed something to defend significantly against Plasma/Drones, even if it's simply more banks of Phaser 3's? I'm really wondering about that.
Now, more Phaser 3 dice doesn't solve the "staying in my aft" issue that the Gorn run into against most races.....so I see two issues: No Defense against Drones, and 'They're in my Aft, OH GOD THEY'RE IN MY AFT.'
Just my thoughts.
Keeper Nilbog
Mongoose
The -1 initiative is purely an ActA thing, as has been stated in many threads - whilst the Gorn have the reputation for being slow bricks, they actually only have maneuver issues at high speeds.
The other thing that is noticable as a difference is the 'Phaser-Plasma' relation in ActA. In the core systems, when shooting plasma's, you calculate all damage from phasers - then HALF it - then take it away from warhead strength. Due to this P-3's are not good at stopping plasma, as they generally only remove 2pts off it's warhead strength at best. The system in ActA, whilst simple and effective, makes any Phaser remove 1AD from a torp, so they are extremely effective anti-torp weapons (i can live with that - core Enemies for the Gorn are JUST Romulan's, who don't have massive phaser defenses until later models (Hawk Series), which generally don't carry as heavy a Plasma load, with worse fire arcs). That's why Gorn ships can generally put 40% of the P-1's into any arc, to deal with plasma. And as far as Drones are concerned, Gorn ships were never built to deal with Drones - that was the Furr-Ball/Pastie Heads secondary toys.
Basically, Gorn (and Romulan) ships have less weapon ranking on there boats, as they tend to just have Primary (Plasma) and Secondary (Phaser) systems - gives them an edge with Power Drain, as the Phaser's are all you have when reloading. The Other Powers have Primary, Secondary systems (usually drones) and then Phasers as a third system set. Unfortunatley, due to the way drones were ported over to ActA, they moved to a primary system that was hard to handle, whilst the Plasma actually lost a lot of it's power (SFB/FC - standard Drone = 12 Damage, Plas-F = 20 Damage, Plas-G 30 Damage, Plas-S 30 Damage and Plas-R 50 damage at close inpact range). Gorns, and to a lesser extent Romulan's, could never handle a drone heavy environment, but the fast flight system for the drones in ActA:SF stops the main tactic, which was wave deplietion. (maybe when working out DRone mounts on ships they should half the number of launchers (so a ship with 4AD current would only have 2AD) and remove the 'Targetting Channel rule - don't know. All i do know is plasma is a fearsome weapon due to the massive damage potental it has, which doesn't appear to have carried over - there too easy to stop.
The other thing that is noticable as a difference is the 'Phaser-Plasma' relation in ActA. In the core systems, when shooting plasma's, you calculate all damage from phasers - then HALF it - then take it away from warhead strength. Due to this P-3's are not good at stopping plasma, as they generally only remove 2pts off it's warhead strength at best. The system in ActA, whilst simple and effective, makes any Phaser remove 1AD from a torp, so they are extremely effective anti-torp weapons (i can live with that - core Enemies for the Gorn are JUST Romulan's, who don't have massive phaser defenses until later models (Hawk Series), which generally don't carry as heavy a Plasma load, with worse fire arcs). That's why Gorn ships can generally put 40% of the P-1's into any arc, to deal with plasma. And as far as Drones are concerned, Gorn ships were never built to deal with Drones - that was the Furr-Ball/Pastie Heads secondary toys.
Basically, Gorn (and Romulan) ships have less weapon ranking on there boats, as they tend to just have Primary (Plasma) and Secondary (Phaser) systems - gives them an edge with Power Drain, as the Phaser's are all you have when reloading. The Other Powers have Primary, Secondary systems (usually drones) and then Phasers as a third system set. Unfortunatley, due to the way drones were ported over to ActA, they moved to a primary system that was hard to handle, whilst the Plasma actually lost a lot of it's power (SFB/FC - standard Drone = 12 Damage, Plas-F = 20 Damage, Plas-G 30 Damage, Plas-S 30 Damage and Plas-R 50 damage at close inpact range). Gorns, and to a lesser extent Romulan's, could never handle a drone heavy environment, but the fast flight system for the drones in ActA:SF stops the main tactic, which was wave deplietion. (maybe when working out DRone mounts on ships they should half the number of launchers (so a ship with 4AD current would only have 2AD) and remove the 'Targetting Channel rule - don't know. All i do know is plasma is a fearsome weapon due to the massive damage potental it has, which doesn't appear to have carried over - there too easy to stop.
Keeper is right. Plasmas have been neutered in this game. A Gorn Cruiser should be able to run up to an equivalent sized enemy ship, tractor it, and blow it to plasma in one big salvo. We don't see that here in ACTA:SF.
I'm not sure exactly what to do about plasmas though. I can understand why they reduced plasma strength, being as plasmas in this game only require one Reload Special action, not two. In the core games, plasmas generally can only fire every third turn. Due to the short game length of a ACTA:SF game, the poor plasma ships would only fire maybe twice. But on the other hand any ship fired upon with a normal load of plasma at close range is in for a world of hurt, probably destroyed. Phasers are TOO effective against them. I'd day require 2 hits with phasers to remove 1 AD from a plasma. Or double the warhead.
Another issue is that plasma-users typically keep their speed way up in order to help evade torpedoes until they have weakened quite a bit. That also doesn't seem to have ported over very well. Best they can do is go All Power to Engines, and hope to make their die roll. Not very helpful.
So plasma users are stuck with a primary weapon that is too easy to shoot down, doesn't do enough damage when it does hit, and they can't easily outrun enemy plasmas.
As for drones, that's a tough one. The Gorns aren't designed to deal well with drones since their main enemy didn't use them. I can only think of 2 battles off the top of my head where Gorns faced Klingons (Defense of Tholia, and the scenarion Operation Calvary). Both times, they had friendly drone-heavy ships in attendance.
As for Lumbering, I think it was a mistake to include that trait.
I'm not sure exactly what to do about plasmas though. I can understand why they reduced plasma strength, being as plasmas in this game only require one Reload Special action, not two. In the core games, plasmas generally can only fire every third turn. Due to the short game length of a ACTA:SF game, the poor plasma ships would only fire maybe twice. But on the other hand any ship fired upon with a normal load of plasma at close range is in for a world of hurt, probably destroyed. Phasers are TOO effective against them. I'd day require 2 hits with phasers to remove 1 AD from a plasma. Or double the warhead.
Another issue is that plasma-users typically keep their speed way up in order to help evade torpedoes until they have weakened quite a bit. That also doesn't seem to have ported over very well. Best they can do is go All Power to Engines, and hope to make their die roll. Not very helpful.
So plasma users are stuck with a primary weapon that is too easy to shoot down, doesn't do enough damage when it does hit, and they can't easily outrun enemy plasmas.
As for drones, that's a tough one. The Gorns aren't designed to deal well with drones since their main enemy didn't use them. I can only think of 2 battles off the top of my head where Gorns faced Klingons (Defense of Tholia, and the scenarion Operation Calvary). Both times, they had friendly drone-heavy ships in attendance.
As for Lumbering, I think it was a mistake to include that trait.
I couldn't disagree more about the 'very gorn'. Whilst being tough may be something the Gorns have a (somewhat unwarranted) reputation for, the idea that they are tough only to the sides or rear is nonsensical. Sure it might make them better to play, but please try and make any changes fit in the with background/IP. Klingon front shields is a decent represnetation of what the klingons were originally like in SFU (front shields hugely better than their glass rear shields), Gorn 'tough' as currently mooted represents nothing about the Gorn in SFU.
A few extra damage, armored, or some ability to better withstand crits (from any direction) would be more in line with a general representation of being tough in the Gorn way.
One other issue - the drone mechanics are still the sticking/slow point of an otherwise quick and clean system. What's the quarter it is hitting? What's fired and what hasn't? What can still fire and what could come next? It seems as if the quick flowing system suddenly bogs at a series of micro-decisions. Drone defense slows the game down above and beyond all other mechanics combined and if fighters do the same, this will cease to be a quick game.
Could not agree more but this is the fast streamlined version to fit with the SFU and that gets flack for being too simplistic............ IMO direct fire missiles worked fine as is in B5 and NA.
Could not agree more but this is the fast streamlined version to fit with the SFU and that gets flack for being too simplistic............ IMO direct fire missiles worked fine as is in B5 and NA.
Captain Jonah
Mongoose
The core of the problem is that ACTA-SF is a new and separate system but being based on SFB is using ships that have an exact match in weapons and abilities.
Plasma races use Phasers to Defend against Plasmas and Drones but since the incoming is on the matt every ship can take a shot.
Also against plasmas you have (as has been mentioned) running away along with Wild weasels and the ability to turn fresh shields to face
The -1 Initiative is purely an ACTA-SF thing as is the massive turning problems.
We have a new system, new weapons (only the names are the same), new shields (single shield not facings) etc all of which interact in new ways but we are restricted to ships with exactly the same weapons fit as they have in SFB/FC.
This is the heart of the problem, its not that Plasma’s have been hit with the nerf bat or that Drones are grossly overpowered.
It is simply that each interacts with the other, the Phasers and with ships in a new way that the ships themselves are not built for.
30 years of SFB have evolved ships and weapons in many ways to deal with expected and actual threats.
SFB Gorn have problems facing an Uber Drone FED CVA group, not anywhere near the extent of ACTA-SF but still a problem. When you end up taking a carrier just so you can take an escort and a load of fighters to survive the Drones you know the Gorn have problems, that is in SFB where there are many more ways of dealing with Drones.
In ACTA-SF Drones teleport to the target as do Plasmas removing the last defence the Gorn have against them, mass fleet Phaser fire. In SFB/FC a Gorn squadron in formation will have a dozen or more Phasers in Arc to fire at a Plasma or Drones, here you need to use your only SA to have even a random chance of the same.
SFB has evolved over the years, many new ships, many new systems.
We are playing with a limited number of ships so far. As new ships arrive some of these problems will go away. Some of the current ships will also go away though. The ships are based on SFB/FC. Some of them are simply far less viable when exposed to an entirely new system. Time will tell (it already is) which ships are good and which will go the way of the Dodo.
Being able to add an escort to a fleet with 3 or 4 D-racks (that can be used to defend other people please guys otherwise the Plasma races really get a stick in the eye) costs you points for something that becomes an init sink in games against another plasma race but having in effect an escort with 4 re-loadable ADDs parked within 4” of your battle line is going to reduce the Drone threat significantly.
I know it has been said that ADD type weapons cannot be used to defend other ships, sorry guys that is the whole point of the escorts, to use the racks to defend other ships. Buying an escort with 3, 4 or 5 Phaser 1s that can make its IDF automatically is a bit of a waste of time, it is no more effective at defending another ship against Drones than can an equal sized ship of war, it just gives up heavy weapons for the ability to forgo the roll.
I know the game has been released, I know it is out in the world and should work. But it doesn’t.
Look on this as late Beta testing. We are finding and looking at the problems that exist, maybe solving them now while there is still a chance.
Oddly the problems Mongoose have had in getting the releases out may well be good for this game long term, it gives us all a good chance to sort things out and get an updated rules pack ready so when the production problems are sorted and the world gets a look at ACTA-SF there should be a lot less problems, which lead to complaints, which lead to loss of reputation, which lead to lack of sales, which kill the game.
Plasma races use Phasers to Defend against Plasmas and Drones but since the incoming is on the matt every ship can take a shot.
Also against plasmas you have (as has been mentioned) running away along with Wild weasels and the ability to turn fresh shields to face
The -1 Initiative is purely an ACTA-SF thing as is the massive turning problems.
We have a new system, new weapons (only the names are the same), new shields (single shield not facings) etc all of which interact in new ways but we are restricted to ships with exactly the same weapons fit as they have in SFB/FC.
This is the heart of the problem, its not that Plasma’s have been hit with the nerf bat or that Drones are grossly overpowered.
It is simply that each interacts with the other, the Phasers and with ships in a new way that the ships themselves are not built for.
30 years of SFB have evolved ships and weapons in many ways to deal with expected and actual threats.
SFB Gorn have problems facing an Uber Drone FED CVA group, not anywhere near the extent of ACTA-SF but still a problem. When you end up taking a carrier just so you can take an escort and a load of fighters to survive the Drones you know the Gorn have problems, that is in SFB where there are many more ways of dealing with Drones.
In ACTA-SF Drones teleport to the target as do Plasmas removing the last defence the Gorn have against them, mass fleet Phaser fire. In SFB/FC a Gorn squadron in formation will have a dozen or more Phasers in Arc to fire at a Plasma or Drones, here you need to use your only SA to have even a random chance of the same.
SFB has evolved over the years, many new ships, many new systems.
We are playing with a limited number of ships so far. As new ships arrive some of these problems will go away. Some of the current ships will also go away though. The ships are based on SFB/FC. Some of them are simply far less viable when exposed to an entirely new system. Time will tell (it already is) which ships are good and which will go the way of the Dodo.
Being able to add an escort to a fleet with 3 or 4 D-racks (that can be used to defend other people please guys otherwise the Plasma races really get a stick in the eye) costs you points for something that becomes an init sink in games against another plasma race but having in effect an escort with 4 re-loadable ADDs parked within 4” of your battle line is going to reduce the Drone threat significantly.
I know it has been said that ADD type weapons cannot be used to defend other ships, sorry guys that is the whole point of the escorts, to use the racks to defend other ships. Buying an escort with 3, 4 or 5 Phaser 1s that can make its IDF automatically is a bit of a waste of time, it is no more effective at defending another ship against Drones than can an equal sized ship of war, it just gives up heavy weapons for the ability to forgo the roll.
I know the game has been released, I know it is out in the world and should work. But it doesn’t.
Look on this as late Beta testing. We are finding and looking at the problems that exist, maybe solving them now while there is still a chance.
Oddly the problems Mongoose have had in getting the releases out may well be good for this game long term, it gives us all a good chance to sort things out and get an updated rules pack ready so when the production problems are sorted and the world gets a look at ACTA-SF there should be a lot less problems, which lead to complaints, which lead to loss of reputation, which lead to lack of sales, which kill the game.
Cap makes a lot of sense
I wonder if drones would have been better just hitting on 4's (5's over half range) but otherwise as is.................
The Escort auto IDF seems a good thing.
with admittingly only a couple of turns with a Gorn fleet agains the Fed - I think they could probably do ok against them - as long as they are low on drones - but as half the fleets seem go drone heavy thats not an option
I wonder if drones would have been better just hitting on 4's (5's over half range) but otherwise as is.................
The Escort auto IDF seems a good thing.
with admittingly only a couple of turns with a Gorn fleet agains the Fed - I think they could probably do ok against them - as long as they are low on drones - but as half the fleets seem go drone heavy thats not an option
I am reminded of a scene from Car Wars... can Mad Dog survive 3 turns of recoiless rifle fire, while he closes to range 3 or less with his heavy rocket?
Any time one side can kill/cripple enemy ships on turn 1 and without any movement taking place is a bad mechanic.
I love drone races. I played Kzin almost exclusively because of drones. I challenged a friend to pick 3 dreadnaughts and I would take one D5D. And I would win. Never even charged a disrupter.
Drones, especially it seems, here, are way overpowered and always have been.
I would rather deal with the record keeping of having drone counters on the table that everyone can shoot at and take time to move, than have 5 guys in a campaign all playing Kzin cause no other race can stand up to them.
When the Lyrans are introduced, they, at least, have a very effective anti-drone system. And then we're reduced to two medium turning, disrupter-based races. Hydrans are screwed... no way they could be competitive in this environment.
Any changes, do need to have future races taken into account as well.
Any time one side can kill/cripple enemy ships on turn 1 and without any movement taking place is a bad mechanic.
I love drone races. I played Kzin almost exclusively because of drones. I challenged a friend to pick 3 dreadnaughts and I would take one D5D. And I would win. Never even charged a disrupter.
Drones, especially it seems, here, are way overpowered and always have been.
I would rather deal with the record keeping of having drone counters on the table that everyone can shoot at and take time to move, than have 5 guys in a campaign all playing Kzin cause no other race can stand up to them.
When the Lyrans are introduced, they, at least, have a very effective anti-drone system. And then we're reduced to two medium turning, disrupter-based races. Hydrans are screwed... no way they could be competitive in this environment.
Any changes, do need to have future races taken into account as well.
I'm not so sure Hydrans are dead meat here. They've got Gatling phasers, as well as integral fighters which can be used to provide a drone screen (nearly all Hydran fighters mount a Gatling phaaser, which can take down 3-4 drones per fighter). Put them between the drone users and Hydran ships, and have an rule allowing them to use IDF automatically.
Not a big deal from my viewpoint, subject to change after we see what the Hydrans look like in this game.
Not a big deal from my viewpoint, subject to change after we see what the Hydrans look like in this game.
Judging by the coments over on the ADB boards, SFB/FC was always designed for 'historic' opponents and the Gorns and to a lesser extent Romulans were/are not expected to stand up to drone fleets until carriers/escorts etc. come along but even then, they are not very good v drones. Since 99% of ACTA-SF games will be scenario based at homes, clubs, cons etc., maybe we just live with the plasma races being mostly absent in any tournament setting?
For me, in particular, if I did IDF, they'd target the IDF ships (good tactics) and after the first drone wave, my one bearing Phaser 3 was used up, after two waves my tractors were used and some of my Phaser 1's and after wave three, I either had no Phaser 1's left for offense of I had taken multiple drone hits. In both games by the end of Turn 1, one of the CF's had shields below 50% and one of the DD's had none. After Turn 2 in versus the Kzinti one CF was gone, one was junk and the DN had taken multiple impulse hits to where it couldn't turn. (in retrospect, going IDF two turns in a row may have been better than reinforcing shields) Versus the Klingons the turn after firing plasma was a disaster as a substantial portion of my Phaser 1's went to drone defense while the Klingons were free to use their full weapons suites on shooting me and my reloading ships could not use the reinforce shields or IDF special action unless we wanted to completely give up on all offense. My full alpha strike plasma was also a disappontment as the Klingon player, neutering my Phaser 1's with having to defend against drones was able to IDF enough to limit the effect of the plasma strike while his disruptors were free to continue on offense. in both games, the turn by turn firepower exchange was decidedly one sided, even in my one 8-12" mass plasma launch but massively the turn after which having closed by neccessity meant my slow/no turning turkeys were essentially without offense, at close Phaser 1 KZ range, while reloading since without the plasma loaded and shields already reduced, we were essentially choosing between toothless or drone fodder.
My reluctant conclusion is that the plasma fleets simply do not have the weapons stats (which are identical in number to SFB/FC) to cope with ACTA drones which are far more virulent than SFB/FC drones while ACTA plasmas are far less nasty in return than their SFB/FC analog. It is going to take more than fixing the movement (why make a bad fleet less fun, fix it)or minor toughening (Ok idea, flavorful but relatively ineffectual) to make these fleets viable except against themselves. Overall I still think the main probelm is drones and short of quickly introducing ships and rules specific to countering them, (which might add further rules that slow things down), either something that allows phaser 3's to act in either permanent defensive mode and be used against each wave or something else to tone them down, we simply go with historic scenarios and not try and have the Gorn fight Klingons although the Romulans will, I believe, be permanent toast versus any Fed that sticks with the ever popular 'never take a fed ship with drone one' fleet rule of thumb.
For me, in particular, if I did IDF, they'd target the IDF ships (good tactics) and after the first drone wave, my one bearing Phaser 3 was used up, after two waves my tractors were used and some of my Phaser 1's and after wave three, I either had no Phaser 1's left for offense of I had taken multiple drone hits. In both games by the end of Turn 1, one of the CF's had shields below 50% and one of the DD's had none. After Turn 2 in versus the Kzinti one CF was gone, one was junk and the DN had taken multiple impulse hits to where it couldn't turn. (in retrospect, going IDF two turns in a row may have been better than reinforcing shields) Versus the Klingons the turn after firing plasma was a disaster as a substantial portion of my Phaser 1's went to drone defense while the Klingons were free to use their full weapons suites on shooting me and my reloading ships could not use the reinforce shields or IDF special action unless we wanted to completely give up on all offense. My full alpha strike plasma was also a disappontment as the Klingon player, neutering my Phaser 1's with having to defend against drones was able to IDF enough to limit the effect of the plasma strike while his disruptors were free to continue on offense. in both games, the turn by turn firepower exchange was decidedly one sided, even in my one 8-12" mass plasma launch but massively the turn after which having closed by neccessity meant my slow/no turning turkeys were essentially without offense, at close Phaser 1 KZ range, while reloading since without the plasma loaded and shields already reduced, we were essentially choosing between toothless or drone fodder.
My reluctant conclusion is that the plasma fleets simply do not have the weapons stats (which are identical in number to SFB/FC) to cope with ACTA drones which are far more virulent than SFB/FC drones while ACTA plasmas are far less nasty in return than their SFB/FC analog. It is going to take more than fixing the movement (why make a bad fleet less fun, fix it)or minor toughening (Ok idea, flavorful but relatively ineffectual) to make these fleets viable except against themselves. Overall I still think the main probelm is drones and short of quickly introducing ships and rules specific to countering them, (which might add further rules that slow things down), either something that allows phaser 3's to act in either permanent defensive mode and be used against each wave or something else to tone them down, we simply go with historic scenarios and not try and have the Gorn fight Klingons although the Romulans will, I believe, be permanent toast versus any Fed that sticks with the ever popular 'never take a fed ship with drone one' fleet rule of thumb.
OgreMkV said:
That's one heck of a wild assumption, they are one of the best Anti drone empires in SFU. They also have hellbores and fusions, both are good heavy weapons. Struggling to see how Hellbores (and PPDs to a lesser extent) convert, they are good in SFB/FC due to shield mechanincs that don't apply in ACTA except against klingons (maybe that will be there main ability - ignore klingons front shield rule
). Neither would I assume Lyans will be that uber automatically. ESGs are seriously power hungry, and can only withstand so many drones at a time. I can imagine them being something similar to a power drain to use/reload. At the very least I expect they are going to be a seperate weapon line, so power drain will leave them making hard choices as to what to fire, or going no more than 6".
Assuming a fairly direct convesion of PhGs at least the Hydran can choose fire all phasers whilst still having their full anti drone capability whilst moving 12" under power drains, Hydrans will also be pretty nasty offensively, as they dish out so much phaser damage - choose fire all phasers and rape anything they get base contact with after a 12" move even under a power drain, your average hydran cruiser will be outputting some 14 phaser shots at point blank range. The Buffalo Hunter is only a Destroyer, but it will output the equivalent of 12 phasers at point blank (plus its fusions and a couple of fighters).
Captain Jonah
Mongoose
Re Hydrans. The short range Hydran ships will need to get very close to use those Fusion beams but once they swing in with those Multihit 5 or 6 weapons on overload
Just about every Hydran ship had a Phaser G or two. That is a lot of firepower but it comes with limits.
Each needs to be a separate line on the chart of you are sunk because of the each line is a weapon system and each weapon system can fire only one in Defence OR offence.
Having a Phaser G 4AD (Phaser 3 stats) is great till you use it on one or two Drones and it’s gone for the turn. Having two of them on the same line is going to be cruel.
The Hydrans are capable (on paper, we haven’t seen them yet so are going on how things work in ACTA-SF and basing our guesses on the SFB/FC ships) of standing up to even a Drone heavy fleet. They will take loses but the Drone users will need to work at it since even a smaller Hydran ship should be able to shoot down 8 Drones at least a turn.
In fact the Kzinti will be complaining as much about Hydran fleets as the Gorn do about Kzinti ones.
The Lyrans, don’t know till we see what the ESG does. But unless someone goes badly of tract they should be fairly well protected to reflect SFB/FC.
The plasma races are the ones who have problems but as I said before, that is because the game mechanic is very different to the one the ships were designed for.
We cannot change the ships, what we can do is look at horde of ships not yet released for the plasma fleets and see how they survive. It is on the plasma side that the problem is to be found.
Having Plasma Fs with 3AD, Gs with 4AD, Ss with 6AD and Rs with 9AD makes them nasty, halving Phaser hits before subtracting Plasma AD makes them hard to stop, dying before you can get into range to fire makes them pointless.
Anything changed now must be both backward and forward balanced.
We cannot change how many Phasers or Plasmas or Drones a ship has, that is strictly based on SFB/FC. We cannot give the Gorn more Phasers, we cannot add systems that were never there (much as I would love to replace Fs with D-Racks on a few ships) What we can do is look at how they interact with each other which is difficult because we don’t have all the answers yet.
We probably need the rules for escorts and carriers and fighters to see how everything fits together and then we can see what effects a change makes, at present without knowing how some rules and weapons will work makes any major changes risky since we can make the problems worse in the long term.
Take scouts for example. They arrive this month. By the end of the month I’m sure people will be howling that the Photons are OP and need a nerf because Fed players are using scouts to get Photon re-rolls and people are losing BCHs and DNs at 15” to Photon storms.
I suspect people haven’t considered how much of a boost a scout gives a Flat top fleet compared to the other races, in particular Plasma scouts get to sit around and increase Initiative or jam the other sides scouts. Hardly the crushing force multiplier a Fed scout becomes
Just about every Hydran ship had a Phaser G or two. That is a lot of firepower but it comes with limits.
Each needs to be a separate line on the chart of you are sunk because of the each line is a weapon system and each weapon system can fire only one in Defence OR offence.
Having a Phaser G 4AD (Phaser 3 stats) is great till you use it on one or two Drones and it’s gone for the turn. Having two of them on the same line is going to be cruel.
The Hydrans are capable (on paper, we haven’t seen them yet so are going on how things work in ACTA-SF and basing our guesses on the SFB/FC ships) of standing up to even a Drone heavy fleet. They will take loses but the Drone users will need to work at it since even a smaller Hydran ship should be able to shoot down 8 Drones at least a turn.
In fact the Kzinti will be complaining as much about Hydran fleets as the Gorn do about Kzinti ones.
The Lyrans, don’t know till we see what the ESG does. But unless someone goes badly of tract they should be fairly well protected to reflect SFB/FC.
The plasma races are the ones who have problems but as I said before, that is because the game mechanic is very different to the one the ships were designed for.
We cannot change the ships, what we can do is look at horde of ships not yet released for the plasma fleets and see how they survive. It is on the plasma side that the problem is to be found.
Having Plasma Fs with 3AD, Gs with 4AD, Ss with 6AD and Rs with 9AD makes them nasty, halving Phaser hits before subtracting Plasma AD makes them hard to stop, dying before you can get into range to fire makes them pointless.
Anything changed now must be both backward and forward balanced.
We cannot change how many Phasers or Plasmas or Drones a ship has, that is strictly based on SFB/FC. We cannot give the Gorn more Phasers, we cannot add systems that were never there (much as I would love to replace Fs with D-Racks on a few ships) What we can do is look at how they interact with each other which is difficult because we don’t have all the answers yet.
We probably need the rules for escorts and carriers and fighters to see how everything fits together and then we can see what effects a change makes, at present without knowing how some rules and weapons will work makes any major changes risky since we can make the problems worse in the long term.
Take scouts for example. They arrive this month. By the end of the month I’m sure people will be howling that the Photons are OP and need a nerf because Fed players are using scouts to get Photon re-rolls and people are losing BCHs and DNs at 15” to Photon storms.
I suspect people haven’t considered how much of a boost a scout gives a Flat top fleet compared to the other races, in particular Plasma scouts get to sit around and increase Initiative or jam the other sides scouts. Hardly the crushing force multiplier a Fed scout becomes
Just a word of caution here - some of you chaps are making all sorts of presumptions about ships and weapons that have not yet appeared in the game. Don't want you getting your hopes up as they may well be acting very differently from what you think...
I hope they aren't acting too differently :|
Anyway, I think Captain Jonah is definitely on the right track, though I don't think I agree that a change to plasmas is the best route to go. It's going to have to be something in the rules, not the ships... though I would be a lot happier with 18" range for drones than what's effectively an autohit at 36".
Even something like a 1d6-2 hit might make drones less of a instakill on lighter ships.
And I definitely think that escorts should be able to cover every ship, perhaps even just those within 2"-3". That would be getting us into the spirit of what an escort ship is actually for. I always hated escorts in SFB, because there was no point to them. Not when the escorting ship was just as fast and had way more guns on it than (for example) a modern wet navy carrier.
That said, I always thought that plasma's were way more powerful than drones. They are faster, and the larger plasmas have way more damage potential than drones. It's that speed that makes them dangerous. Drones are just poking along at 8-16, while plasmas are at a full 32 (based on SFB).
Anyway, I think Captain Jonah is definitely on the right track, though I don't think I agree that a change to plasmas is the best route to go. It's going to have to be something in the rules, not the ships... though I would be a lot happier with 18" range for drones than what's effectively an autohit at 36".
Even something like a 1d6-2 hit might make drones less of a instakill on lighter ships.
And I definitely think that escorts should be able to cover every ship, perhaps even just those within 2"-3". That would be getting us into the spirit of what an escort ship is actually for. I always hated escorts in SFB, because there was no point to them. Not when the escorting ship was just as fast and had way more guns on it than (for example) a modern wet navy carrier.
That said, I always thought that plasma's were way more powerful than drones. They are faster, and the larger plasmas have way more damage potential than drones. It's that speed that makes them dangerous. Drones are just poking along at 8-16, while plasmas are at a full 32 (based on SFB).
Captain Jonah
Mongoose
msprange said:
Hummm
Phaser-G like a Phaser 3 on steroids.
Fusion beam, out damages a photon at 2", useless beyond 4"
Helbore, long range heavy weapon may ignore the Klink front shield rule and does weird things to ESGs.
ESG heavy weapon or maybe a trait like thing, protects from drones, does heavy damage during overruns.
If the Fusions are outranging Disruptors or ESGs stop plasmas you may well be hearing the sound of ladylike jackboots walking your way :twisted: :wink:
TJHairball
Mongoose
If you get to point blank range, i.e., tractor range, and unload an alpha strike on the enemy with them not boresighted and you boresighted before they do so to you, and they use all available defensive fire, a Gorn CL (175 points) expects to deal 43 raw damage to a King Eagle (175 points) nose to nose, destroying it instantly. A Sparrowhawk, with substantially more hull points than a King Eagle, expects to be five points ahead of crippled before you apply six critical hits to it (which will very often bring it to crippled). At which point it's essentially useless.billclo said:
If you park in the rear arc of a C7 and alpha strike it, it'll be seven points away from crippled ... plus six critical hits. Any smaller Klingon ship will go poof under those circumstances. That's with a CL attacking a heavy battlecruiser.
The problem is that you're never going to get there, and that IDF across a fleet can be rather more substantial.
I'll comment that right now, as is, if I'm using a Klingon ship with its front pointed towards a plasma ship 8" away, I expect to take 1.75-2 points per die (depending on the number of dice in a torpedo and rounding issues) and am actually giving up a little more than I expect to receive (1.67 Precise damage that can through-penetrate shields and therefore expects to apply 0.11 crits, or 0.28 crits on a target whose shields are down).
Battlegroup Murfreesboro has begun our Gorn play testing.
Earlier this week we played a couple of baseline games using the Gorn as is. Since we have not played them, we felt we should at least get in a game or two as is to determine their current capabilities.
Game one was 1,000 points of Gorn versus 1,000 points of Klingons.
Gorn: BCC, BC, BC, BCF, HDD
Klingon: C7, D7C, D5, D5, F5, E4, E4
Turn 1: Klingons win initiative and move an E4. Play follows with Gorn moving / Klingons moving; and the Klingons move the C7 last. All Klingon ships Boost shields, as do the Gorn.
Klingon drone fire proves to be a bit more than a nuisance as the Gorn are lacking in defenses. The drone control channel rolls helped a lot as the Klingons were forced to spread drone fire among several ships.
What few Gorn phasers remained, fired at the Klingons.
End results of Turn one, The Gorn suffered more shield damage than the Klingons did.
Turn 2: Klingons win initiative. Movement follows turn 1 example.
The E4s and F5 use IDF, the other 4 go APE.
The Gorn forces move to close the range hoping to plasma a couple of Klingons.
With the All Power to Engines and superior mobility, the Klingons are able to maneuver to positions where they have the advantage. The Gorn can at this point, bolt some torpedoes and hit, launch some and see them whittled away by distance and phaser fire, or hold them and hope for a better shot next turn. Having no experience with Gorn in ACTASF, the Gorn player elected to hold plasma launch.
Once again, drones are more than a minor nuisance as the Klingons have carefully positioned themselves so as to avoid over-lapping phaser arcs. Many drones were destroyed, but many hit as well. In addition, the Klingons managed a couple of phaser hits as well.
End result of fire: Gorn received more shield damage than the boosted shields gave so they suffered another net loss in shields.
The Klingons took some damage, but not enough to force anything to withdraw and repair shields.
Turn 3: Klingons win initiative. This time, they are close enough to get on the tail of the Gorn and try to stay there. The first E4 was to be the sacrificial cow. The HDD moved so as to centerline it.
This lead to a chain reaction movement as each successive ship lined up on the previously moved ship.
A veritable plethora of special actions were used this turn: Overload Weapons, Close Blast Doors, Launch Suicide Shuttle, IDF, Take Evasive Action…
Much mayhem ensued during the fire phase.
As before, the drones were quite deadly as taking them out meant that the Gorn had fewer phaser-1s for offensive fire. And the Klingon player was learning. Instead of launching at the biggest Gorn ship, he launched at the ship s that had already been nominated and fired.
The biggest surprise was the suicide shuttle. The poor little D5 captain freaked out and fired multiple phasers at it (thinking SFB instead of ACTASF) leaving him few phasers to defend against incoming plasmas… Ka-Boom!
Two of the 5 Gorn ships died this turn and 2 more were crippled. The BCC was relatively unscathed.
Two of the Klingons died and three more were severely damaged… but the Gorn were almost flat out of Plasma torps and the Klingons were able to rearm and fire disruptors next turn.
Turn 4: The Klingons won initiative… again… big surprise there.
And the Gorn player conceded.
Analysis:
The -1 initiative for Gorn and +1 for Klingons gives a +2 shift in favor of the Klingons and virtually guarantees the Gorn will be at a disadvantage.
Drones: Gorn suck at drone defense. Thank God for the 3 ship limit. Otherwise, I would have lost a ship a turn to drones alone.
Even though this was using Gorn as is, I kept an eye out for instances in which Tough or “Wallowing” would have had an effect. Having a bit more mobility to arrange fire/launch would have helped quite a bit as the Gorn could have delivered a greater weight of fire on each target.
Tough, since the Klingons intentionally tried for flanking shots, this also would have helped the Gorn survive. Longer, although not sure how long they would have lasted w/o being able to concentrate fire.
Earlier this week we played a couple of baseline games using the Gorn as is. Since we have not played them, we felt we should at least get in a game or two as is to determine their current capabilities.
Game one was 1,000 points of Gorn versus 1,000 points of Klingons.
Gorn: BCC, BC, BC, BCF, HDD
Klingon: C7, D7C, D5, D5, F5, E4, E4
Turn 1: Klingons win initiative and move an E4. Play follows with Gorn moving / Klingons moving; and the Klingons move the C7 last. All Klingon ships Boost shields, as do the Gorn.
Klingon drone fire proves to be a bit more than a nuisance as the Gorn are lacking in defenses. The drone control channel rolls helped a lot as the Klingons were forced to spread drone fire among several ships.
What few Gorn phasers remained, fired at the Klingons.
End results of Turn one, The Gorn suffered more shield damage than the Klingons did.
Turn 2: Klingons win initiative. Movement follows turn 1 example.
The E4s and F5 use IDF, the other 4 go APE.
The Gorn forces move to close the range hoping to plasma a couple of Klingons.
With the All Power to Engines and superior mobility, the Klingons are able to maneuver to positions where they have the advantage. The Gorn can at this point, bolt some torpedoes and hit, launch some and see them whittled away by distance and phaser fire, or hold them and hope for a better shot next turn. Having no experience with Gorn in ACTASF, the Gorn player elected to hold plasma launch.
Once again, drones are more than a minor nuisance as the Klingons have carefully positioned themselves so as to avoid over-lapping phaser arcs. Many drones were destroyed, but many hit as well. In addition, the Klingons managed a couple of phaser hits as well.
End result of fire: Gorn received more shield damage than the boosted shields gave so they suffered another net loss in shields.
The Klingons took some damage, but not enough to force anything to withdraw and repair shields.
Turn 3: Klingons win initiative. This time, they are close enough to get on the tail of the Gorn and try to stay there. The first E4 was to be the sacrificial cow. The HDD moved so as to centerline it.
This lead to a chain reaction movement as each successive ship lined up on the previously moved ship.
A veritable plethora of special actions were used this turn: Overload Weapons, Close Blast Doors, Launch Suicide Shuttle, IDF, Take Evasive Action…
Much mayhem ensued during the fire phase.
As before, the drones were quite deadly as taking them out meant that the Gorn had fewer phaser-1s for offensive fire. And the Klingon player was learning. Instead of launching at the biggest Gorn ship, he launched at the ship s that had already been nominated and fired.
The biggest surprise was the suicide shuttle. The poor little D5 captain freaked out and fired multiple phasers at it (thinking SFB instead of ACTASF) leaving him few phasers to defend against incoming plasmas… Ka-Boom!
Two of the 5 Gorn ships died this turn and 2 more were crippled. The BCC was relatively unscathed.
Two of the Klingons died and three more were severely damaged… but the Gorn were almost flat out of Plasma torps and the Klingons were able to rearm and fire disruptors next turn.
Turn 4: The Klingons won initiative… again… big surprise there.
And the Gorn player conceded.
Analysis:
The -1 initiative for Gorn and +1 for Klingons gives a +2 shift in favor of the Klingons and virtually guarantees the Gorn will be at a disadvantage.
Drones: Gorn suck at drone defense. Thank God for the 3 ship limit. Otherwise, I would have lost a ship a turn to drones alone.
Even though this was using Gorn as is, I kept an eye out for instances in which Tough or “Wallowing” would have had an effect. Having a bit more mobility to arrange fire/launch would have helped quite a bit as the Gorn could have delivered a greater weight of fire on each target.
Tough, since the Klingons intentionally tried for flanking shots, this also would have helped the Gorn survive. Longer, although not sure how long they would have lasted w/o being able to concentrate fire.
Game Two was a Federation versus Gorn match up.
Since I was busy fighting game one, I was not able to record as much of this game.
It was 1,000 points of Federation versus 1,000 points of Gorn.
This game went 5 turns with the Federation winning initiative 4 of the 5 turns.
The Fed fleet consisted of BC, NCA, DW, DWD, DWD, FFG, FFG
The Gorn Fleet consisted of: BCH, BC, BC, BDD, BDD, BDD (1,005 points, but allowed by his opponent)
Again, because of the lumbering trait and being limited to a single 45 degree turn per movement phase for half of their ships, the Gorn were sorely out-manuevered.
The Federation won initiative on turn one and that set the stage.
With three cheese-fest 4AD drone ships, the Gorn lost a BDD to drones and long range phaser fire.
Turn two: The fed again won initiative and the Gorn lost another BDD to drones and phasers.
Turn three: The Gorn finally won initiative, but by now the disparity in ship counts made this a pyrrhic win.
As things were now closer, the photons and plasma finally came into play.
The final BDD went down to massed drone and phaser fire while a BC fell to a massive barrage of every photon available.
The Gorn made a good showing by taking out a DWD, and FFG, and damaging the DW.
Turn 4: The Feds again won initiative and the Gorn were faced with a choice. Reload torpedoes, or attempt to get some ships out of the battlezone.
Since it’s now 2 Gorn ships versus 4.5 Federation ships, they chose to run for it.
Both Gorns went APE and moved their full complement of 16 inches straight ahead. This left some of the Federation ships out of position to follow, although they made the best of it.
The Federation split their fire between the two vessels hoping for criticals that would prevent the use of Maximum Warp Now on turn #5.
The BC was unlucky enough to lose all remaining shields to drones and take a few key critical hits, but not enough to prevent the use of Max Warp Now!
Turn 5: Again, the Feds won initiative.
Both Gorn declared Max Warp Now and moved 6 inches. The Feds closed in for the kill with several ships declaring the transport marines special action.
Between drones stripping shields, phasers scoring extra damage, and marines causing critical hits… both Gorn ships were crippled and could not escape.
The Gorn player surrended.
Final analysis:
Drones: The Gorn still suck at drone defense. The three ship limit helps, but not really if all three ships have a throw weight of 4AD each.
Even though this was using Gorn as is, I kept an eye out for instances in which Tough or “Wallowing” would have had an effect. Having a bit more mobility to arrange fire/launch would have helped quite a bit as the Gorn could have delivered a greater weight of fire on each target.
Tough: As most of the fire this game came in through the forward arc, it wouldn’t have made a big difference… but devastating +1 photon shots coming through the shields caused a great amount of the damage scored this game, so if it had come from the other arcs…
Since I was busy fighting game one, I was not able to record as much of this game.
It was 1,000 points of Federation versus 1,000 points of Gorn.
This game went 5 turns with the Federation winning initiative 4 of the 5 turns.
The Fed fleet consisted of BC, NCA, DW, DWD, DWD, FFG, FFG
The Gorn Fleet consisted of: BCH, BC, BC, BDD, BDD, BDD (1,005 points, but allowed by his opponent)
Again, because of the lumbering trait and being limited to a single 45 degree turn per movement phase for half of their ships, the Gorn were sorely out-manuevered.
The Federation won initiative on turn one and that set the stage.
With three cheese-fest 4AD drone ships, the Gorn lost a BDD to drones and long range phaser fire.
Turn two: The fed again won initiative and the Gorn lost another BDD to drones and phasers.
Turn three: The Gorn finally won initiative, but by now the disparity in ship counts made this a pyrrhic win.
As things were now closer, the photons and plasma finally came into play.
The final BDD went down to massed drone and phaser fire while a BC fell to a massive barrage of every photon available.
The Gorn made a good showing by taking out a DWD, and FFG, and damaging the DW.
Turn 4: The Feds again won initiative and the Gorn were faced with a choice. Reload torpedoes, or attempt to get some ships out of the battlezone.
Since it’s now 2 Gorn ships versus 4.5 Federation ships, they chose to run for it.
Both Gorns went APE and moved their full complement of 16 inches straight ahead. This left some of the Federation ships out of position to follow, although they made the best of it.
The Federation split their fire between the two vessels hoping for criticals that would prevent the use of Maximum Warp Now on turn #5.
The BC was unlucky enough to lose all remaining shields to drones and take a few key critical hits, but not enough to prevent the use of Max Warp Now!
Turn 5: Again, the Feds won initiative.
Both Gorn declared Max Warp Now and moved 6 inches. The Feds closed in for the kill with several ships declaring the transport marines special action.
Between drones stripping shields, phasers scoring extra damage, and marines causing critical hits… both Gorn ships were crippled and could not escape.
The Gorn player surrended.
Final analysis:
Drones: The Gorn still suck at drone defense. The three ship limit helps, but not really if all three ships have a throw weight of 4AD each.
Even though this was using Gorn as is, I kept an eye out for instances in which Tough or “Wallowing” would have had an effect. Having a bit more mobility to arrange fire/launch would have helped quite a bit as the Gorn could have delivered a greater weight of fire on each target.
Tough: As most of the fire this game came in through the forward arc, it wouldn’t have made a big difference… but devastating +1 photon shots coming through the shields caused a great amount of the damage scored this game, so if it had come from the other arcs…
