Gorn Fleet - Comments Welcomed

[McKinstry]

To test the new alternate Gorn rules, we will be playing two 1500 point games with the Gorn on Sunday and need a suggestion for a fleet. I will use the same fleet for both games.

Both games will be on identical terrain (rolled up according to the rules).

The first game will be Gorn v Kzinti testing Tough, the second Gorn v Klingons testing Wallowing.

We may allow the fleets to roll random crew quality or allow a small number of increased crew quality for each fleet (two 5's or one 6 per fleet).

I want a fleet that includes cruisers as the rules have to be tested using lumbering. I'm open to the Dreadnought.

Suggestions?

 

[storeylf]

That said...might still need to figure a way for a Gorn fleet to be able to take enough turns so they don't fly themselves off the table.

That would be pivot on the spot woudn't it.


If you want to make them tougher can you not just boost their shields or damage rating, or give them the armored trait. I'm not overly keen on more special rules, with the ambiguities that willl no doubt go with them based on mongooses writing style. Unfortunately there isn't even a rule to playtest yet, just a concept!


Half damage on hull:
Is it per weapon system or type?
is it applied before or after rolls for bulkheads?
Does it include extra damage from criticals?
When does any rounding apply, before or after bulkheads/cricicals etc?

For future complexity:
How will hellbores and PPDs (assuming you keep some form of damage wrapping) interact with this rule?


Struggling to see scoutdads change as being much more than throw away lumbering, when would a lumbering gorn ship be making more than 2 turns with the 2nd at the end of the move anyway if you got rid of lumbering (power to engines is the only thing I can think of)? May as well as just word it as they don't do HETs as well, and ignore the whole turning bit.

 

[Madstoat]

That said...might still need to figure a way for a Gorn fleet to be able to take enough turns so they don't fly themselves off the table.

That would be pivot on the spot woudn't it.


If you want to make them tougher can you not just boost their shields or damage rating, or give them the armored trait. I'm not overly keen on more special rules, with the ambiguities that willl no doubt go with them based on mongooses writing style. Unfortunately there isn't even a rule to playtest yet, just a concept!


Half damage on hull:
Is it per weapon system or type?
is it applied before or after rolls for bulkheads?
Does it include extra damage from criticals?
When does any rounding apply, before or after bulkheads/cricicals etc?

For future complexity:
How will hellbores and PPDs (assuming you keep some form of damage wrapping) interact with this rule?


Struggling to see scoutdads change as being much more than throw away lumbering, when would a lumbering gorn ship be making more than 2 turns with the 2nd at the end of the move anyway if you got rid of lumbering (power to engines is the only thing I can think of)? May as well as just word it as they don't do HETs as well, and ignore the whole turning bit.

I thought it was rather clear the Gorn Tough rule is exactly like the Klingon rule but only applied to shots from the P/S that hit the hull. So roll to hit weapon system by weapon system. Any hits in the shields are resolved as normal. Any hits that bypass the shields or any hits on a shieldless ship are then halved. Then roll damage and crits.

 

[storeylf]

I thought it was rather clear the Gorn Tough rule is exactly like the Klingon rule but only applied to shots from the P/S that hit the hull. So roll to hit weapon system by weapon system. Any hits in the shields are resolved as normal. Any hits that bypass the shields or any hits on a shieldless ship are then halved. Then roll damage and crits.

Maybe, I read the musings on the other forum and didn't even see that it was definatly P/S, or F/P/S. Or whatever. It came over as just that, musings.

Conceptually I can accept the Gorns being 'tough' but I dislike the suggestion as it seems to stand. It makes no sense to me. Why do photons do less damage on the side hull? If it is because the gorns put more armor or 'structure' there then just make them armored, so more hits end up as bulkhead. If it somehow represents the gorn ships being better able to take more damage then just up the damage rating. Further special rules to represent something that can already be reperesented seems wrong.

 

[Totenkopf]

So in short, storyelf is against all additional special rules for the Gorns but favors increase in damage points or crit threshold.

 

[WickedLance]

I plan to test it out Saturday.

As it stands, I like it. Subtle, but it affects strategy.

 

[storeylf]

So in short, storyelf is against all additional special rules for the Gorns but favors increase in damage points or crit threshold.

Not necessarily, I dislike the currently mooted 'tough', as I think it can be better represented with existing traits or stat changes. The P/S thing just strikes me as odd as well.

Not to say I'm against 'all' special rules, but you don't need special rules to have empire specific advantages.


If I was going to have a 'special rule' to represent being tough I'd have gone for something like ignores devastating crits (ie they are just normal) due to all the increased redundancy and damage control systems in place to keep their ships trucking. Or maybe a bonus to repair to represent the same sort of thing.

 

[Keeper Nilbog]

The original suggestions were along the lines of making the Gorn ships harder to Cripple, but as most of them are near the proposed level (which was 1 quarter damage rate), the only ship that really gained by more than a few points was the DN.

So i take it the the Klingon shield rule is one that you don't agree with either, as to be fair the movement abilities of the Klingon ships are greatly increased in ActA:SF, so why the extra rule for the shield (it's ment to show that Klingons have better front shields than other facings - the 6/1/2 shields in SFB/FC), but as the shield strength is factored in (based on boxes :? ), that shouldn't matter.

Adding the Klingon shield rule to Gorn ships side arcs for hull doesn't cause to many difficulties (and i'm still trying to work out why Photons are devestating, as theyare effective in SFB/FC due to the amount of damage points they can cause, not the crippling effect on the target ship - plasma and drones, yes to devestating, as they both lost damage grades in translation, but why Photons :?: )

 

[McKinstry]

I do think simply giving them the armored trait would accomplish much the same thing only keeping it simpler.

It still does not account for the -1 initiative which from what I can tell has no real SFU/FC basis and is a burden this already handicapped fleet does not need.

 

[Keeper Nilbog]

You kown why we're tough on our flanks :?

It's that we've managed to route a small amount of plasma over them so the crew can have tosted tribbles for lunch (Tribbles overseen by the noble and fearless Lemming, who valiantly protect the tribble from getting too burnt, whilst adding more protein). So your not actually hitting the ship

- your cooking our lunch :lol: :evil: :lol:

this is also responsible for the horrendous drag on our ships, making turning an issue, as we don't want to waste lunch, now do we

 

[Crool009]

one quick question about lumbering .why dont you drop the no het rule and a few more hull(4-8 depending on ship size for the gorn ). lumbering was something people had to put up with in b5 and in that system you could only turn at the end of your movement .i was a dilgar player and my fleet came in two flavoers fast and agile but not much hull or slow and lumbering with great hull

 

[Keeper Nilbog]

The problem is that Lumbering as 'standard' rule for the big boys, so un less you want DN's HET'ing you need to be careful. The main issue in regard to Gorns and Lumbering is the fact that in the source material they just aren't that unmaneuverable - about as good as a federation ship generally (worse at speed if i remember. That said, Klinogon's are far more maneuverable under ActA than the core material). Lumbering seems to have been added to the fleet as a 'racial flavour', but it seems little to balance that out was noted during playtest ( :? :roll: :? ), and with the -1 Initiative, they became uncompetative.

Hullwise, by class, current Gorn ships come near the bottom when compared with the other fleets, so reducing hull on the non lumbering ships would tend to result in many dead Gorn ships. As has been said before, the option of increasing the 'cripple' value of ships has been mentioned many times, but it generally worked out as a poor boost to all by the DN (with i think lost around 13pts off it's crippled figure, most others lost 1-3, 4 at most).

Interesting idea of the 2 style of fleet, but to be fair a fast 'raptor' pack fleet would probably still need a few of the 'BIG BOYS' (cruiser up) for the kill option, and i'm not sure the lumbering but tough thing applies to them at present.

Most fleets will contain BBD, HDD and the odd few CM's as the lumbering option, these being the cream of the current fleet. DD, BCH and BCF might make it. I don't think that CL or DN will see much if any table time (though the DN does still have the 'OMG' factor if you ever get stuck in front of it). even then, 2 KC9R (which will happen - or even one) are a far more scary option due to the maneuverablility issues.

 

[Captain Jonah]

You kown why we're tough on our flanks :?

It's that we've managed to route a small amount of plasma over them so the crew can have tosted tribbles for lunch (Tribbles overseen by the noble and fearless Lemming, who valiantly protect the tribble from getting too burnt, whilst adding more protein). So your not actually hitting the ship

- your cooking our lunch :lol: :evil: :lol:

this is also responsible for the horrendous drag on our ships, making turning an issue, as we don't want to waste lunch, now do we

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Good one :lol:

 

[walkerd]

My preference would be neither but instead one of the original suggestions such as 4+ save against critical hits. In the original SFB Gorns had a lot Central Hull, not just Front and Rear, now it has been a long time, but the effect of this is with two ships that have received equal damage. the Gorn would have more working weapons and power.

Gorns die harder.

 

[TJHairball]

Gorn seem still pretty weak. We played a test match with the toughness rule, which I liked in and of itself, but it ended with a sound thrashing for the Gorn.

 

[scoutdad]

Guys will begin arriving soon for our Gornfest session.
Updates to follow.

 

[McKinstry]

Longer post to follow BUT, we played two games at 1500 points for the assasination scenario, one versus Kzinti and one versus Klingon. Bottom line, until the ridiculous net -2 versus everyone else and something for drone defense for the plasma fleets gets fixed, this is an uncompetitive fleet.

I've been playing this game since January and enjoying it but today was a miserable boring time fot both players.

 

[Da Boss]

Longer post to follow BUT, we played two games at 1500 points for the assasination scenario, one versus Kzinti and one versus Klingon. Bottom line, until the ridiculous net -2 versus everyone else and something fot drone defense for the plasma fleets gets fixed, this is an uncompetitive fleet.

I've been playing this game since January and emjoying it but today was a miserable boring time fot both,

Managed to get in a couple of turns against Fed fleet today before we had to stop - killed a Constitution class with 11 dice of plasma to the face which was quite pleasing.

Totally agree that the Gorns are def weak esp versus Drone heavy fleets - although the 3 ship limit helped in this game alot - against high drone carrying ships it would not have.

However I don't agree that the Fleet Initiative is ridiculous - used to playing ACTA games with much higher differentials - if the rest of the fleet is balanced and effective it should be ok...but the rest needs to be fixed.

 

[Captain Jonah]

I spent the afternoon playing two games, Fed vs Gorn.

Not min maxed fleets but ones with a bit of character: :wink:

Gorn, CC, BC, BC, HDD, DD, DD
Fed BCH, NCA, NCL, CS, OCL, FFG

Since it was a very nice afternoon, the sun was shining, nice and warm and not a cloud in sight I set up on my balcony. Very pleasant way to spend a Sunday afternoon 8)

First battle was with lumbering as normal but I kept an eye on fire in the S/P arcs against the Gorn to see if it would have made much difference.

In part due to an insane photon salvo at range 12-14 which left my CC a mess I started badly and it went downhill from there. I charged the Feds who retrograded then broke past me leaving me with three cruisers spending several turns painfully trying to turn round while my light stuff was shot to bits. Comprehensive Fed win. I’ll post photos and a more detailed report later.

Would tough have made a difference, some. The small stuff was hit from every angle but most of the damage the Cruisers took was from the front or back.

Only the Drones generally hit the cruiser sides so “tough” would have helped here a bit but with the Drone waves limited to 8 AD at best Tough would not have helped much. Against a stronger Drone force tough on the sides and rear would have been much more useful I think.

Side note Photons through shields were the biggest threat to start with then later on the ability of the Feds to wear down and destroy the smaller ships with Drones. A lot of the damage on the Gorn came from Phasers while the Gorn had to hold back Phasers against the Fed spreading Drones around. You cannot afford to fire all Phasers and then have a Few Drones hit you. Every Gorn Phaser fired was a potential 1D6 damage coming back from Drones.


Second battle was with Tony “Scoutdads” movement changes.

As before both fleets set up and advanced. This time I held back my cruisers and took the long range photons on the DDs then charged in turn 2 and blew the BCG into plasma by centre lining it with both BCs and the CC after tractoring it with the CC.
After this the remaining feds broke past apart from the NCA that was that tractored that turn by the barely functioning CC.

I lost the HDD and both DDs but the battle ended with my unscratched BCs chasing the remaining fed NCL and CS around the map. Had it gone on a few turns longer I would have cut the corners enough to start throwing plasmas at the Fed ships while they could not bring photons to bear without stopping which meant I could catch them and kill one with a full plasma strike.

A much better battle and a few more turns would have been a Gorn victory as I either closed on the Feds or they fled.

Being able to match the feds for turning combined with the wider plasma arcs made a big difference. After the two fleets passed through each other I was able to get plasma hits while avoiding most of the photons and by taking out the BCG the Fed drones were reduced to a nuisance at best.

A heavier Drone fleet would have made it harder to win rather than Lumbering all but Impossible.

Speaking as a Gorn I like tough, its fleet character, it’s fun and its very GORN. I think it needs to cover the rear as well so its S/A/P arcs otherwise all that happens is an enemy that can move works to get into the A arc of the target and fires from there, it’s a bit harder to kill the lumbering Gorn just from the rear but only for the Feds. I doubt the Klingon’s would have any trouble.

I'll try the P/S/A tough later in the week and try to get in some Klingon games.

At present I would say the increased movement is better but two games is hardly an exhaustive test. :wink:

Looking forward to Scoutdads mob reporting in :lol:

PS. Tough covering the sides and rear will be of great use against the Klingons and Romulans countering the much greater mobility they have. However since it is Hull damage being halved the Feds come of worse since those huge Photon and Phaser salvos going through the shields are halved before rolling for crits. It would seem to give the gorn a good change against the Klngons, Romulans and Kzinti but leaves the Feds at a disadvantage.
Care needs to be given to not reducing the effectiveness of the Feds.

PPS Re above. Drone heavy Feds do much better against both mobile and all round tough Gorn but this does mean that balancing the Gorn pushes the Feds more into the Drone heavy fleets and Fed Drone 1 ships become all but extinct (which seems to be happening anyway so no change there then :roll: ).

 

[McKinstry]

Both games - 1500 points, Assasination Scenario, terrain rolled at random and used for both games. X-axis horizontal using numeric, y-axis vertical using alpha ascending we had a medium planet in D2, a dust cloud in B1 and a density 6 asteroid field in A3.

First game - Gorn using the 'tough' proposed rule.
Gorn fleet - 3 DD, 1 HDD, 2 CF, 1 BCN, 1 DN
Kzinti - 3 DW, 5 NCA, 1 x NCC

Kzinti win initiative for set up

Turn 1 - Kzinti win initiative. The Gorn head straight for the Kzinti (angling a bit to the port side). The Kzinti sit still. Gorns attempt IDW special actions across the board. Kzinti drones knock the shields down on one DD and about 50% on a CF. Range too great for any Gorn fire.

Turn 2 - Kzinti win initiative. Gorn continue to advance directly at Kzinti fleet (again angling slighly to port for side arcs), Kzinti continue to sit still or slide to remain outside of 12". Gorns take reinforce shields for those ships suffering shield damage, IDW for the others. Range generally around 14-20". Turn 2 firing - One Gorn CF destroyed, One Gorn CF crippled, Gorn DN receives two impulse crits, can no longer turn. Kzinti NCA receives minimal damage.

Turn 3 - Kzinti win initiative. Gorn DN destroyed, remaining CF destroyed, Gorns break off, diminimus damage to Kzinti, no Gorn ship gets within 12" to fire plasma.

Game 2 - same terrain, same starting sides, same assasination scenario
Gorn fleet - same as before except using wallowing rule
Klingon fleet - 1 x C8, 6 x D5, 2 X E4

Klingon wins set up initiative, Gorn set up first

Turn 1 - Klingon wins initiative, Gorns move directly towards the Klingon fleet, Klingons sit still. Gorns all try IDF. Firing round leaves 1 x DD, 1 xCF with some shield damage from drones, Gorns out of range.

Turn 2 - Klingon wins initiative, Both Gorns and Klingon close virtually head on. Gorns reinforce shields, Klingons IDF. Firing round, Gorns fire most of their plasma in the 8"-12" band killing 1 D5 and knocking about 50% of the C8's shields back. Klingons destroy one CF, knock back about 50% of the Gorn DN's shields and scatter two criticals on the DN, both level one, neither serious.

Turn 3 - Klingon wins initiative. Gorns try and blow by but Klingons back up. Gorns mostly reloading, Klingons mostly reinforce shields (great roll restores the C8 shields almost fully). Firing round cripples Gorn DN to within 2 hit points of destroyed, multiple impulse hits in place. Gorn HDD shields falttened, remaining Gorn CF shields flattened. Additional D5 rendered minimal shields from criticals, minor damage to C8.

Turn 4 - Klingon wins initiative. Gorn DN tries to head for board edge and reinforce shields, CF tries to tutn back along far edge to assist, BCH unfazed but Klingons slip out of his from arc. DD's other than HDD circle towards hurting D5. Klingons destroy DN and HDD, added damage to additional D5's but nothing dramatic - Gorns breaking off

This is my first time ever playing a Gorn fleet and I'm sure others could do better but...

Opinion - The -1 initiative for the Gorn coupled with all their historic enemies (Klingon and Romulans) having a + 1 essentially gives the Gorn a permanent -2 for initiative. I'm unaware of this being an SFU standard and in the 8-12 turn games of ACTA, this is cripplingly bad and most of all, setting up first, moving first and shooting last all the time was not fun.

'Wallowing' was much much better than 'tough'. The Gorn fleet actually felt as if it could get into decent firing positions and I at least got to fire plasma using 'wallowing'. 'Tough meant nothing when the other guy had no problem staying over 12" away and easily keeping to front (or rear for the Klingons on blow through and turn manouvers). The Gorn still have issues even with 'wallowing' but the were a whole lot more competitive and at least a little bit fun as they weren't simply a Kzinti pinata.

Every ship in the Gorn fleet except one had one whole Phaser 3 per side for dealing with drones and the exception had two per side. Tractors were good for one firing and only 50% effective. The Gorns had to use Phaser 1's for dealing with drones which given their arcs, reducued their already meager offensive Phaser power considerably and in a reloading turn, the Gorns choices came down to seeing shields flattened or opting for an essentially defense only turn every other turn. The Klingons one the other hand, freed of any drone concern at all, went IDF and significantly diminshed the vaunted Gorn plasma fusliade. If there is a viable strategy against any remotely heavy (2+ per ship average) drone fleet, I'm not seeing it offhand. Going IDW when in the midst of the Klingon fleet on turn 2 offered Hobb's choice of passing up offense or getting drone crunched. I chose offense and the drones crushed my shields. Against the Kzinti it was so lopsided I'm not sure anything would have helped given that I was never in plasma range.

Bottom line - I don't see the Gorns competing against Kzinti, Klingon or a Fed fleet chosen to be drone heavy, even with the 3 ship limit simply because they are so defenseless. Wallowing helps but the built in -2 initiative (is that really an SFU canon fluff thing?) and inability to deal with even moderate drones still renders them uncompetitive but at least wallowing offers a little fun while getting slaughtered.

One other issue - the drone mechanics are still the sticking/slow point of an otherwise quick and clean system. What's the quarter it is hitting? What's fired and what hasn't? What can still fire and what could come next? It seems as if the quick flowing system suddenly bogs at a series of micro-decisions. Drone defense slows the game down above and beyond all other mechanics combined and if fighters do the same, this will cease to be a quick game.