Gilgamesh, the Orlanthi, and the Bad Fan of Glorantha

[GianniVacca]

I have just read the Epic of Gilgamesh. It is a short but incredibly -er - epic text, quite moving also at times, when one thinks for instance that it is probably the most ancient literary text on earth.

I will not go into telling the Epic of Gilgamesh here (just use your Google fu skill). What interests me is its implications in Gloranthan terms. Obviously Uruk and, more generally, Mesopotamia are the big source for Dara Happa, in terms of pantheon, clothing, the way cults and city life are intertwined, etc.
The Mesopotamian cities were rich in grain and very civilised, but they were poor in timber and metal. They would trade with the peoples from the wooden hills to the north and to the east their grain and their goods for timber and metal. This trade would sometimes degenerate into raiding and pillaging.

My thought was-- well if Mesopotamia is Dara Happa with her mighty river and her Sun gods, then where are the Orlanthi with their wooden hills and their storm gods? The obvious answer seemed to be Elam and Urartu. Alas, the Orlanthi in Glorantha do not look like Elamites and Hurrites at all. As we all know, they are more like faux Celts and/or Saxons. Call me a bad fan of Glorantha, but I've never liked the way the Orlanthi were depicted. Now that I've read the Epic of Gilgamesh, I like it even less. Am I the only one?

 

[richaje]

My thought was-- well if Mesopotamia is Dara Happa with her mighty river and her Sun gods, then where are the Orlanthi with their wooden hills and their storm gods? The obvious answer seemed to be Elam and Urartu. Alas, the Orlanthi in Glorantha do not look like Elamites and Hurrites at all. As we all know, they are more like faux Celts and/or Saxons. Call me a bad fan of Glorantha, but I've never liked the way the Orlanthi were depicted. Now that I've read the Epic of Gilgamesh, I like it even less. Am I the only one?

Mesopotamian religion and mythology is a big source of ideas for my (and Greg's) Glorantha. It is worth emphasizing that the Orlanthi are NOT Celts or Saxons. It is certainly ok to draw on those RW cultures (or others, such as the Elamites or Hurrites) to get an image of them, but if you rely on that too much, you will invariably get it wrong.

FWIW, the Enûma Eliš has been influential on several Orlanthi myths (including Orlanth and Aroka and Orlanth and Sh'arkazeel), as have some of the Rigvedic hymns. Although the Icelandic sagas have been influential for my understanding of the Orlanthi heroic society, the Eddas have not.

Jeff

 

[Cleombrotus]

As we all know, they are more like faux Celts and/or Saxons. Call me a bad fan of Glorantha, but I've never liked the way the Orlanthi were depicted. Now that I've read the Epic of Gilgamesh, I like it even less. Am I the only one?

You're not the only one. I've always tried to treat the Orlanthi like Thracians. Of course I say that, but it's easier said than done. I have about three artist impressions of Thracian barbarians. They fit my Ancient Greek bias to Glorantha, but Celts are so much more accessible. It's one thing to say to players that the Orlanthi are like Mesopotamians, but how many people REALLY know what you mean, as they purse their lips, sagely nod and act like they know exactly what you're talking about?

I think that the very term Orlanthi is evocative in itself, as is the notion of a Storm pantheon. I think that if you steer away from tartan, names with the prefix Mac/Mc and never say the word 'Celt', then the Orlanthi have a character all their own.

 

[richaje]

I think that the very term Orlanthi is evocative in itself, as is the notion of a Storm pantheon. I think that if you steer away from tartan, names with the prefix Mac/Mc and never say the word 'Celt', then the Orlanthi have a character all their own.

I agree. And Greg and I never envision Orlanthi as wearing tartans (breeches or naked), never use the prefix Mac/Mc, and never say the word `Celt´when writing about them.

Here's a few descriptions of Orlanthi kings (in the Second Age) that Greg and I wrote for History of the Heortling Peoples:

"King Androrfin. The king’s character is such that not even those envious of his power can belittle its praise. His height is medium, so that neither does he appear great among the small, nor yet does he seem small among the great... curved legs, a horseman's shins, broad chest, and a boxer's arms all announce him as a man strong, agile and bold... he never sits, unless riding a horse or eating... In a single day, if necessary, he can run through four or five day-marches and, thus foiling the plots of his enemies, frequently mocks their plots with surprise sudden arrivals. Always are in his hands sword, spear, bow and arrow, unless he be in council. His hair and beard is reddish, curling a little above his forehead... His eyes are sharp and piercing and grow bloodshot in anger. He has a stormy countenance and a harsh, cracked voice. His teeth are even and snow-white in color."

"King Andrin. The personal appearance of the Hendriking king, whose name is Andrin and is nicknamed “the Mover”, was as I shall now tell you. He was big and strong, with chestnut hair and a rather ugly nose. His eyes all but emitted sparks of fire. His skin was marked with many tattoos so that he appeared to be painted. He was very manly, an impetuous fellow by nature, ambitious, stubborn in all situations and ruthless. He was a gifted poet and magician."

"Rastalulf Vanak Spear. Rastalulf was not a handsome man. He had dark hair and brooding brown eyes, but he was a great speaker and never at a loss for words. His loyalty to his friends and his generosity to his supporters were legendary. He was quick in mind and quicker in action - he once said that it never took him more than to fill his lungs with breath to make the right decision."

Jeff

 

[Ilkka]

IIRC, Greg (or someone else, of the illuminated guard) has described his initial vision of the Orlanthi as having brown/tanned skin, like the Greeks. Not the northern, paler complexion.

-ile

 

[Lord High Munchkin]

I too also recall it somewhere being mentioned (I looked through the Greg Stafford interview in 'White Dwarf' 17... but it must have been elsewhere), that the Orlanthi were loosely modelled on the ancient Thracians.

Louise Perrene's illustrations in the very early RQ material certainly look very "Classical" - for example the Orlanthi Rune-levels in 'Runemasters'.

But who knows were this "Celtic" thing crept in - it doesn't seem to have been originally there, but as they say YGMD.

 

[richaje]

I too also recall it somewhere being mentioned (I looked through the Greg Stafford interview in 'White Dwarf' 17... but it must have been elsewhere), that the Orlanthi were loosely modelled on the ancient Thracians.

Louise Perrene's illustrations in the very early RQ material certainly look very "Classical" - for example the Orlanthi Rune-levels in 'Runemasters'.

But who knows were this "Celtic" thing crept in - it doesn't seem to have been originally there, but as they say YGMD.

FWIW, the Orlanthi were not loosely modelled on any particular culture. Perenne's art borrowed heavily from classical images including the Thracians (which I certainly think is appropriate), other artists have borrowed from Celtic, Germanic or even Bronze Age sources. For their myths and history, look even further for inspiration.

Jeff

 

[Lord High Munchkin]

I have definitely seen something Greg Stafford wrote about Thracians - I have a lot of stuff that I got way back in the '70's that I'll need to trawl through, but it certainly rings bells.

 

[Cleombrotus]

If you can dig out a few quotes I'd be very interested. I heard a rumour that it was Greg who got bored with the early ancient Greek imagery and consciously moved away from it. As for myself it was that Perenne artwork that created most of my early inspiration for Runequest and Glorantha. I really like the Runemaster artwork, and actually prefer the more human looking trolls. Mind you, the medieval Waha worshippers seemed a bit wrong. Still, I guess that Esvulari who spend their time in the Marcher Barons could easily 'go native' in a Dances With Wolves kind of way...

 

[djd]

I always liked the ancient Greek type images in Runequest. The art was lovely and it set it apart from the usual swords and sorcery peusdo-medieval norm.

 

[richaje]

I have definitely seen something Greg Stafford wrote about Thracians - I have a lot of stuff that I got way back in the '70's that I'll need to trawl through, but it certainly rings bells.

I am pretty sure there was a throwaway quote in one of the old Wyrms Footnotes comparing the Orlanthi to the Thracians - I recall the reference as well. And some even OLDER stuff material Greg gave me gives more of a medieval feel to the Principality of Sartar.

That being said, Greg has been pretty consistent on the look and feel of the Orlanthi for nearly thirty years. They are Orlanthi - not Thracians, not Greeks, not Celts, not Vikings, not Anglo-Saxons, Rus, Iroquois, Gaels or Hittites. But feel free to borrow from all of the above or more if it helps your image of them.

Jeff

 

[Lord High Munchkin]

This is going to take a while... I have at least 7 crates of mainly RQ stuff - and there is no telling where a particular thing is, it could be in the other RPG boxes even!

The upside is that so far I have found my misplaced 'Saurians' and discovered a copy of 'Starships & Spacemen' that I didn't even know I had!!! Pity that, as I only bought a .PDF of 'Starships & Spacemen' at Xmas, thinking that I didn't have it already....

 

[The King]

In fact cattle and sheep stealing is one of the oldest clan tradition in the world. It was a fact before urban civilization (cities and city-states) was developped but it still applies to a sedentary group because of the social groups, i.e. professional warriors, cottars and jarls. But excepted for the names, these groups also existed everywhere.