Get your D&D out of my Conan!

Sir Hackalot

Mongoose
Some time ago I had some birthday money and I decided to buy Conan D20. I have always liked Conan and really was interested in what the game had to offer. When I started reading it I liked most of what I saw but because I had another game going on I just put in on my bookshelf and left it there for about 5-6 months. Then I found an intro style adventure called Red Snows and I playtested with my then group.

They really liked the style and feel of the game and I decided to start running a game with it. I ended up having Cimmerian Barbarian, a Hyrkanian nomad, two Zamorian thieves, two hyborian soldiers, one Aquilonian and a Ophirian, and a Khitian Scholar.

It was fun for awhile then things started to get to me. First off, the player of the Aquilonian is a self-confessed power gamer and whined about not being able to buy magic armor and weapons. And the Khitian sorceror wanted to start her sorceror's garden and make lots of potions so that she could feed the barbarian the potions during combat. In other words, despite the fact that I thought I made it clear that Conan is sword and sorcery and that magic is not commonplace I ended up having two players who apparently wanted to play it just like D&D.

So have you guys ever had problems with players trying to insert a D&D mentality into the game? How have dealt with it? Don't get me wrong now, I have no real problems with D&D, I just think that there is a time and a place for everything.
 
There's a general D&D mentality in our group but not in a meaningfully active way, just a "I don't really understand anything else" kind of approach to how to play.

For your group, if you can live without those two, you can cut 'em now or give them some time and cut 'em later. If you can't, tell them that you'll give this campaign X amount of more time and if they still can't relate to it, you'll go back to what they like.

You can try to argue stuff like "well, if you have magic items, so does everyone else, cancelling any sort of benefit" or "instead of worrying about your power, you could worry about your reputation and impact on the world", and so on, but if people can't figure this stuff out for themselves, they'll probably never really get it.
 
This is Conan. Fall hard on your players. Get them enslaved, beaten and stolen. If they bought a lot of equipment, have them starting the next adventure naked, chained to the rowing bank of a galley. If they got a magic item, make it slowly suck the soul of its user and have scores of blood crazy cultists fall on the party to get it back! This is the Hyborian world. There are no good gods here. No healers nor paladins.
Players will take the munckin way only if you let them.
 
Nowhere it is written that D&D cannot be played like a sword & sorcery game. It all depends on how much magic is widespread, and how much the main characters depend on magic and magic-like abilities to solve their problems.
So, it seems your players simply tried to "fit" the standard D&D gaming ideas into the Conan game. I suppose you could let them try and get those things "by the book" (i.e. craft magic items, accessing more magic etc.), so they will see that it is really hard. If they do not get this in actual play, perhaps they are not interested in this style of play at all, and I would suggest you change game (if you want to play with them). It's not fun to play a game you do not like.
 
Hervé said:
This is Conan. Fall hard on your players. Get them enslaved, beaten and stolen. If they bought a lot of equipment, have them starting the next adventure naked, chained to the rowing bank of a galley. If they got a magic item, make it slowly suck the soul of its user and have scores of blood crazy cultists fall on the party to get it back! This is the Hyborian world. There are no good gods here. No healers nor paladins.
Players will take the munckin way only if you let them.

The above works really well when coupled with an episodic style game. Starting every session with out any of the equipment they worked so hard to acquire the session before will quickly force them to adjust their priorities, or decide this isn't the game for them.
 
I'd explain them - especially the Aquilonian player - that in Conan you can't buy magic gear because you don't _need_ magic gear. Those Defense progressions are there for a reason. In D&D you have to decorate yourself like a christmas tree in order to improve your AC beyond 21, while in Conan it's just matter of personal development, i.e. levels.

For that matter, I have to object rabindranath's statement that you can play low-magic D&D. That will only work at low levels. Of course you can always redefine "magic" armour as "exceptionally well-crafted masterwork" armour to explain the higher bonuses ("+3") without magic, but that hardly works for those famous Amulets of Natural Armour and similar everyday D&D items. But that only as an aside, it's not really the point here.

To me, it feels a lot more heroic to have a character being mighty out of his own innate abilities, not because of some junk he's lugging around. Maybe you can get that point across to your power gamer. A high level D&D character losing all his stuff is a helpless clown. A high level Conan character losing all his stuff is suffering a minor setback that may slow him down a little bit. So, who is more powerful?

On another note, when I set out to recruit new players for Conan, I emphasize from the start what they can expect, especially concerning magic gear (or its absence), and so far most of them have enjoyed it. Some came from games where magic stuff was rare so these don't feel a big difference, others come from D&D and enjoy the change.
 
Sounds like you all had differing expectations and understandings of what the campaign would be. I don't know that I would consider the players "wrong" but I would want to make sure that everyone is on the same page prior to the campaign start and this may also need to be refreshed during it.
 
Well, right now I am not running Conan but I was thinking about it in the near future. Both players are no longer with our group. One has stop coming over for more personal reasons and the other one has left to join the Army.

I think however, when and if I do run it again I will definitely let people know from the get go that this is a different type of campaign from D&D. I was even thinking of writing up a primer for the game to let people understand.

But hey thanks for the advice.
 
I think also it depends on if the players are familiar with and enjoy the Hyborian world. If they've never read a Conan story (or even seen the movie), then it will be easy for them to assume the Conan d20 is just another fantasy rpg with different names. Once they learn the difference, some will feel like it is a refreshing change from the same old games they are used to or they will long for their +2 acidic burst long sword.

I'm almost tempted to have prospective players read an REH Conan story before joining the game so they can get a feel for the world and the way the stories run. But, at least you could ask them the following questions: Are you ok with a fantasy world...

with little to know magic?
in which using magic or even being near a magic item could drive you to insanity or kill you?
in which everyone you meet will be a human?
in which the scariest monsters you will run into for a long time will be humans or animals?
where slavery, racism, sexism, drugs, and prostitution are not only legal and tolerated, but normal?

If you've answered 'yes' to the questions, then you're ready for Conan!
 
DimitriX said:
I think also it depends on if the players are familiar with and enjoy the Hyborian world. If they've never read a Conan story (or even seen the movie), then it will be easy for them to assume the Conan d20 is just another fantasy rpg with different names. Once they learn the difference, some will feel like it is a refreshing change from the same old games they are used to or they will long for their +2 acidic burst long sword.

Or, they could read any other sort of fantasy fiction prior to D&D becoming popular. Even The Hobbit/Lord of the Rings, where you can kind of see how D&D got the idea that PCs should have magic swords (Sting) or cool armor (mithril shirt) bears absolutely no resemblance to your typical "I'll sell my +1 longsword now that I have a Flametongue and I'll pick up a couple of potions of flying that I'll keep in my Bag of Holding. Trade you my +2 chain for your +1 splint. Sorry magic-user/thief/wizard/rogue/dude, just +1 maces and magic shields, I'm sure you'll get something you can use later, here, have my +2 Ring of Protection and I'll use your +1 for now."

Conan provides a good example that FRPGs can still be functional games without being exceedingly silly.
 
Heh, that reminds me of the Loot of the Rings:

Narsil: Sword of Legend. Refurbished.

Horn of Gondor: blow this horn in a moment of need and your friends will arrive in time to give you a proper burial.

Sting: an Elven dagger that glows in the dark whenever Orcs are near, thus allowing them to find you more easily.

Mithril shirt: worth eleventy billion gold. Good luck finding a shopkeeper with that much on hand. Most will try to simply exchange it for store credit. Don't fall for this.

Bow of Legolas: just like a regular bow, except named after Legolas, extreme Elf.

Gandalf's Staff: +2 to Awesome

(source: http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=721 )
 
Like a lot of folks here, I get into the Conan RPG because I was sick of all the high fantasy of 3.x D&D. But I still like D&D (at least the classic stuff). So when I play 3e D&D, I find the Conan system well to my liking - where warriors dont need magical weapons or armor, and magic feels like dark eldrich sorcery!

I find a lot of SRD books with a lot of good ideas, locations, monsters, NPC, and so forth that work great for a S&S styled D&D, if you remove the elements that make things too high fantasy. I also find a number of times when the Pirate, Noble, or Temptress class woulds come in handy (e.g.: I find a lot of NPC that have levels of bard, when the Temptress class works much better). I also found countless times when magical item, and the use of spells/spell-like abilities felt forced into place, or counter productive - like using magical items to supplement defense at higher levels, or to give ability that could have been done with skills or good role-playing.

I may find the d20 system itself to be chunky and needlessly complex. But at least the Conan book, makes the game a little more playable!
 
This thread's focus on magic items is a good example of how D&D is not remotely high fantasy. D&D is a terrible system to try to model high fantasy, but then, any system that has mechanics is going to have trouble with high fantasy since high fantasy is the (common) fantasy genre that is the least mechanical.

In high fantasy, equipment only matters if: it's part of the character, e.g. Stormbringer and Elric; it's useful to move the plot. In (typical) D&D, equipment is everything, with characters being (as mentioned in this thread) nonfunctional without their junk.

Of course, I'm just wasting my time as seen when I pointed this out previously. People are going to stubbornly continue to confuse everyone by equating videogame fantasy with a genre that it has only passing similarity to.
 
I was about to write something similar, i.e. High Fantasy in the original literature context having nothing to do with High Magic, but rather defined by the scope. Look at Tolkien: A band of heroes fighting the source of all evil for the fate of the entire world. That's High Fantasy. It has nothing to do with High Magic. As we like to put it, "You are Gandalf. You can make light and talk to birds."

In short, D&D stuff is High Magic, in the sense that magic replaces technology, but not High Fantasy in the literary sense. However, there seems to be a re-definition in the RPG context declaring "high fantasy" as "a world with widespread magic". But I find that misleading.
 
Not to threadjack even more, but I happen to have tried to explain high fantasy to people I game with when we were looking at starting a new campaign, in this case of Earthdawn. What eludes me is why all of this isn't obvious based on reading fantasy, but whatever. As you say and as someone said last time around about high fantasy being about high ideals and not high power, high fantasy is about far more than power.

My E-mail said:
Lot of stuff may delve into other genres and the clear lines on some genres may not be, but here are some of my thoughts on high fantasy.

Elements:
Ignoring the minutiae - I think we can easily agree on this. Cashing a paycheck is just irrelevant even if it at times money is brought up for a reason to do something (but turns out to not be a real reason). What type of weapons or armor or horse or anything is only important when something is unique to a character (will come back to this). Disease, politics, religion, race, etc. are only important when they are a central problem to something that will affect the world as a whole.

Power is ... - For one thing, I'd say power is a means to an end. Characters aren't trying to be more powerful, wealthier, or whatever. They are trying to achieve some sort of world changing goal and only the powerful or the right person at the right time can make the difference. An ordinary dude can fit right into high fantasy because such things as ideals matter more than measurable ability. However, high fantasy tends to see epic level power. There are quiet, local stories that affect few people that should be high fantasy, but outside of short stories, I'd tend to believe that most high fantasy is also epic. Power is often situationally relevant as opposed to being something that the story worries about, i.e. power serves to further the story and epic stories require epic power. Also, it's common for: the characters to already be godlike in power but just that they don't know it until the climactic moments; characters to be potentially godlike in power and just need the transformation to occur; the characters to regress in awesomeness, which is fairly contrary to how RPGs play.

Stuff - Stuff is a plot device or irrelevant except in one case. Character defining items or, at least, items unique to a character - in other words, items that are really part of a character - show up commonly. You can't take these things away except as a plot device.

Purpose - I think this is the clear difference from epic sword and sorcery. In sword and sorcery, it's just characters doing what they care about - revenge, wealth, whatever. In high fantasy, characters serve a world purpose. They may just be bit players, but the(ir) world depends upon their actions. I think it's possible to play D&D as high fantasy, but how often do the characters really serve a purpose in their world in D&D?

Larger than life - Similar to ignoring minutiae and something I think we can also agree easily on. Dramatic scenes are the ones that matter to the plot. Can have the personal scenes to give the characters character, but they need to have the defend the bridge from all comers moments.

Magic is ... - Wondrous. May not be able to levitate but might be able to bring a snowstorm to a desert. It doesn't tend to follow logic, it just serves a purpose. Fireballs are for dramatic effect not for softening up the bad guys.

Coincidence - Is used all of the time in fiction for different reasons, but it's not something to avoid in HF.

Examples:
John Carter of Mars - It's not even pure fantasy, but this covers the larger than life, the purpose (I would argue), the type of power - greatest swordsman on three worlds and I can only remember one fair fight that he wasn't favored in, yet that's a given and not a goal.

Spellsinger - It doesn't seem like it at first, but the two part opening story is one of saving the world and the way it's done is by summoning one of the powers of the universe. Money is talked about, but it's just an excuse rather than something that has real meaning. Sure, the series is intended to be humorous and there's a genre for that, but Jon-Tom is the preeminent being of the fantasy world and does larger than life stuff (mixed in with the "how do we get out of this misunderstanding" stuff).

Eternal Champion - Only Elric seems to ever slide into sword and sorcery adventures. Even so, most of his stuff I can think of can be lumped in with the rest of the Eternal Champion stories and anytime the story is about the Champion doing his thing, it's high fantasy.

Master of the Five Magics - Don't know how popular this book was, but the story is all about the main character being the special dude who can be the Archimage (I think that's how they spell it in this series), with his mundane problems serving only to achieve the transformation.

A Spell for Chameleon - The first book in the Xanth series. Again, it is also humor fantasy. And, the humor is quite juvenile in the series (more so as it goes on - "The Color of Her Panties"??). But, Bink (that was his idiotic name, right?) is suggested to be omnipotent [add - which makes the story more about his decisions and character and how he affects the world than what he's capable of]. Etc.

Lord of the Rings - Seems obvious why.

Thomas Covenant - Lord of the Ringsish, should also seem obvious, at least once the first book gets over the obnoxious "I'm a leper, so I don't believe in this world" crap at the beginning.

Isn't:

Conan - Sword and sorcery. He might be the preeminent personage of his time and he fights the big kahunas, but he doesn't really serve a purpose.

Wheel of Time - It has elements of high fantasy at times, but even putting aside the obnoxious crap that bogs the series down such that you want to kill something, there's still a bit too much pedestrian fantasy for me to think of it as high fantasy. [add - I realized later that political stories are out of line for high fantasy. Intrigue and politics are part of the backdrop but not the raison d'etre of the stories.]

Deryni - I'd put with WoT in how it has enough mundane stuff, especially politics, to be some sort of midrange fantasy. [add - See above about intrigue and politics.]

I'm sure there's more that I'm leaving out, like how space opera or supers relate or maybe some better examples, but I hope this gives some idea of where I'm coming from. The more I thought about it, the less I thought the Earthdawn game as described would be high fantasy. I'm not saying that we can't do Earthdawn as high fantasy, just that it seemed too much framed within a D&Desque framework to capture all of the elements. Though, it may be the nature of RPGs that high fantasy isn't purely compatible to having a coherent mechanical system.
 
Clovenhoof said:
For that matter, I have to object rabindranath's statement that you can play low-magic D&D. That will only work at low levels. Of course you can always redefine "magic" armour as "exceptionally well-crafted masterwork" armour to explain the higher bonuses ("+3") without magic, but that hardly works for those famous Amulets of Natural Armour and similar everyday D&D items. But that only as an aside, it's not really the point here.
Well, it all boils down to what kind of environment the characters are going to operate into. A D&D Fighter and a d20 Conan Soldier are not that different. The difference is in the assumption of what are they going to face. If the challenges they face require magic, then both of them are going to bite the dust if they do not have magic. If those challenges are less "magical", they will fare the same. I DMed perfectly working, S&S-like games with the core D&D 3.0 rules, by just reducing the number of critters and situations which require magic to solve.
Such a game would typically include fighters, barbarians, rogues and sorcerers, with sorcerers needing to pact with some entity to get their spells (as per variant rules in the 3.0 DMG). The 3.0 DMG has guidelines for the assignment of magical treasures as a function of character power, and this in turn can be tuned w.r.t. the challenges they face. It's all a matter of defining a campaign world with suitable assumptions.
 
Well, it all boils down to what kind of environment the characters are going to operate into. A D&D Fighter and a d20 Conan Soldier are not that different. The difference is in the assumption of what are they going to face. If the challenges they face require magic, then both of them are going to bite the dust if they do not have magic. If those challenges are less "magical", they will fare the same.

Except that that's not quite true, and one of the most vital differences is in defence. A d20 Conan soldier has Parry and Dodge, and these are determined by his stats, feats and bonuses, which rise with level. A D&D fighter has his AC, which is determined by stats and equipment, which do not. There are a few feats which raise AC, but they are only a few.

At low levels, you are right they won't look very different. But as they rise in levels, a Conan Soldier's defence will continue to rise, whereas a Fighters will stop. Once that fighter has Full Plate and a large shield, thats it. AC will never rise again. It will, in fact, be about 21, depending on the presence or absence of a Dex bonus or the Dodge feat.

Once you are past level 8 or so, this means that he will never be missed, except by later attacks in an iterative chain, and then only maybe. By level 15 its just a joke: a strong 15th level fighter will have attack bonuses of 23/17/12 even if he's been paying almost no attention to boosting them at all, and few monsters met will have attacks lower than 20.

D&D covers this with magic. Rings of protection, Natural Armour and of course magic armour and shields. Conan handles this with bonuses to defence which scale with level. But you can't do moderate to high level play with neither.
 
To my understanding Challenge Ratings (or whatever) in D&D 3.x are calculated in a way that assumes certain level PCs to have certain amount of magic items. So, if you hand wave those CRs (I would) then I can't see why basic D&D rules set would not work for Conan style game (to an extent).

Still, if I get back to the original case (that is no longer an issue) I would have also tried to explain the difference between the mentality of Conan game and common D&D game. It really can make a difference even when done in the middle of the campaign. I have done that with another sword and sorcery game (another case where my vision was not met with that of the players'). Curiously enough my players didn't have any problems to understand that there were not many magical items and even alchemical potions were very expensive. On the other hand it was not a d20 game...

I don't see a point in changing the game because of two players unless you want to run another game for a while. You are supposed to have fun, too :)

Magical items have been already talked in length so I won't go there further. The idea of herb garden is kind of cute :D But would your party stay in one place long enough to use it? I very much doubt it and it is very easy for a GM to create a situation where PCs have to travel away from their base or home. Who then tends the garden? An NPC? Is he/she reliable? Are there some concerned citizens who will burn the garden down in the name of Mitra before the sorcerer can use those herbs for evil deeds? :wink:
 
kintire said:
Well, it all boils down to what kind of environment the characters are going to operate into. A D&D Fighter and a d20 Conan Soldier are not that different. The difference is in the assumption of what are they going to face. If the challenges they face require magic, then both of them are going to bite the dust if they do not have magic. If those challenges are less "magical", they will fare the same.

Except that that's not quite true, and one of the most vital differences is in defence. A d20 Conan soldier has Parry and Dodge, and these are determined by his stats, feats and bonuses, which rise with level. A D&D fighter has his AC, which is determined by stats and equipment, which do not. There are a few feats which raise AC, but they are only a few.

At low levels, you are right they won't look very different. But as they rise in levels, a Conan Soldier's defence will continue to rise, whereas a Fighters will stop. Once that fighter has Full Plate and a large shield, thats it. AC will never rise again. It will, in fact, be about 21, depending on the presence or absence of a Dex bonus or the Dodge feat.

Once you are past level 8 or so, this means that he will never be missed, except by later attacks in an iterative chain, and then only maybe. By level 15 its just a joke: a strong 15th level fighter will have attack bonuses of 23/17/12 even if he's been paying almost no attention to boosting them at all, and few monsters met will have attacks lower than 20.

D&D covers this with magic. Rings of protection, Natural Armour and of course magic armour and shields. Conan handles this with bonuses to defence which scale with level. But you can't do moderate to high level play with neither.
It's just a stylistic choice. If the enemies of said fighter (humans mostly given the type of setting) follow the same progression rules, the ground truth stays the same. If possible, a D&D game becomes even deadlier than the supposedly more gritty d20 Conan. And monsters in S&S game should always be fearsome, so it is only good that even an high level fighter should run for his life (like mighty Conan did in more than one occasion).
Trust me, I have run this game way before the d20 Conan game was printed, and it worked a charm; the above ideas are not a mental masturbation or the fruit of abstract reasoning on what can and cannot be done with core D&D 3.0. It's not that before d20 Conan effective S&S games could not be run :)
 
It's just a stylistic choice. If the enemies of said fighter (humans mostly given the type of setting) follow the same progression rules, the ground truth stays the same.

But that's just the point: it doesn't, because the AC does not progress, and th attack bonus does.

Trust me, I have run this game way before the d20 Conan game was printed,

So have I, and I found that it worked fine up to level 5, dubiously up to 7 or 8, and after that you might as well ignore the attack roll completely, and just roll damage on all combatants until someone goes down.
 
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