Geography of southern Aquilonia and neighbours ?

[mikkoh]

Hello fellow scholars,

I've been pondering the geography of southern Aquilonia and the closest neighbouring countries for a while. The sources are a little bit contradictory, and I thought of drawing on this forum as a source of knowledge and opinions.

One thing worth noting is that in my opinion, there usually is some geographic feature like a river, mountains, hills, etc. that serves as a natural boundary, and the borders of countries conform to these. One reason is that they are easily defended from one sides or both.

Poitain. From what I've gathered, it ought to be surrounded by mountains from both north and west. In the south is the river Alimane. And now my speculations and questions:

- Apparently Aquilonia beyond Poitainian mountains is of higher elevation than Poitain in the south. The Poitainian mountains might then gradually get flatter, twindling so that they continue as the Imirian escarpment until that meets river Khorotas.
- Alimane has its sources somewhere in the western branch of the Poitainian mountains. River Bitaxa is a tributary of the Alimane, but does it flow to the east of Culario, or to the west ?
- The pass of Saxula in the Rabirian mountains is the way from Argos to Aquilonia (and Poitain). It is "near Alimane", but does Alimane flow though this pass ? Or has it broken through the Rabirian mts. farther to the east or northeast ? Or does it continue further east, meeting Khorotas somewhere where the Rabirian range has ended ?
- Ophir has territory on the western bank of Khorotas. (If it hadn't, figuring out the boundaries and geography would have been much easier...) What is the boundary between Poitain and Ophir ? If the Rabirian range would continue here even as a hill-like range, it could be the boundary until it meets the Khorotas.
- Alimane could also be the border between trans-Khorotas Ophir and Argos ?

Also, if Red River was to curve south after Ianthe, and after a while, again to the west, it would meet Khorotas so south that it could serve as part of the boundary between Argos and Ophir.

These are a little bit hard to illustrate without actually drawing them out, but I hope that you get the picture.

 

[Hervé]

What about this?
http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/vd_aquilonia.jpg

 

[VincentDarlage]

Poitain. From what I've gathered, it ought to be surrounded by mountains from both north and west. In the south is the river Alimane.

The map provided by Herve (and created by me) illustrates most of this. If you want the Rabiran Mountains to go a bit further north and meet at the juncture of the Poitainian Mountains and the Plains of Shamu, that is fine - I left the mountains off because I wanted some contested grounds between Ophir and Poitain (if everyone is surrounded by mountains, then why did Poitain develop mounted knights instead of becoming mountain skirmishers?).

Apparently Aquilonia beyond Poitainian mountains is of higher elevation than Poitain in the south. The Poitainian mountains might then gradually get flatter, twindling so that they continue as the Imirian escarpment until that meets river Khorotas.

Yes. I think my map shows that (although showing that sort of elevation difference was beyond my abilities whenI drew that map, I think I could do it better now).

Alimane has its sources somewhere in the western branch of the Poitainian mountains. River Bitaxa is a tributary of the Alimane, but does it flow to the east of Culario, or to the west ?

I have it passing to the west, but I don't remember my reasoning right now.

- The pass of Saxula in the Rabirian mountains is the way from Argos to Aquilonia (and Poitain). It is "near Alimane", but does Alimane flow though this pass ? Or has it broken through the Rabirian mts. farther to the east or northeast ? Or does it continue further east, meeting Khorotas somewhere where the Rabirian range has ended ?

I don't know.

-Ophir has territory on the western bank of Khorotas. (If it hadn't, figuring out the boundaries and geography would have been much easier...) What is the boundary between Poitain and Ophir ? If the Rabirian range would continue here even as a hill-like range, it could be the boundary until it meets the Khorotas.

Perhaps at one time Poitain extended to the Khorotas, but has since conquered the land on the other side and set up a series of border forts and castles to defend the border. Maybe the border is much more fluid than most people give it credit for and the border is constantly fluxuating between Poitain and Ophir, depending on treaties, skirmishes, and wars.

I am against just stating that every kingdom has a static, unchanging border, as that eliminates a lot of intrigue and conflict which can fuel an RPG.

-- Alimane could also be the border between trans-Khorotas Ophir and Argos ?

I just noticed that thulsa never posted up the map of Ophir I sent him. Hmmm. Anyway, that is neither here nor there. It could be. I don't remember what I read that caused me to move it downward on my map (it was something in Conan the Liberator, or it was just a whim of mine in order to not have a perfectly delineated border which is hard to contest).

-Also, if Red River was to curve south after Ianthe, and after a while, again to the west, it would meet Khorotas so south that it could serve as part of the boundary between Argos and Ophir.

That is a very good idea - if you want perfect borders between all the nations. Actually, my map of Ophir (which thulsa didn't post) shows how that could easily be accomplished - since the Red River actually caused me a lot of headache and this solution would solve that headache.

Other maps showing the region include
http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/vd_zingara.jpg
http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/vd_argos.jpg

 

[mikkoh]

Excuse me my poor editing: I tried to keep the answers and issues together, making the post rather large.

Poitain. From what I've gathered, it ought to be surrounded by mountains from both north and west. In the south is the river Alimane.

If you want the Rabiran Mountains to go a bit further north and meet at the juncture of the Poitainian Mountains and the Plains of Shamu, that is fine - I left the mountains off because I wanted some contested grounds between Ophir and Poitain (if everyone is surrounded by mountains, then why did Poitain develop mounted knights instead of becoming mountain skirmishers?).

My thing with the Rabirian mts. is related to Saxula, and I'll explain it further down.

The other thing is that I meant mountains to west (the Poitainian mts on your map are more of an west-east range instead of curving to south at its western end) of Poitain, towards northern Zingara and Pictish wilderness beyond the mountains (and Thunder river, the course of which is also somewhat mysterious, but let's leave that for later). I recall that the "mountains to north and west" was at least in tRoK or Aquilonia, Flower of the West. I'll have to check this when I get to my books. EDIT:[?b]Couldn't find "mountains to the west" in the books. My mistake.

River Bitaxa is a tributary of the Alimane, but does it flow to the east of Culario, or to the west ?

I have it passing to the west, but I don't remember my reasoning right now.

OK, my interest here was that (if I recall right) it was described as a swift-flowing river, posing a hazard to cross and even an obstacle to armies, and the control of a possible bridge, ford or other crossing point would be of strategic importance. Especially if the river was between Ophir and Culario.

- The pass of Saxula in the Rabirian mountains is the way from Argos to Aquilonia (and Poitain). It is "near Alimane", but does Alimane flow though this pass ? Or has it broken through the Rabirian mts. farther to the east or northeast ? Or does it continue further east, meeting Khorotas somewhere where the Rabirian range has ended ?

I don't know.

Dang! I think that we have deCamp & Carter to thank here. The location of Saxula gives me a headache, and I'm tempted to erase it from existence alltogether. However, the image of a pass that has been cleaved through the mountains is just too much to leave out...

-Ophir has territory on the western bank of Khorotas. (If it hadn't, figuring out the boundaries and geography would have been much easier...) What is the boundary between Poitain and Ophir ? If the Rabirian range would continue here even as a hill-like range, it could be the boundary until it meets the Khorotas.

I am against just stating that every kingdom has a static, unchanging border, as that eliminates a lot of intrigue and conflict which can fuel an RPG.

I was groping at thin air here, caused by my want of getting Saxula and Alimane going through the Rabirians. If they were to continue, there would be a need to go through the Saxula to get from Poitain to Argos. Now I'm a little bit lost with the damned pass...

I agree on your point of having contested and changing borders. The thing is that there usually is at least some kind of natural formation, even a slight and easily crossed, where the "line in the sand" is drawn, if strong and easily defended borders cannot be achieved by military action.

And having Ophir controlling both banks of Khorotas just makes it perfect, for they control the river traffic, the crossing points, etc. They can toll the trade and transport of goods, and have also a strategic military asset there. I would imagine that trans-Khorotas Ophir is both fortified and well-manned. And often fought over, to our delight!

-- Alimane could also be the border between trans-Khorotas Ophir and Argos ?

I just noticed that thulsa never posted up the map of Ophir I sent him. Hmmm. Anyway, that is neither here nor there. It could be. I don't remember what I read that caused me to move it downward on my map (it was something in Conan the Liberator, or it was just a whim of mine in order to not have a perfectly delineated border which is hard to contest).

Alimane could be easily crossable over there,too ?

-Also, if Red River was to curve south after Ianthe, and after a while, again to the west, it would meet Khorotas so south that it could serve as part of the boundary between Argos and Ophir.

That is a very good idea - if you want perfect borders between all the nations. Actually, my map of Ophir (which thulsa didn't post) shows how that could easily be accomplished - since the Red River actually caused me a lot of headache and this solution would solve that headache.

I see, I'll take a look at that map as soon as possible. Interesting!

I saved this to last: the thing that disturbs me is that besides mountains to north and west, REH said that "to east lay Argos, and beyond that, Ophir". And with that I have spent some time scratching my head. It could be achieved with Alimane flowing through the Rabirian mts through the Saxula pass, and having Argos to southeast and even a little east of Poitain. But I'm getting short of ideas on how to continue from there...

 

[LucaCherstich]

For thies issue (and others) see:
http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=32662&highlight=