Genuine suggestion for Autofire fix. Autofire comments only.

[Klaus Kipling]

Please, this is not an attempt at provoking anyone, just a genuine attempt to fix the Autofire rule.

1. Roll number of dice equal to Autofire value.

2. Pick highest as Timing die. (Or even choose, as per normal, though most likely, and sensibly, this will be the highest one)

3. Apply cumulative -1 modifier to every shot after the first.

4. Reduce Timing die by weapon recoil + number of Autofire dice.

This means that the more shots that are fired, the higher the chance that the first shot might hit, but then the others suffer increasingly higher penalties. So low skilled characters can increase their chances of a hit or two by expending lots of ammo; high skilled characters will not waste the ammo, if they are sensible.

The player will probably arrange his/her Effect dice to maximise the hits; this isn't really a problem, though.

 

[tbeard1999]

Please, this is not an attempt at provoking anyone, just a genuine attempt to fix the Autofire rule.
<snip of fix>

Way too fiddly in my opinion. Still results in an unreasonably high number of hits. Also, who determines which shot is the "first" shot?

A much better idea IMHO is Sablewyvern's fix posted at COI. Basically, a uniquely colored die is designated as the timing die and the player gets no choice in the matter.

On an autofire 4 roll, here are the stats:

-2 modifier: 72% chance of missing; .37 average hits (83%/0.17 single shot); Avg Timing Roll 5.3
-1 modifier: 54% chance of missing; .72 average hits (72%/0.28 single); Avg Timing Roll 4.9
0 modifier: 34% chance of missing; 1.26 average hits (58%/0.42 single); Avg Timing Roll 4.5
+1 modifier: 14% chance of missing; 1.88 average hits (42%/0.58 single); Avg Timing Roll 3.7
+2 modifier: 3% chance of missing; 2.36 average hits (28%/0.72 single); Avg Timing Roll 3.6
+3 modifier: <1% chance of missing; 2.67 average hits (17%/0.83 single); Avg Timing Roll 3.5

(Numbers generated by a Monte Carlo simulation rolling dice 50K times).

Seems a bit coarse, but I can't see a fatal flaw in it. It deprives the player of having any say in how many segments the shot takes. Also, the annoying timing artifact emerges -- the worse you are, the faster you do it... But compared to the T/E system's other problems, this fix is nearly perfect.

Note that this approach will not resolve my issues with the base system T/E however. It would still skew wildly to the extremes.

 

[Klaus Kipling]

Player decides which die is the first shot.


What is SableWyvern's fix?


Yup, it is a bit more fiddly, but I've never seen an autofire mechanic that isn't fiddly. Tis certainly not as fiddly as T20, for instance.

Will look over COTI...

[EDIT] Checked it now. A coloured die for timing, right?

Actually that works quite nicely. But...

Using a coloured die does confuse the T/E ethic a little (don't want to get into any nitty gritty over T/E btw), as you'd have a specific die just for autofire but not for regular times when T/E is used.

Hmm... This one's a taste test, methinks. I like it, but with reservations.

 

[Supplement Four]

Yup, it is a bit more fiddly, but I've never seen an autofire mechanic that isn't fiddly.

Then you've never played Classic Traveller.

AutoFire nets you two attack throws instead of one. Simple. Effective. Two chances to hit. Possibility of twice the damage.

Some rapid fire weapons, like the VRF gauss rifle, gets three or more attack throws.

And, if other targets are close the primary, those targets can be attacked as well (considered in the weapon's created danger space).




Gawd, I love Classic Traveller. No Traveller rules set has delivered faster, easier, sleeker game mechanics to date.

 

[SableWyvern]

[EDIT] Checked it now. A coloured die for timing, right?

Actually that works quite nicely. But...

Using a coloured die does confuse the T/E ethic a little (don't want to get into any nitty gritty over T/E btw), as you'd have a specific die just for autofire but not for regular times when T/E is used.

Hmm... This one's a taste test, methinks. I like it, but with reservations.

An alternative is to just roll one die first, call it Timing, and follow with the rest, for those that don't have or can't be bothered with an off-colour die.

The autofire mechanic as it stands already removes player choice over Timing, which in general I'm opposed to, but I don't mind it in this one situation (which should carry over to multiple tasks in general, btw).

 

[Klaus Kipling]

Yup, it is a bit more fiddly, but I've never seen an autofire mechanic that isn't fiddly.

Then you've never played Classic Traveller.

AutoFire nets you two attack throws instead of one. Simple. Effective. Two chances to hit. Possibility of twice the damage.

Some rapid fire weapons, like the VRF gauss rifle, gets three or more attack throws.

And, if other targets are close the primary, those targets can be attacked as well (considered in the weapon's created danger space).

Gawd, I love Classic Traveller. No Traveller rules set has delivered faster, easier, sleeker game mechanics to date.

That's fiddly in my book, 2 or 3 rolls instead of one. Then there's that group hits rule, can't remember it exactly, and haven't got my reprint to hand.

Granted, no subtraction required, but I'm a lazy mo'fo' : I can do subtraction in my head, but I'd have to pick up those dice and throw them again.

 

[captainjack23]

[EDIT] Checked it now. A coloured die for timing, right?

Actually that works quite nicely. But...

Using a coloured die does confuse the T/E ethic a little (don't want to get into any nitty gritty over T/E btw), as you'd have a specific die just for autofire but not for regular times when T/E is used.

Hmm... This one's a taste test, methinks. I like it, but with reservations.

An alternative is to just roll one die first, call it Timing, and follow with the rest, for those that don't have or can't be bothered with an off-colour die.

The autofire mechanic as it stands already removes player choice over Timing, which in general I'm opposed to, but I don't mind it in this one situation (which should carry over to multiple tasks in general, btw).

Denouncements as fiddly aside, that works for me.

 

[captainjack23]

Yup, it is a bit more fiddly, but I've never seen an autofire mechanic that isn't fiddly.

Then you've never played Classic Traveller.

AutoFire nets you two attack throws instead of one. Simple. Effective. Two chances to hit. Possibility of twice the damage.

Some rapid fire weapons, like the VRF gauss rifle, gets three or more attack throws.

And, if other targets are close the primary, those targets can be attacked as well (considered in the weapon's created danger space).

Gawd, I love Classic Traveller. No Traveller rules set has delivered faster, easier, sleeker game mechanics to date.

That's fiddly in my book, 2 or 3 rolls instead of one. Then there's that group hits rule, can't remember it exactly, and haven't got my reprint to hand.

Granted, no subtraction required, but I'm a lazy mo'fo' : I can do subtraction in my head, but I'd have to pick up those dice and throw them again.

Actually, it works fine in CT...and is pretty deadly, and forces the characters to spread out. One integration of the two would be to use the adjacent and extra attacks, roll them as normal (MGT) attacks, but use the worst timing die to reset inititive.

 

[tbeard1999]

Player decides which die is the first shot.
Yup, it is a bit more fiddly, but I've never seen an autofire mechanic that isn't fiddly. Tis certainly not as fiddly as T20, for instance.

Striker had one of the best unfiddly mechnics -- for every 2 rolled over the base to hit number of 8, an extra hit was scored. (Autofire weapons got a to hit bonus as well).

There's nothing about autofire that inherently requires fiddliness.

 

[tbeard1999]

Another mechanic, used in Chaosium's Call of Cthlhu is to simply roll a die for the number of hits scored in an autofire burst.

While I prefer the Striker approach, this idea is quite workable. I considered it in a private RPG combat system and implemented it thusly:

The total number of bullets fired determines the to hit bonus and the dice rolled for the total number hits if the to hit roll succeeds:

2-5 +1 d3
6-14 +2 d6
15-29 +3 2d6
30-59 +4 3d6
60-99 +5 4d6
100-199 +6 5d6
200-399 +7 6d6
400-799 +8 7d6
etc

That system used a d10, so these bonuses would work ok for 2d6 as well.

 

[tbeard1999]

That's fiddly in my book, 2 or 3 rolls instead of one.

Takes no more time than jacking with multiple dice, and in my opinion, less.

Sorry, but I seriously doubt that the current mechanics are gonna win the "less fiddly mechanic award" (unless Old School games like Aftermath are brought in as ringers).

 

[Settembrini]

I´m all for Twilight: 2000´s autofire rules.

 

[SableWyvern]

I´m all for Twilight: 2000´s autofire rules.

Which version?

I was mightily impressed with TNE (using the GDW House System, also used in the final version of Twighlight, I believe) for making the effort to deal with beaten zones and the vagaries of autmatic fire generally; the actual implementation was fairly uninspiring, though, what with the need to roll six-gazillion d20s.

 

[Deniable]

I´m all for Twilight: 2000´s autofire rules.

Which version?

I was mightily impressed with TNE (using the GDW House System, also used in the final version of Twighlight, I believe) for making the effort to deal with beaten zones and the vagaries of autmatic fire generally; the actual implementation was fairly uninspiring, though, what with the need to roll six-gazillion d20s.

That was Twilight 2.2. 2.0 did much the same thing with d6s and hitting on a 6, but people complained that their skill wasn't being used, so when GDW changed Twilight 2 from d10 to d20, they also changed the autofire rules. The d20 version didn't feel much different but was slower in play.

I did like the effected area / beaten zone effect. It made people keep their heads down.

 

[tbeard1999]

...when GDW changed Twilight 2 from d10 to d20, they also changed the autofire rules. The d20 version didn't feel much different but was slower in play.

Agonizing in play would be how I'd describe it.

The GDW House Rules should serve as a warning to all who would load a game down with fussy mechanics. What made the gun combat system particularly vile was the fact that it not only required multiple die rolls (ordinarily OK in a game), but in very high quantities, and in such a way as to preclude batch processing.

As many games have shown, multiple die rolls can work very quick, but only if the mechanics are designed appropriately. (And of course, some designs have demonstrated how a single 2d6 roll can work very slowly).

In the case of the GDW house rules, you had:

1. Hordes of d20s to roll to hit.

2. A d10 based hit location roll.

3. Weapon damage expressed as a number of d6s.

#1 and #3 were the real system-killers. #1 used d20s, which are large (so fewer of them can fit in one hand) and roll on the table a long time (and distance), compared with d6s. Worse, you had to roll as many as 1d20 per bullet fired. In my first TNE campaign, the first shot fired was by a somewhat ponderous player who emptied a submachinegun clip of 20 bullets. Watching him roll 20 d20s was pure hell.

#3 made things worse because it required every hit to be rolled sequentially. Damage was (say) 3d6 and armor absorbed damage. So if you had 5 hits to the head, you had to roll each hit sequentally.

The process could have been sped up by using the same size die for each step. (I'd use d10s). While 3 die rolls are required (I'd use d10s or d6's instead of d20s), you could do them very quickly:

1. Roll 1d10 to hit.

2. Re-roll dice that hit to determine location.

3. Roll damage on all hits in a given location at the same time.

Even better, ditch hit location. Then you have a very smooth playing mechanic:

1. Roll 1d10 to hit.

2. Re-roll dice that hit to determine damage (armor absorbs damage).

Few mechanics can beat that approach for speed and elegance.

You can insert a penetration roll (or armor saving throw) to better model the difference between damage and penetration:

1. Roll 1d10 to hit.

2. Re-roll dice that hit to determine if the weapon penetrated. In my systems, the roll is 1d10+penetration, which must exceed the target's armor value. Note that if the weapon penetration equals the target's armor value, penetration is automatic.

3. Re-roll dice that penetrated to determine damage. In my systems, this is 1d10+the weapon's damage modifier (or 1d10 x the weapon's damage multiple in the case of shotguns).

In practice, this system moves as fast as the previous mechanic. I use this system currently and am adapting it for my Traveller campaign.

 

[Supplement Four]

That's fiddly in my book, 2 or 3 rolls instead of one.

Autofire = 2 attack throws.

Fiddly? You've got a strange definition of fiddly, then.

Then there's that group hits rule, can't remember it exactly, and haven't got my reprint to hand.

The rule is quite simply. If someone is close to the primary target, they can be attacked too (at a negative DM to hit--only one attack throw).

Granted, no subtraction required, but I'm a lazy mo'fo' : I can do subtraction in my head, but I'd have to pick up those dice and throw them again.

T4 used a nice mechanic for autofire as well. I don't like T4 that much, but it did do some things quite well.

Range provides a penalty DM to hit. Double this penalty for autofire.

But, throw twice the damage dice when a hit is scored.

That's a pretty elegant autofire system too. One attack throw. Lower chance to hit (wasn't much at Close and Short Range) because of autofire recoil and such. It didn't unbalance the game, either, because of the Kinetic Energy Rule (that says a max of 3D can be applied for damage from slug throwers).

So, if an AutoRifle does 3D damage, you roll 3D damage when it is fired semi-automatically. But, if fired in the fully automatic mode, 6D damage was thrown, taking the best 3D for damage.

Nice, elegant little system.

Both the CT and T4 autofire rules are much, much better than what the MGT system is providing.

They're simple, elegant, intuitive rules. MGT is fussy.

 

[Sturn]

I've previously asked in another thread if a person can take multiple shots in a combat action using the 'multiple actions' rules. Never received an answer, but...

To further simplify things, why not use the multiple action rules of Mongoose for autofire? This merges the autofire and multiple action rules, further simplifying the system.

For example, an autofire 4 weapon could fire up to 4 times in a combat action using the multiple action rules already in place (a penalty based on number of shots taken with one die for timing). If this made autofire weapons too powerful, recoil or some other additional penalty could be added to keep everyone and their brother from running around with autofire.

I have not looked into this in depth at all. Just an idea so far. Some ideas that come to mind are giving autofire 2 to semi-automatic weapons and targets must be adjacent to each other if not shooting all shots at one person.

 

[SableWyvern]

The autofire rules already are identical to the multiple action rules.

 

[Sturn]

The autofire rules already are identical to the multiple action rules.

Ok sorry apparently I need to reread both rules again. I'm an idiot. :lol: