Generalization vs specialization

[Annatar Giftbringer]

you can't fire pack in reaction unfortunately.... so they'd be reserved for situations when the unit was within 10" 92 thuds and six frags). That means 40 points for thuds and 40 points for frags all in one unit. That's a lot of points to tie up in one place.
Frags are good in sniper units, I don't tend to bother if the unit has other close up weapons with D10's. In fact, I don't often bother with thuds at all, flamers are far more effective (thuds get three dice at D10 and fire once, no reaction. Flamers can fire in both actions d10+2 hitting everything and get to react). Thuds can get a good round of shooting in, then they need to back off. Flamers are best left up close, clever positioning can leave the enemy crisped under reaction fire, look at it this way, any bug player will charge straight in at units with triple thuds to neutralise them, they'll usually keep clear of flamer heavy units... you can often use this to draw out hoppers, again, clever use of snipers can lure them into a nasty trap.
And be cafeful about going for shock sticks 'for the look' the model is very flimsy and starts to look a little wierd when you try to get a whole unit holding them (have a look at the mk2 neodog shockstick.... that's less spear like).
Basically, if you need to start looking at ways of prolonging life in close combat vs bugs, then you've lost, spend those points on a:keeping away or b: maximising reaction fire as they close. Best way to survive it is keep well clear though. If a unit gets engaged, say a few words and send some letters to next of kin
Bug players never try to compete with MI at ranged combat, don't make the mistake of thinking you've got a hope in close combat. If you did, the game would be pretty much broken. Every 40 points wasted equipping a unit with shocksticks buys the bug player another 4 worker bugs......what's most cost effective, that's the equivalent of one extra worker for every two MI.

Hmm, okay, you're starting to get through to me
I guess it's time to do some number crunching and see where the points are best spent - getting Cougars for the officers perhaps

I have yet to see if I'll give the assault squad two flamers, or one flamer and a Thud, as a single Thud still packs a heavy punch, but doesn't penalize the squad much when reacting - though I suppose there are benefits of having two flamers overlapping their fields of fire, with lost of Moritas slaughtering those caught in the middle!

I might assemble a couple of models wielding sticks and grenades just for the heck of it though, though in the spirit of WYSIWYG I probably won't be using them in regular games.

 

[darklord4]

Here are some statistics on shock sticks, rounded.
Based on fighting an arachnid warrior with a target of 4+ and a kill of 7+
Chances of getting at least 1 hit with a warrior rolling 2D6+1 and no shockstick: 87%
With shockstick 82%
Chances of getting at least 1 kill result with a warrior rolling 2D6+1 and no shock stick: 30%
With shockstick: 19%
Chances of getting a hit with a warrior rolling 1D10 and no shockstick: 70%
With shockstick 51%
Chances of getting a kill result with a warrior rolling 1D10 and no shock stick: 40%
With shockstick: 16%

The reroll really helps with the 1D10, however, decreasing the odds of a hit by 19% at best while adding a 20% cost to a model doesn't seem worth it. However, for any model ranked sergeant or higher(points-wise), it seems like it is worth it.

 

[Makoto]

Bug players never try to compete with MI at ranged combat

Just don't get too certain with it - a firefry/plasma heavy swarm is at least equal match in shooting contest even for MI, although this kind of list will tend to result in short, brutal games with both sides charging towards each other and lots of reaction fire ^^

 

[Iain McGhee]

Arachnids with large Rippler contingents can put out a fair amount of ranged firepower too, albeit very short ranged. Can be a real pain if the MI don't have many AA weapons (or lose them) and the Ripplers stay in Loiter mode.

As for shocksticks, I'd rather have a small chance of surviving melee with a Warrior bug than almost none. I'd at least give officers them.

 

[JoseDominguez]

Bug players never try to compete with MI at ranged combat

Just don't get too certain with it - a firefry/plasma heavy swarm is at least equal match in shooting contest even for MI, although this kind of list will tend to result in short, brutal games with both sides charging towards each other and lots of reaction fire ^^

Not so, you have an entire army with no reaction shooting there.... they don't match up at all. Plasmas are good, but easily dealt with due to expense, additionaly, they need to ready to fire, so making them cost effective requires a major direct hit before they are taken out and they only take one shot per turn. That leaves you with no serious range and close up shooters that can't react.
Bugs don't get to shoot in reaction.... their weapons are internal, not squad. Bugs can never go toe to toe in a shooting fight with MI... a standard 5 man MI unit with no extra points spent can roll 20 dice a turn if the shoot in both actions. That's without special weapons, they have higher ROF, longer range and are more numerous than bug ranged weapons. Look at firefrys, their range means that they have to enter reaction range to fire, that usualy means they have to use a jump action to even stand a chance of getting a shot off, MI with stay frosty of sense presence can stop that, pathfinders are a nightmare with 12" reaction as standard.
It's different if you haven't spotted that the bugs don't get to fire in reaction though..... they'd get kills when they should be being torn to pieces, it's easy to miss, we did at first.

Definately give officers shock sticks, a 19% chance of saving a 110 point model for 5 points is great value. For normal MI, it just makes them prohibitively expensive, save the points and buy more models... what's better: a unit of five with shocksticks, or a unit of six without? That's an extra 'hit' and two more morita dice.
They are a better proposition for pathfinders as it's a smaller percentage of total cost, but the best tactic is still to not get engaged in close combat, if you do, maximise the impact you have by beating feet and drawing the bugs up onto bigger guns.

 

[Makoto]

Actually firefries get to shot before the MI react - they shot on the jump, just like we do, meaning 21" range (12" jump + 9" shot range) - way outside any reactions. Getting few d10 shot in squad's face seriously limits reaction fire, besides if bug player is smart enough to have a brain at hand 'fries can then coordinate into charge, meaning few more d10's before we react again. Given the terrain it may even mean we won't get more than few odd shots with javelins and be forced to play rest of the battle at point-blank range, something that's favourable for bugs, not MI.
Also - bugs will get reactions, You can safely bet on it. They'll simply charge, without having any difference in effectiveness. Moreover, due to range and FZ size we'd be hard pressed to choose between shooting on our own troops and leaving front-line squads on their own (something LAMIs don't have that much trouble with, given smaller FZ).
Plasma bugs will simply ensure we don't stand well pack, and maybe even draw attention to themselves - both template size and firepower quarantees that.

Anyhow the point is, bugs can get a dangerous shooty army too, and it's something we should remember about.

 

[JoseDominguez]

Like I said in my post.... firefries need to jump to get a shot off.
As for charging in because you can't react, why spend the points on shooting you aren't going to use? Kind of proves my point.... I say you can't stand toe to toe bugs vs MI in a shooting contest, you say you can, because you can charge into close combat. That would be relying on close combat then, rather than shooting.
Bug shooting is not as good as MI shooting, that's my point. If bug shooting is anywhere near as effective as the MI, then the game is seriously unbalanced isn't it? Because the bugs are certainly better in close combat.
Just look at range, even with standard Moritas, the MI usualy have a turn of fire before firefries can get into range, remember, that jump attack needs a ready action.. that means a turn closing to within 21", then a turn where you ready and then jump. That's four actions to make a single shot. In the same time the MI have fired eight morita shots each at anything within range. Any left after the bugs jump then get to react. (plus any decent MI player will have crossfires setup.
The bug player needs to get exactly 21" away to keep out of range, if he's any closer the MI shoot with one action, then walk away with the other. And using cover is worthless, the PAMI can jump, ignoring any cover the bugs can clear. Firefries have their uses, mainly as a shock force in front of a warrior horde, they are also pretty good when you send a unit alongside a burrower.... that's got some shock value when they pop out. Other than that, the range is a major limit. Yes, on paper it's 21", but you need to be lucky with the cover layout and your opponent has to miss his crossfire zones.
We played SST to death with pretty much all options (our bug army has every option except a queen.... 200 warriors, 3 tankers, 30 hoppers, etc... etc...) The most flexible forces always relied on warriors, my favourite actually being a force with three brains and 120 workers... they were minced as they advanced, but they were so cheap it didn't matter, once a few units got into close combat, that was it (the three coordinates helped). I've been asked 'what about aircraft'.... I just ignored them, If an opponent goes cheesy fleet I tunnel down and wait. Air assets (except caps) can't score VP's even if they land. I like the themed bug armies, but never found one as effective as the basics.

 

[Galatea]

Firefries or (Acid) Ripplers don't need to react.
When a full Squad Firefries or 5 Acid Rippler anleash their load upon a PAMI/LAMI Squad there will be nothing left to return fire.

Just circle the enemy, encourage him to split his forces and then use your speed (or reserves) to wipe off seperated Squads entirely.

As for firefries - allright, they die if look at them but you don't want to have them charging into one of your units. That's a lot of D10 and those beasts are really, really cheap.

 

[human_target]

Firefries with a Burrower Bug are L E T H A L.

My Pathfinders found out the hard way.

Myself I'll be trying the next approach for tonight's game:

+LT in Grizzly with 2 x Firestorm
+NCO in Grizzly with 2 x Sixgun
+Assault squad: M8 Ape with 2 x Hel Infantry flamer and a cap with the
same flamer (a total of 6 figs)
+Short range support squad with 2 x Triple Thud (8 figs)
+Long range support squad with M9 Chickenhawk (fully kitted with Twin Fifty autocanon, Javelin, sixgun,blizzard, utility claws) and a cap with Javelin (5 figs total)

Long range support and Lt will be the most static squads in the game if everything goes as planned (which obviously isn't always going according to plan), but I try to always remember we're talking about the Mobile Infantry so I'll try to keep my forces as mobile as possible.

S

 

[JoseDominguez]

Why would an enemy with superior range and firepower split his forces?
Seriously, who are you playing?
A squad of MI with decent weapons can pretty much hit anything on the board, with a jump + shoot they can fire over most cover, what can you do to force them to come to you? And face it, the MI will usualy have the lower PL and therefore the more defensive stance for vp's anyway). The bugs have limited range, so they need to come in to get a shot off.

Firefries are cheap for a reason..... they are very easy to kill. Yes, they have a 21" range if you include their jump. Brilliant, PAMI have a 32" range if you include their's. As for pathfinders.... they get to re-roll cover saves vs shooting and are even more heavilly equipped.

Bug shooting has it's uses, it's an excellent shock tactic and can wake up an MI player who is used to sitting and waiting for the tunnels to pop up. But relying on it vs an army with superior range and firepower with units that normally only get to fire once before being slaughtered?
Imagine as a bug player, if you could jump into close range of an enemy unit without having to worry about it reacting and shooting you to bits... reaction fire is the biggest consideration when advancing on an MI army, you get to ignore that completely vs bugs. It can't be discounted, the limitations reaction fire puts on an army's movement are just as important as the casualties it can inflict.
The other implication is financial cost...... a superior MI ranged force is very cheap to buy and to keep flexible. Good luck doing that with bugs. We have, our group spent a fortune on 'all options' yet we still don't see those shooty bug armies very often. (ANd I've never seen a blister/blaster since the first six months!).

I don't realy see what the debate is about now.... are bugs as good at shooting as MI? If so the game is totally unbalanced and the bugs should never be beaten (as they are certainly much better in CC and their command structure is easier to maintain). I haven't noticed any shooty bug armies wiping any board clean recently, maybe there's something in that?

 

[JoseDominguez]

Firefries with a Burrower Bug are L E T H A L.

My Pathfinders found out the hard way.

Myself I'll be trying the next approach for tonight's game:

+LT in Grizzly with 2 x Firestorm
+NCO in Grizzly with 2 x Sixgun
+Assault squad: M8 Ape with 2 x Hel Infantry flamer and a cap with the
same flamer (a total of 6 figs)
+Short range support squad with 2 x Triple Thud (8 figs)
+Long range support squad with M9 Chickenhawk (fully kitted with Twin Fifty autocanon, Javelin, sixgun,blizzard, utility claws) and a cap with Javelin (5 figs total)

Long range support and Lt will be the most static squads in the game if everything goes as planned (which obviously isn't always going according to plan), but I try to always remember we're talking about the Mobile Infantry so I'll try to keep my forces as mobile as possible.

S

Firefries with a burrower are lethal, but nowhere near as effective as burrowers and hoppers or ripplers Watch out for that too. Shoot his bug holes with firestorms, if he's trying it again, firefries won't survive the multihit underground.
I's split the ape.... make it an NCO. Putting apes in cap units slows the unit down considerably and has no real benefit (the shooting rules don't really let you screen the hits and bugs can single him out in CC as he has more than one hit). Same for the chickenhawk, it's great but if the unit jumps to shoot.... it can't fire. I'd suggest making the LT and NCO marauders (at 110 points each rather than 45 for exos) and taking the marauders out of the units. That's a (340-130) 210 points to spend, I'd suggest buying an exo NCO for 145 and an additional flamer/javelin for the cap units. (or put the lt in the exo)
You may lose a single exo, but the increased flexibility is worth it.... e.g. if you have two targets, one behind cover and one in the open, having your chickenhawk separate means it can fire twice at the exposed target while your javelin unit jump/shoots over cover. Having them combined means you waste two lots of chickenhawk fire every time you jump. The ape simply slows down your assault unit with it's slow jump rate.

 

[Galatea]

I've made good experience with blasters.
Surely they aren't gonna win the game, but if you field ten of them the MI will never be willing to leave cover - so you limit his mobility to a large degree.
Ten Blasters can easily wipe out a Squad of CAPs if caught in the open (and even to covered troopers they can be nasty for 6+1 is a Kill, so 1,7 Kills per turn).

For the Ripplers - don't underestimate their durability. They have target 6 and a 5+ dodge save. Even in hover mode they can sustain much more fire than you give them credit for.


Oh, and we have a little more terrain on our battlefields than just one wood and two hills. Not that big problem to hide 5 Ripplers form direct fire.
Indeed they excel in cityfight.
(Most time the MI will have other problems anyway - like this tide of Warrior Bugs sweeping across the ground)

If there's one Rippler Squad to the left and one to the right, both strafing the MI and duck for cover afterwards it can really get interesting.

 

[human_target]

Thanks for the feedback Jose,

I'll try to keep that in mind.

I usualy put the Marauder (in case of an M8) in front of the unit, while keeping the caps a little further away.
Until now, my Ape has gone toe to toe with a Tanker and almost won the battle, and more than once he has kept swarms of warriors busy for a few rounds (and then he was only armed with yhe Ape Morita Special)
With 2 Hel Infantry flamers he can take on almost anything in close combat methinks.

Call me a fool, but when I put together an armylist I mostly go for the 'fluff' and less for the glory.

But I'll try it out in a later stage.

c u
s

 

[Makoto]

As for charging in because you can't react, why spend the points on shooting you aren't going to use?

You miss the point entirely... Just the fact that bugs can't shot on reaction, doesn't equal lack of reaction on their part. In 'fries case they can combine good shooting attack with following equally strong charge, which means flexible army.
But even that's beside the real point - important thing is bugs too can get a force strong on shooting while still being better than us in close combat, and as MI players we'd be foolish to dismiss such possibility and expect them to rely on claws only.

Just look at range, even with standard Moritas, the MI usualy have a turn of fire before firefries can get into range, remember, that jump attack needs a ready action.. that means a turn closing to within 21", then a turn where you ready and then jump. That's four actions to make a single shot. In the same time the MI have fired eight morita shots each at anything within range.

Where did the 4 extra morita volleys come from? Unlike the bugs we can't coordinate Besides there's terrain to take into account (halves number of shots), and battle layout - not always wise to advance just to get an extra morita volley and end up too close to the bugs.
Also, smart bug won't commit forces piecemeal, meaning that while javelins/other heavies will get two shots in this time, moritas will either be silent, or forced to advance. In case of terrain usually jump, which means lowered target.

We played SST to death with pretty much all options (our bug army has every option except a queen.... 200 warriors, 3 tankers, 30 hoppers, etc... etc...)

So do other groups. Just the fact people come up with different (doesn't mean "worse") conclusions means only that the system is well designed, not that any of us can state anything with the "oracle-certainity". Besides, were we do discuss freedom of options sorry, can't beat what we have here - kinda shame on us, but we do allow any proxies at all, meaning there is nothing besides points to limit people while prepping the list for club game.

my favourite actually being a force with three brains and 120 workers...

Frankly if this force managed to achieve any success it's probably because opponents were too dependant on heavy (marauders and exos) or special forces (pathfinders/roughnecks). Any list containing LAMIs would be able to dish out enough d6 to get through it with light to moderate loses. In favourable terrain it's quite possible most of those casualties would go down to brain bugs.
Which (again) only prooves (sp?) there are no "uber" lists in SST.

 

[Galatea]

my favourite actually being a force with three brains and 120 workers...

Doesn't work well against Exos. They have enough far ranged sixgun fire to smash any Bug horde apart (and more important they have drop capsules).
It can work against LAMI, because they are too short-ranged (in comparison to mentioned Exos). Just remember you have 2 Ego Wars per turn.

For the list - prefer 'The Cloud' - proves well against anything except Marauders and CHAS though Hoppers can still deal a big amount of damage here.
To any other units, (Acid) Ripplers and Hoppers are lethal. And the whole army is really really fast - much faster than the average MI Force.

 

[JoseDominguez]

So, are bugs as good at shooting as MI?
That was the point of the discussion, answer is........ no
They can't rely on just being a shooting force.
Correct?
That was my point, not that they couldn't shoot or that shooting wasn't useful, just that shooting wasn't their strength. OK?.
Read back, all I said was bugs couldn't sit back and win in a shooting fight........ :roll:

 

[Galatea]

Bugs can sit back very well if they field 3 Plasmas and the MI is short of nukes (or have other problems to deal with).
When they come they will be eaten and when the hang back they will be vaporised by plasma discharge.

Though I wouldn't describe having a good artillery as 'good in shooting'


But Bugs aren't that bad in shooting. Their shooting may be of an offensive pattern, but a Squad of Blasters in Warrior Horde can proof very lethal.
They can't match MI but they don't have to.

(p.s. for a really ugly shooting surprise try to attach 10 ripped CAP Troopers to a Burrower Bug. Got a buddy with that trick.)

 

[JoseDominguez]

Control bugs attached to a cap troopers are really irritating if they are scattered across an army. Caps have to commit to take them out, then they get charged. Loads of fun shooting stuff you can do with bugs,just can't rely on it to win a game.
Plasmas are good when they get a hit in, but I prefer them as a distraction, by the time the MI have wasted every javelin and nuke they've got on them, they get swarmed by cheap workers. Still hard to beat a player who uses his tunnels well. Having said that, I did once see an entire exo squad, LT and two marauders taken out by a plasma bug (there were real tears in his eyes too).
My favourite tactic so far was to place a camo entrance on the mid-line, right next to a normal tunnel entrance, advance three units towards the normal entrance at normal rate, enemy lined up around it and destroyed it, forcing (he thought) my units to tunnel up, giving him a 'fish in a barrel' scenario. In turn two I moved to the camo entrance, got the free tunnel up and had my first unit (warriors) shredded by reaction. Next unit was five hoppers and a burrower.... screened by the remnants of unit one as it tunneled up. Readied and then attacked with coordinate.
It worked well in that game, but the long term benefits are better, I've now got an opponent who won't go within two feet of a tunnel marker just in case
Only problem with that tactic is having to use small units... e.g. any more than five hoppers, blaster etc.. and you can't get them out of the bug hole in one action, so your stuck. Better with controlled caps though... as you can get all ten up.

To be honest, our last few games suffered from the pathfinders, the reaver missile can pretty easily breach a tunnel marker (7+ on d10), I love my pathfinders, but I felt it unbalanced the game pretty badly. I avoided over-equipping them and left the units at five men (serg, 3 snipers and a javelin) that meant lots of units and lots of javelins.... Second plattoon was PAMI with a decent mix of high ROF weapons. I think the pathfinders should have been a little rarer, definately more specialised and the reaver heat missile more expensive (pathfinders actually pay less for their javelins than PAMI, I never understood that). Taking them alongside PAMI or LAMI counteracts the expense anyway.
I know they've been changed in EVO though.