Game Balance - Hopes and fears for 2nd Edition

[MongooseMatt]

Also, on the fighters issue, this seems to have been effectively ignored or poopooed by certain people.

Not by me, though I was thrown by no notion that cheese was generally stronger than metal.

iving a fighter a benefit for being small as part of its hull score (but not, it would seem, giving large ships a penalty for being big) on the basis of it being 'more evasive' is fuzzy logic.

I have never, ever said that. And I can tell you now that it is not a design element of CTA.

From an earlier reply by yourself Matt, the notion that it's easier to armour a 10m long, 1 man fighter against a 1.21 jiggawatt laser than it is a 1.5km long behemoth of destruction is a bit... odd, too.

Okay, it goes like this; The fragility of fighters is taken into account by the one hit mechanic of them. If they get hit, they die (actually, it is worth remembering that, in most cases, if they get hit, six die).

Does a Hull 5 fighter flight have the same armour as a Nova (which I believe is what you are getting at)? No. However, a weapon may work just as hard to remove six Hull 5 fighters as it would a single point of Damage on the Nova.

It is also worth pointing out that, in some cases, the distinction between fighters and ships is blurred with the introduction (and there will be more of them in 2e) of the super heavy fighters. These really are mini-ships but, for simplicity, we treat them with the fighter rules.

Now, please bear in mind that you are by no means required to agree with the above (!). I am merely explaining why we have done certain things, with the hope of convincing you that a suitable amount of thought has gone behind it.

 

[H]

Good of you to comment on these things Matt, but could you possibly pop onto the troligan thread and give us some thoughts?

 

[MongooseMatt]

If stealth going to be like is on screen, then Minbari ships will have to be tougher. Most shots bounce off & they seem to able take more punishment than other ships. Damn Crystaline armour.

With the exception of the White Star (where Adaptive Armour comes into play), this is most certainly not reflected on screen. Have a look at In the Beginning or Points of Departure, to name two off the top of my head.

 

[Alexb83]

Sorry Matt, I know you didn't say that evasiveness=hull, but others have in this very thread, and some are playtesters to the best of my knowledge.

I will probably get the 'it's been considered' answer. But what about lowering hull scores and adding a BF:E-esque 'ignores the first failed dodge' to fighters? This evades the issue you brought up of swamping the board with 'lower value' fighters. It also makes AF weapons that much more desirable.

I have real difficulty rationalising hull 5, dodge 2+ fighters. The difficulty to hit those 6 in the squad is surely, IMO, suitably accounted for in the fact that they get to roll to evade the fire with their dodge score. Again it comes back to what does 'hull' mean, and what does 'dodge' mean.
If the concern is that 2+ dodge just isn't enough, make it 1+ dodge and rethink the spread of AF weapons (or the antifighter trait). It'll up the usage of maligned escort ships.

 

[MongooseMatt]

Sorry Matt, I know you didn't say that evasiveness=hull, but others have in this very thread, and some are playtesters to the best of my knowledge.

Playtesters are free to have their own opinions on the thinking behind the game, and they need not (and usually aren't!) those of the designer

I will probably get the 'it's been considered' answer. But what about lowering hull scores and adding a BF:E-esque 'ignores the first failed dodge' to fighters? This evades the issue you brought up of swamping the board with 'lower value' fighters. It also makes AF weapons that much more desirable.

Actually, I don't know if we have considered this particular variation

However, my first reaction would be to say that we are looking to decrease the book-keeping on fighters, and effectively giving them a Damage score would be way, way over the top, as you would need to track every flight on the board - having 2 Damage flights in VaS has convinced me of that, and there are generally less flights around in that game.

 

[emperorpenguin]

But what about lowering hull scores and adding a BF:E-esque 'ignores the first failed dodge' to fighters?

increases book-keeping

.

Again it comes back to what does 'hull' mean, and what does 'dodge' mean.

again you are trying to slice up and define a d6 too much! It is abstract!

It'll up the usage of maligned escort ships.

wait and see 2nd ed to see if "escorts" are maligned...

 

[Burger]

we have given other fleets the means to lower Stealth, to the point where on many ships they can automatically bypass it, _if_ they succeed in doing certain things. In turn, the Minbari player has to work to stop them achieving this.

I am glad to hear there will be things a Minbari player can do in 2e, to prevent his stealth being lowered. In 1e there are precious few options, other than sit there and take it.

How about a Scout being used to "jam" another Scout, and remove its effects (either stealth reduction or redirect fire) for the turn? That would be cool. CQ 9 I'd say

 

[H]

we have given other fleets the means to lower Stealth, to the point where on many ships they can automatically bypass it, _if_ they succeed in doing certain things. In turn, the Minbari player has to work to stop them achieving this.

I am glad to hear there will be things a Minbari player can do in 2e, to prevent his stealth being lowered. In 1e there are precious few options, other than sit there and take it.

How about a Scout being used to "jam" another Scout, and remove its effects (either stealth reduction or redirect fire) for the turn? That would be cool. CQ 9 I'd say

surely the best method was to always blow the crap out of your opponent. Always worked for the minbari I play against!

 

[Da Boss]

Can you jam a Scout that is jamming a Scout.............

 

[MongooseMatt]

How about a Scout being used to "jam" another Scout, and remove its effects (either stealth reduction or redirect fire) for the turn? That would be cool. CQ 9 I'd say

Oh, scouts are going to have to work hard against a Minbari fleet, I promise you

 

[MongooseMatt]

surely the best method was to always blow the crap out of your opponent. Always worked for the minbari I play against!

That can work, though I usually try to destroy his fleet instead.

 

[Alexb83]

But what about lowering hull scores and adding a BF:E-esque 'ignores the first failed dodge' to fighters?

increases book-keeping

.

Again it comes back to what does 'hull' mean, and what does 'dodge' mean.

again you are trying to slice up and define a d6 too much! It is abstract!

It'll up the usage of maligned escort ships.

wait and see 2nd ed to see if "escorts" are maligned...

I don't think I am slicing it up too much, EP - the words 'dodge' and 'hull' have implicit meaning, especially when you consider the definitions of 'Armour Piercing' and 'Super Armour Piercing' with relation to 'Hull'.

 

[emperorpenguin]

How about a Scout being used to "jam" another Scout, and remove its effects (either stealth reduction or redirect fire) for the turn? That would be cool. CQ 9 I'd say

Something we have considered alright!

 

[H]

surely the best method was to always blow the crap out of your opponent. Always worked for the minbari I play against!

That can work, though I usually try to destroy his fleet instead.

:lol:

 

[Target]

If stealth going to be like is on screen, then Minbari ships will have to be tougher. Most shots bounce off & they seem to able take more punishment than other ships. Damn Crystaline armour.

With the exception of the White Star (where Adaptive Armour comes into play), this is most certainly not reflected on screen. Have a look at In the Beginning or Points of Departure, to name two off the top of my head.

It's just i've never actually seen a Sharlin explode from enemy fire, unless you are counting the nova raming one as a kill. A shadow ship sliced one but not sure if it died as i think it made back to B5, there was one with similar wounds afterwards but thats by my poor memory.
They always seemed to make it back. Some are very badly damaged but they still there.
No Sharlin has ever died or sustained major damage from pulse weapons unlike EA, Centauri & Narn ships which seem explode all the time.
In the Battle of the Line they seem to take a lot of hits but not much happens. They even say they can't hurt our ships.

 

[katadder]

we have given other fleets the means to lower Stealth, to the point where on many ships they can automatically bypass it, _if_ they succeed in doing certain things. In turn, the Minbari player has to work to stop them achieving this.

I am glad to hear there will be things a Minbari player can do in 2e, to prevent his stealth being lowered. In 1e there are precious few options, other than sit there and take it.

How about a Scout being used to "jam" another Scout, and remove its effects (either stealth reduction or redirect fire) for the turn? That would be cool. CQ 9 I'd say

actually I did suggest ECCM capabilities on some scouts.

 

[H]

If stealth going to be like is on screen, then Minbari ships will have to be tougher. Most shots bounce off & they seem to able take more punishment than other ships. Damn Crystaline armour.

With the exception of the White Star (where Adaptive Armour comes into play), this is most certainly not reflected on screen. Have a look at In the Beginning or Points of Departure, to name two off the top of my head.

It's just i've never actually seen a Sharlin explode from enemy fire, unless you are counting the nova raming one as a kill. A shadow ship sliced one but not sure if it died as i think it made back to B5, there was one with similar wounds afterwards but thats by my poor memory.
They always seemed to make it back. Some are very badly damaged but they still there.
No Sharlin has ever died or sustained major damage from pulse weapons unlike EA, Centauri & Narn ships which seem explode all the time.
In the Battle of the Line they seem to take a lot of hits but not much happens. They even say they can't hurt our ships.

I seem to recall a sharlin being actually cut in two by a shadow ship, and the two bits drifting apart! And while it was only the engies that got cut off, the Trigati definatly got sliced!

 

[emperorpenguin]

A shadow ship sliced one but not sure if it died as i think it made back to B5, there was one with similar wounds afterwards but thats by my poor memory. .

that one went boom! it definitely didn't get home it was sliced in two! :wink:

 

[Da Boss]

well the Minbari killed one themselves and I thought all the ships hit by the Shadows died - they did, I think in the 1000 year ago wars and in the battle between them and the Army of Light.

 

[captainsmirk]

The only Minbari ships fired on with pulse weapons were those during the E-M war where the EA ships couldn't hit because of stealth...

All the others attacked were attacked with beams.


Nick