Fuel Costs

[Ishmael]

it seems to me that a hypersonic pass through a gas giant's atmosphere is a lot more dangerous and expensive ( in terms of manpower/equipment usage ) than hooking up a fuel nozzle to the tank filler.
You pay the fuel company money so that THEY will do the dangerous work for you.

Water taken from a tap or water bottle sure tastes a lot better than water from the ocean despite the fact that ocean water is effective free.
aka..
when was the last time the purifier was serviced?
Can it filter out that weird unexpected compound from the soup they call an ocean/atmosphere?
how many impurities can get through before it totally screws up your engineering section bad enough to need a total overhaul ( assuming it doesn't have a catastrophic failure first )?

 

[Zowy]

In a trade type ship, I am looking for fast insystem turn around. So with processers, pay for unrefinde fuel when i can and refined fuel when the locals force me to.

In a 100 dTon Scout it depends on what else I am doing and how badly I need to save $$.

 

[Gaidheal]

What you're asking for, in MonT terms is a D66 table as follows:

11 = 1 o'clock
12 = 2 o'clock
13 = 3 o'clock
14 = 4 o'clock
15 = 5 o'clock
16 = 6 o'clock
...
35 = 5 o'clock
36 = 6 o'clock
41 = 7 o'clock
42 = 8 o'clock
43 = 9 o'clock
44 = 10 o'clock
45 = 11 o'clock
46 = 12 o'clock
...
65 = 11 o'clock
66 = 12 o'clock

Getting a linear probability from 2D6 is precisely what the "D66" roll is about.

 

[The Chef]

isn't it likely that certainly for high tech/adv stellar worlds the gas giant would be used for insystem fuel quotas to the main world and colonies. therefore most likely will have a system defence boat or two (or at least a couple of satelites) to keep tresspassers out, or to at least tax them for the use of their gas giant.

surely it would be trying to get a couple of barrells of oil out of an oil rig?

as with today, fuel will still be in demand and any governmental/corporate power will be looking to protect their assets rather than have some freeboating traveller come up and steal their fuel for free. especially as with the quantaties involved there would be a significant monetary value to this.

 

[phild]

isn't it likely that certainly for high tech/adv stellar worlds the gas giant would be used for insystem fuel quotas to the main world and colonies. therefore most likely will have a system defence boat or two (or at least a couple of satelites) to keep tresspassers out, or to at least tax them for the use of their gas giant.

Seems possible, especially if there are excerbating factors such as low supply of gas giants, high mainworld population or key position on a trade or x-boat route. It could add a bit of spice to an adventure if, in your campaign, it's not a simple exercise of skimming but you have to talk, pay or sneak your way in to the gas giant.

Then again, restrict this sort of thing too much and you're creating incentives for alternate technologies to be developed, like the Back to the Future matter compressor for example! Why skim from a gas giant when you can just collect a whole bunch of space refuse and dump that into the fuel refiner!? It probably doesn't stand up to True Science scrutiny, but just like the sun will happily suck up any matter you throw at it, once you've got a controlled fusion reaction going, just dump whatever crap you have lying around in there. Might not be as good as refined fuel, but if you need to throw in a couple of low berths and half of your armour shielding in order to get home, that's what you'll do!

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

It even works with dice other than merely Red and Green

What about two green dice?! :shock:

Just kidding. That's sufficiently slick. Thanks. 8)

The dice that lands closest to you is the mod dice (1 or 2) and the one farthest away from you is the number dice...

I know you were joking, but seriously there are ways around not having multi-colored dice...

 

[Gaidheal]

And yet, people still ask "what's a D3?" ;¬)

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

I also use a concept I call Pyramid dice.

Take a D6:
1-3: 1
4-5: 2
6: 3

Or a D10:
1-4: 1
5-7: 2
8-9: 3
10: 4

It comes in handy some times.

 

[Gaidheal]

Aye, done that - it's just a simple way of doing a linear probability table for rarity, with that number of distinct results. What did you use it for?

 

[GypsyComet]

Part of the problem within MGT is that the fuel processor lost a TL detail. Fuel processors used to have a minimum size that made them un-profitable to install until higher TLs, at least in small ships.

Some numbers...

The cost of a Fuel Purification system adds Cr208.333 (call it Cr209) per installed ton to the monthly mortgage cost, and deprives a ship of *at least* Cr1000 of income space (cargo space at Freight rate) per jump, for a total Cr2209 per month COST.

A Free Trader uses 44 tons of fuel per month, for a cost saving of Cr17,600 (refined vs raw) per month, and an overall balance sheet profit of over Cr15,000 for having that one ton of fuel processor.

This number changes if the ship requires heavy speculation to make mortgage, since that ton of lost cargo space is felt more strongly, but it takes a brokerage genius and a lot of seed cash to routinely make Cr9,000 per ton per jump, which is where that ton of cargo space lost becomes a loss instead of profit.

But what if you can't install just one ton?

Under CT, even at TL15 you couldn't install less than 3 tons, and at TL12 that became 6 tons. At 6 tons minimum, the above equation for a Free Trader becomes a lot closer, with the cost rising to Cr13,250 (round) and the operational profit dropping to just Cr4,350 assuming freight, which is a dangerous assumption for a Free Trader. That lost cargo tonnage now becomes a liability at Cr1,400 a ton (per trip average) of spec cargo, which is MUCH easier for a trader to make.

As context, a new Free Trader by the MGT Core book needs to make roughly Cr1,100 per cargo ton per trip (assuming no High Passengers), so speculation is already common, if not required, for such ships.

 

[AndrewW]

I also use a concept I call Pyramid dice.

Ah, I just use my d6 that rolls 1-3.

Position wise (compared to a standard d6):

1,6 = 1
2,5 = 2
3,4 = 3

 

[Gaidheal]

Aye, but that doesn't alter the distribution at all - you get a straight 1/3 chance of any result; what we were discussing is a weighted table, in essence.

 

[AndrewW]

Aye, but that doesn't alter the distribution at all - you get a straight 1/3 chance of any result; what we were discussing is a weighted table, in essence.

Yup, just mentioning it. Didn't mean to say it was weighted.

 

[Gaidheal]

No worries, I just wondered with you choosing to repost that part about "pyramid dice". :¬)

 

[AndrewW]

No worries, I just wondered with you choosing to repost that part about "pyramid dice". :¬)

Just where I happened to quote it, didn't see a need to repeat all of it but wanted a reference point was all.

 

[Gaidheal]

Sure thing, so any opinion on fuel costs, while we're here? ;¬)

I think my angles on it have been covered, for example; I'd find it hard to believe that a well policed system is going to permit the random raping of its oceans for 'free' fuel and probably going to take a similar line with gas giants, especially as it's likely whence they get the unrefined fuel they sell on.

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

I make the players roll against the LL of the planet with a DM for the Hydrographics percentage to see if ocean refueling is allowed.

I have used:

Hydro 1-2: -3
Hydro 3-5: -1
Hydro 9: +1
Hydro 10: +3

Roll over the LL of the planet.

 

[Gaidheal]

Hmm, wouldn't it make more sense for you to make that roll (or simply rule on it) at the creation time of the planet? It's not as if the PCs' skills can suddenly alter the legal system, after all?

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

True, and I only rolled it when it came up (can't roll everything for every planet).

I let them roll it because it created suspense. THEY cared more than I did, so rolling that number meant something to them.

 

[GypsyComet]

Sure thing, so any opinion on fuel costs, while we're here? ;¬)

I think my angles on it have been covered, for example; I'd find it hard to believe that a well policed system is going to permit the random raping of its oceans for 'free' fuel and probably going to take a similar line with gas giants, especially as it's likely whence they get the unrefined fuel they sell on.

The key is "well policed".

A world with only 100,000 people is not going to be able to police its oceans unless it is either higher tech (8+ for the right sensor tech), or really doesn't have very much water. Note that 100,000 people is the average the system produces, and that more than half of all worlds will have 100,000 OR FEWER people.

What goes for the worlds oceans goes double for a gas giant. Low tech world with no local ship construction = un-patrolled gas giants.

Make the same assumptions as the OTU and you add megacorporations to the mix. "Sure, we'll manage your gas giant for you!"

As for the actual Cr prices... note that all of the costs and income sources of a starship should balance out to support the level of commerce the setting calls for. While this is a constant source of... discussion... in Traveller circles, it is ultimately a decision the Ref needs to make.

Just keep in mind that if you can't build a dedicated no-frills bulk freighter that can make a little profit on plain freight then you are probably not charging enough for freight OR something in the expenses column is too costly. The price of fuel factors into that, so if you change that, you may find that something else will need to change as well.

Tinker away.