Floating an idea: Battle groups

[MustEatBrains]

I like the idea; reminds me of the old company cards in Epic. However, I think it would work better in larger games or on a larger scale (enter the FA-maniacs! ); I like the normal priority-level system quite a bit for the normal ACTA games, AND I want to choose which ships to take, even if it doesn´t necessarily make sense tactically (e.g. as many Omegas in a EA fleet as I can squeeze into the fleet points).

On a larger scale, it could work, though, as long as the choice is more flexible than "if you want this ship, you have to take those as well"...

Maybe somethig like: "For every battle task force in your fleet, you must/may take upt to two raid task forces of your choice"; with a task force consisting of a squadron (3) ships of the relevant size...

Just an example, of course, and not a good one at that. Still, it´s a good idea of yours, and if you can fit it into (or work around) the usual priority level system, it could be a nice variant of the game (or even the base of a altogether new game!).

I´d love to see that concept developed further!

 

[Silvereye]

I do not see a points value helping too much. If a player wanted to take a fleet filled with just Saggatarius, they will just pay the points for a Saggitarius fleet. They just might have a number of points left over to min/max something else into the mix is all.

 

[mthomason]

AND I want to choose which ships to take, even if it doesn´t necessarily make sense tactically (e.g. as many Omegas in a EA fleet as I can squeeze into the fleet points).

Hmm.

Yeah, it's people like you I'm trying to stop with this! :lol:

 

[Reaverman]

This smacks very much of the SST method of selecting models and assets

 

[MustEatBrains]

Rather than tell people to take the ships. or force them. Why not educate people, on the benifits of a balanced fleet.

maybe because people just don´t want/need to be educated? Some only use canon ships, other as many small/big ships as they can fight, or whole fleets consisting of just one ship-class altogether... why make people change that? Some of those fleets work well, others don´t, and some are so effective that they give their player an unfair advantage over their opponent, but you find that in every game...

Like I said before, I like this battle group/task force idea, but to organize larger battles, not to force players to use ships someone else thinks are more appropiate/balanced/whatever...

 

[MustEatBrains]

Hmm.

Yeah, it's people like you I'm trying to stop with this! :lol:

Why? It´s my choice what fleet is most fun to me, not your´s, right? You say that you know what´s best to take, I say I know it... mexican stand-of, isn´t it? :wink:

 

[Jellicoe]

It does make a lot of sense. To use a contemporary naval analogy (which admittedly is not always applicable) certain types of capital ships were/would never be deployed without some form of escort, e.g. fleet carriers in WWII or super carriers in the USN would not be deployed by themselves and would usually have some close escorts as they are simply too valuable. Ballistic missiles subs often have some form of distant cover by attack submarines.

It might be a little “unrealistic” to deploy a Poseidon by itself for 1 War point. Ok, the fleet might contain a few Omegas, Hyperions etc… but they would be engaged in close battle and not covering the carrier which would loiter at the fringes of the battlefield.

I.e. say for 1 war point one gets a Poseidon Carrier group composed of 1 Poseidon and a few escort, but these have to remain within say 5-10” of the carrier as an escort group for the first 5 rounds of a battle. This might overcome the prejudices some people have with the Poseidon being a weak ship for War level.

 

[mthomason]

Maybe somethig like: "For every battle task force in your fleet, you must/may take upt to two raid task forces of your choice"; with a task force consisting of a squadron (3) ships of the relevant size...

Working on that one

Most likely it'll be a case of covering each individual ship available at the given level that would feasibly be provided as a support vessel for the ship it is with (e.g. is not too far removed in the timeline), and then allowing for more of certain "weak" ships than of "strong" ships at the same PL. Again, one of the major points is to prevent people from saying "this ship is best at this PL so I just want lots of that one"

Given my own preference I would "theme" each group for a particular point in time. However, there's nothing to stop anyone who wants a little more flexibility saying "alternatively you can substitute any ship on the card for any other ship at the same PL" as at least it would still provide the same mix of ship sizes.

Getting some really good comments and ideas from everyone here, keep em coming

 

[mthomason]

Hmm.

Yeah, it's people like you I'm trying to stop with this! :lol:

Why? It´s my choice what fleet is most fun to me, not your´s, right? You say that you know what´s best to take, I say I know it... mexican stand-of, isn´t it? :wink:

Hehe

The idea with this is to make your fleet fun for your opponent to play against, too

Seriously, this is just an option for those who want a bit more "realism" and "fun" in their fleet at the expense of not having the best possible fleet available to them. The rules as they stand let you take "whatever you want", so this way there'll just be another variant that some people will like, and some will not.

 

[MustEatBrains]

Given my own preference I would "theme" each group for a particular point in time. However, there's nothing to stop anyone who wants a little more flexibility saying "alternatively you can substitute any ship on the card for any other ship at the same PL" as at least it would still provide the same mix of ship sizes.

That would work - if I look at my own preferences, I must say that I love to use canon ships, and ships that capture the "fleet-spirit" of those, but on the other hand there´s a number of ships I would never use, because I don´t like the miniatures.

Going back to the poseidon example above: If someone really wants to use a Poseidon (or a similar ship) without any backup, he has my blessing - because he won´t last until the fourth round! On the other hand, using a single Sharlin as your only ship is fully within character of the fleet! It´s a fine line here...

 

[mthomason]

The more I look at this, the more I'm convinced that a "task force card" (I'm cycling through possible names) should be an alternative that can be used as well as picking individual ships, using the idea that by taking groups of ships you get a little something for free as incentive for picking something "realistic". (thanks to Burger for that idea!)

If anyone wants a good background explanation for it, think of it as being a lot easier for you as the fleet commander to request from high command that a nearby formation of ships be assigned to you for the battle than asking for five individual ships to be detached from whatever their current assignments are.

The other advantage of doing it like this is that the cards don't get invalidated when a new ship comes out - you can still take them the "old fashioned" way until a new card is produced for them

 

[mthomason]

It would also mean three options -

You can choose to play "strict task forces only", using the cards *only* (with individual ships allowed just to fill a leftover point)

You can play "task forces allowed", using the cards as a way to get bonus ships for keeping within the spirit of sensible ship selection.

You can play "I hate task forces", throwing the cards out the window and just playing the game it was designed to be played

I think I've covered everyone...

 

[Reaverman]

It would also mean three options -

You can choose to play "strict task forces only", using the cards *only* (with individual ships allowed just to fill a leftover point)

You can play "task forces allowed", using the cards as a way to get bonus ships for keeping within the spirit of sensible ship selection.

You can play "I hate task forces", throwing the cards out the window and just playing the game it was designed to be played

I think I've covered everyone...

What about fleets that dont have man ships in them, like Drakh?

 

[mthomason]

Drakh (and the like) would just have a very limited number of options

Most likely "yes, you can just take lots of heavy/light raiders if you want, but if you take them with a destroyer you'll get a little bit extra bang for your buck"

I think encouragement rather than forcing people to take more of a mix is the key here.

 

[Reaverman]

Drakh (and the like) would just have a very limited number of options

Most likely "yes, you can just take lots of heavy/light raiders if you want, but if you take them with a destroyer you'll get a little bit extra bang for your buck"

I think encouragement rather than forcing people to take more of a mix is the key here.

Agreed

 

[Silvereye]

I think encouragement rather than forcing people to take more of a mix is the key here.

True. I'd guess it would be interesting to see more of the ships being used, however some races are very limited in their fleet choices.

It could be interesting to create a usable EA explorer division around an Explorer and see if anyone would actually consider it. Or the Narn system raider built around a Var'Nic, Ka'Tocs and Sho'Kar?

 

[Slightly Norse John]

I suppose my response to this one is something along the lines of 'yes, but'; partly because the historical argument seems like the counsel of perfection. Very often one side doesn't have the option- frequently you find a poorly prepared force or one that has taken losses scrambling and improvising, with an unbalanced and incomplete force structure, makeshifting and ad hoc' ing.

That aside, I too am wondering how to organise it.
Three ideas come to mind; first, points split- no more than 1/3 of your forces can come from any one PL? That hits problems with very large ships which might be worth more than one third of your total force, and low PL fights where some ships, and fleets, don't really fit. It is rough and ready enough to be instantly applied, tested and improved on.

Second, strict fleet rosters, composed of exactly what the battle group would consist of by the standard list. Contentious, with lots of potential arguments about exactly what constitutes a standard force. Also, it doesn't actually seem to be show canon. Think about the earth civil war; there's an awful lot of Omegas on screen, and very few escorts. The EA doesn't seem to do balanced fleet groups, it does send out forces composed entirely of 'Destroyers'.

Third, a tactical classification system- label a ship as Main Force, Capital, Escort, Support or Recon, as a working example, and restrict/assign them on that basis.
For a couple of examples, the Warlock- either version- would be a Capital unit, but the Sharlin would be Main Force. (the Sharkaan would be Capital.)
Basically, Main Force is the standard line combat units, which can fill up to, say, three quarters of your force.
For every three M.F ships- for Earth, Novas, Hyperion-CA and Omegas- you can have a Capital ship- the big, stupidly impressive heavies that aren't going anywhere without a flotilla of other ships to back them up.
Support ships are the ones that fulfil specialised roles in combat, standoff fire support like the Sagittarius, planetary bombardment like the Rohric, fighter support like the Balvarin. One for every two Main Force.
Recon units are, usually, the scouts, also basically any long ranged interdictor/intruder type used to go out and fight encounter battles. One in four, except two to support every Capital unit.
Escort ships would be the swarm of light craft to support the heavies. No more than one to one and no less than one to three Main Force choices. Despite it's name the Sulust would probably be Support rather than Escort.
I'm just running this up the flagpole to see who shoots at it; as with any radical change, there's the obvious problem- it would need a major supplement or wholesale reprinting of the existing books, if not re- playtesting. That aside, what do you think?

 

[Reaverman]

Dont forget, its going to have to come down to a general concensus on the fleet arrangements. One peson, is going give their own ideas on what another person thinks too

 

[Jhary]

Lets give it a try.

 

[Geekybiker]

Sounds interesting for a one off event.

Id still like to see some fleet composition rules/rarity levels in ships prevent people from taking entire fleets of variants, etc.