First session \ hit locations

[Blun-Tor the Hu-Man]

Tonight I ran my first ever session of Conan, and I used the hit points and hit locations charts from Runequest .

The hit locations and hit point layout made for great hits, on players and mooks, but I was having to fudge a lot of my damage rolls to not outright kill my players, as this was the first night and I didn't want them turned off because they died every time they got hit, which was pretty much what happened when I could roll above a freaking 3.

So instead of killing them outright, or making them lose a leg, I modded the damage a little bit, severely limiting movement when an arrow would have destroyed a leg (to -7) until a proper heal check could be made, and giving the character a permanent limp (and -5 to his movement rate because of his limp) once the wound had been "healed."

I don't want to give each body part a ton of HP, but I don't want them to die left and right either. Fun is the name of the game, and nickel and diming their characters to death one crippling flaw at a time seems like a way for characters to get mileage out of their unbelievably deadly 1st level characters. They didn't seem to mind the scars and limp, and when the character who limped scored a big hit to a mook with a head shot from his bow, I counted it as the mook losing his eye (not big enough to kill, but certainly to main permanently) he crowed the rest of the night (with another character who crit with both of his attacks (in the same round!) and subsequently beheaded his opponent.

Now if I could just get them to keep from brutally torturing the enemies they don't kill outright...

 

[Clovenhoof]

I was having to fudge a lot of my damage rolls to not outright kill my players,[...] hich was pretty much what happened when I could roll above a freaking 3.

Do you notice something? Hit locations aren't working. And they are unnecessary, too.

#1, Hit Points do not represent only physical damage. This discussion has really been done to death. At low levels you can forget about this, but at high levels, a character will simply soak a 10point damage and not lose another word about it, and that certainly does not mean that his liver was perforated.

#2, there already is a mechanism for striking unarmoured body parts in Conan. It is called Finesse. It's a very fast, elegant and effective mechanism to simulate going for certain (i.e. unarmoured) parts of the body.

#3, there also has always been a mechanism to simulate scoring good or poor hits, believe it or not. It is called the damage die. If you roll low, your blow is mostly absorbed by armour. It makes no sense first going for the neck, confirming a hit, and then doing no damage because you rolled a 1.

#4, Critical Hit and Massive Damage rules fully account for real good, physical hits, like chopping off a head or limb. If HP do not always resemble physical damge, Criticals usually do.

#5, permanent limp, are you SERIOUS? This is totally not in-genre. Conan characters are not _supposed_ to be crippled. Especially not after the first session. They are supposed to fight unhampered even if they have only 1HP left and then recover to full health within three or four days of rest.

Moreover, crippling rules work exclusively against the players and never for them. The mooks are not expected to survive a fight, so being crippled does not mean an increased danger to them. The PCs are meant to survive many fights. Very soon they will all be crippled while the mooks are not (or maybe a few, but certainly not all). It's due to this extreme one-sidedness that I refuse to incorporate effects like crippling into my game.

If you want a game to be real grim and gritty like that, okay, make changes like that or use the Grim&Gritty rules. (Though from what I read in your post, I have the feeling that a Grim&Gritty campaign is a milkrun compared to your introductory encounters.) But be aware that this is not in tune with the atmosphere of Conan.

So to make a long story short: drop the friggin hit location charts.

 

[sidkfjjteidlkkf]

I agree with Clovenhoof on this one. The mechanics of D20 and most level based systems make it almost impossible to incorporate hit locations and hit points to them.

Conan is rough enough without them.

 

[Trodax]

Tonight I ran my first ever session of Conan, and I used the hit points and hit locations charts from Runequest.

I'm not sure I understand you here; are you using the normal Conan d20 rules but with the Runequest rules for hit locations added on? In that case, how does this work? A character with 15 hit points total has like 5 hit points in each leg, 6 in the stomach, 4 in the head, that sort of thing?

 

[Blun-Tor the Hu-Man]

Clovenhoof made an excellent point about crippling the players. At the time, the player had to cauterize the wound with a hot dagger, and the heal checks he was assisting with were awful. I'll make his limp not permanent, but he's still going to hobble for a few days.

Granted, most of my players are only familiar with the films and some of the Dark Horse comics that I lent them, but I don't exactly see how I'm not in keeping with the flavor of the world.

The hit locations and the low hit points force the players to be a little more cautious, which doesn't mean they fight less, only that they need to think tactically about what they ought to do if there are a lot of arrows in the air (duck behind cover). The first encounter was kind of a mess, but the following ones went a lot better.

My goal isn't to mindlessly ape Howard. Conan was godlike, immune to charms, take any hit, break any neck, etc. He was scarred and bruised and beat-up, and if I get a big hit on a player, he's going to lose a piece of his ear, or earn a big scar. That's primarily where the hit locations have come into play, besides removing the legs from their enemies. I want these to be memorable encounters, not "I killed a bunch of mooks, and then I killed a bunch of mooks, then I snuck around, got caught and killed a bunch of mooks." My players talked all night about their lucky hits, the close calls, how they were going to track down the cowardly so-and-so who lopped off a piece of a player's ear and ran. Damage was mostly RP.

These guys aren't Conan clones, or more to the point, I won't let them be just because that's the flavor of the world or because they can kill anything I throw at them. They have got to earn being legendary, because as Conan should have taught you, no one ever gives it to you.

 

[Yogah of Yag]

Hmm.
Mixing Conan with Runequest strikes me as...unwholesome. :?
There are some OGL publishing attempts at incorporating stuff like called shots, hit locations, and subsequent penalties to game-crunch (e.g. Torn Asunder: Critical Hits, by Bastion Press), but as stated above, hp's are not just physical damage. I think the Master himself states these ideas most adequately:

Each character has a varying number of hit points, just as monsters do. These hit points represent how much damage (actual or potential) the character can withstand before being killed. A certain amount of these hit points represent the actual physical punishment which can be sustained. The remainder, a significant portion of hit points at higher levels, stands for skill, luck, and/or magical factors.

--E. Gary Gygax, PHB p. 34

HIT POINTS
It is quite unreasonable to assume that as a character gains levels of ability in his or her class that a corresponding gain in actual ability to sustain physical damage takes place. It is preposterous to state such an assumption, for if we are to assume that a man is killed by a sword thrust which does 4 hit points of damage, we must similarly assume that a hero could, on the average, withstand five such thrusts before being slain! Why then the increase in hit points? Because these reflect both the actual physical ability of the character to withstand damage - as indicated by constitution bonuses- and a commensurate increase in such areas as skill in combat and similar life-or-death situations, the "sixth sense" whith warns the individual of some otherwise unforeseen events, sheer luck, and the fantastic provisions of magical protections and/or divine protection. Therefore, constitution affects both actual ability to withstand physical punishment hit points (physique) and the immeasurable areas which involve the sixth sense and luck (fitness).

--E. Gary Gygax, DMG, p. 82

Other games systems, like Spycraft 2.0, have Vitality Points and Wound Points

Vitality Points
A character’s class levels and Constitution modifier determine his vitality points (see page 28 ). Vitality points are a mixture of endurance and luck, representing a character’s ability to avoid injury. Losing vitality points does not represent actual physical damage but rather combat fatigue, as it gradually becomes more difficult for the character to avoid being physically injured. As a character’s vitality points drop, he’s edging closer to exhaustion and the possibility of a nasty wound.

Wound Points
A character’s wound points are usually equal to his Constitution score (see page 28 ). Wound points represent a character’s ability to sustain injury. As a character’s wound points drop, he acquires abrasions, cuts, and eventually broken bones and worse.

--Spycraft 2.0, p. 332

Hope that helps.

 

[argo]

The hit locations and hit point layout made for great hits, on players and mooks, but I was having to fudge a lot of my damage rolls to not outright kill my players, as this was the first night and I didn't want them turned off because they died every time they got hit, which was pretty much what happened when I could roll above a freaking 3.

Yeah, that's prety much what's gonna happen every time if you try to keep using that system. Just wait until everybody gains a few levels, things will be much worse when your players are facing 20+ points of damage on a single hit.

I don't want to give each body part a ton of HP, but I don't want them to die left and right either. Fun is the name of the game, and nickel and diming their characters to death one crippling flaw at a time seems like a way for characters to get mileage out of their unbelievably deadly 1st level characters. They didn't seem to mind the scars and limp

Here is the problem; if you make these sort of "penalties" permenant then in a very short amount of time you will find your characters are quite unplayable. OTOH if you make the scars etc "flavor text" and the "penalties" non-permenant... then you are back to square one (ie: the players take large ammounts of damage and bounce back once they have time to heal) except that you end up with the, IMHO rediculous, scenario where your characters are covered head-to-toe in dozens of scars, missing ears, broken teeth, etc.

or to put it another way...

Moreover, crippling rules work exclusively against the players and never for them. The mooks are not expected to survive a fight, so being crippled does not mean an increased danger to them. The PCs are meant to survive many fights. Very soon they will all be crippled while the mooks are not (or maybe a few, but certainly not all). It's due to this extreme one-sidedness that I refuse to incorporate effects like crippling into my game.

^ what he said :wink:

Later.

 

[Blun-Tor the Hu-Man]

The locations worked. The hit points worked. The players enjoyed the game. A good time was had by all. There were some kinks that can be ironed out rather painlessly. All in all, I think it was success.

I can see your point about hit points, and it's valid. However, I'm trying something different, and with a little creative application, it appears to work, for me, for the player in my group, this one time at least. If it doesn't work as we progress farther, then we can change it.

It's not anything to be queasy, argumentative, or patronizing about. It's not the end of the world if the rules are changed. I will not bring an end to the Conan Mythos if one of my players loses a limb, or (God forbid!) dies.

 

[argo]

Easy now, nobody here is attacking you. You said in your first post that this was your first time running a game of Conan. We are simply trying to point out some of the potential (long term) flaws of using the RQ hit locations with this system, things you might not know if you haven't run the game before. Its constructive criticism.

Later.

 

[Jeffreywns]

Yes- please dont feel that your groups game is anything but the way it should be run. The number of posts next to a name never invalidates your ideas or opinions, and shouldnt be taken as " the correct way to play Conan". We have used the GURPS version longer than this has been out. Half the posts are converting it to D&D, and everyone has an opinion on one thing or another. I myself enjoy seeing new members on the forums, and their contributions to the hobby.

 

[Clovenhoof]

A riddle: "Opinions are like _____: everybody's got one, and most of them stink." =)

As argo said, we don't mean to tell you how you are supposed to run your game, but just want to point out, if you already have to fudge the rolls now to prevent TPK, it's not going to get better when the opposition starts dealing real damage at higher levels.

You can certainly run a Conan-style / Sword & Sorcery game with various systems. There are several threads on that topic here. There is gurps, there is d&d in various incarnations, there is Savage Worlds, and you can probably also use RuneQuest and what not... Conan OGL is only one way to skin a cat.
Myself, I did it exactly the other way, I wanted to play a Sword & Sorcery game, devised a world for it, and chose Conan OGL as game engine because it offers certain appealing features that no other system I know of has got.

 

[Hervé]

The idea seems not so bad to me, but maybe hit locations should be used only in special combat situations (duels, gladiatorial combat and so on...). I feel you should not bother to slow down combat pacing with more dice rolls than needed. When facing a group of goons, combat should be fast and deadly and should leave the PCs with only a few bruises. On the other hand, when fighting an important NPC, hit locations can be used to make combat more vivid, with the use of crippling blows and such...

 

[therion666]

Don't completely agree with the idea that you can't use hit locations D20. Just need to adjust them a little. A character wearing a Breastplate for example I think has a DR of 6, the same character finds a chain Haubauk will have a DR of 9 because of the two items.
Think sensibly however the character in question has a DR of 9 on his torso only, his arms, thighs and head have a DR of 5 still( can't remember the exact value but I'm saying 5) so a hit that strikes his arm would only have to penetrate a DR of 5.
The Helmet needs changing because I see no reason to have the helmet adding a +1 or plus 2, instead make the helmeted head have a DR of the value of the item worm, Leather cap( as per leather armour), chain coif( as per chain corselt), full metal helm( plate mail).
I've put in hot locations and even special effects for lucky hits, strike to to the knee causes a trip, strike to the hand cause a disarm, to the head a stunning or unconcieous( Saving throw Fort vs 10 plus the BAB of attacker).
This method just adds a bit more spike to the game, when your fighter gets tripped by street scum who prepare to dive onto him like a pack of jackals.
if you want a more detailed explaination email me. prossersteve@hotmail.com

 

[seanbickford]

I think giving a character a permanent limp is awesome, especially at low level. I don't think it should affect the game stat-wise, but it adds a lot of character for a high-level character to have a limp when it's cold or something.

"Remember when that weird black stone of Kovag-Re smashed my knee?"

Sean

 

[Sir Hackalot]

Actually Gygax also wrote somewhere that instead of killing a character off because that may screw up the game you are running instead give him a semi-permanent injury instead of killing him. You could do this with the mass damage rules, stating that a given character would have a severely injured arm or leg if he fails his fort save.

I agree that hit locations are OK but they can, in my experience slow down the game.

 

[Troll66]

get yourself a copy of torn asunder supplement by bastion press - its a hit location critical hit system which will be very useful to you i think