First game...thoughts.

Stingray

Mongoose
Hi all.

Played my first couple of games yesterday. I had been really looking forward to them, as the rules had read really well. Unfortunately, I was a bit disappointed in how the game played. I know the game is not meant to be 'crunchy', and is intended as fast play. That said, it was still a little...unsatisfying. I've broken down my thoughts on each section, although I've found my concerns difficult to pin down.

Movement: OK, no problems; does a fair job of linking vehicles and infantry in a coherent way.

Shooting: it seemed just too easy to hit. I think the lethality once you are hit is OK, but the fact there are no mods to hit for cover mean that all infantry are being hit half of the time (4+), with no modifiers for experience or cover. I know you are less likely to die and have a better save, but in the run of the mill (medium) cover you have a 50% chance of being hit and then a 2/3 chance of dying. I think it would be better to have modifiers to hit. In our games, infantry died in droves.

Close Combat: Really not happy with this bit. An infantry unit in a wooded area (LOS 1") being assaulted by another infantry unit can have a guy picked off the end (by careful placement of assaulting minis; you 'may move towards the enemy but do not have to). As this guy is in cover, he can react (lets say he shoots). The entire unit then counts as having reacted. The attacking unit can then charge again, this time with all his unit, without fear of reaction fire. I think it would be better if you had to maximise the figs in contact on a charge.

Lethal zones: a 1" lethal zone (say a tank shell); does that also generate a 3" Fire zone with those in the lethal zone taking more dice?

Like I say, I loved the way the rules read. I am hoping it was our interpretation of the rules that made the play experience unsatisfying.

Comments and queries welcome...
 
Stingray said:
Shooting: it seemed just too easy to hit. I think the lethality once you are hit is OK, but the fact there are no mods to hit for cover mean that all infantry are being hit half of the time (4+), with no modifiers for experience or cover. I know you are less likely to die and have a better save, but in the run of the mill (medium) cover you have a 50% chance of being hit and then a 2/3 chance of dying. I think it would be better to have modifiers to hit. In our games, infantry died in droves.

Infantry do die pretty fast in the game, but do bear in mind that there are cover bonusses.

Close Combat: Really not happy with this bit. An infantry unit in a wooded area (LOS 1") being assaulted by another infantry unit can have a guy picked off the end (by careful placement of assaulting minis; you 'may move towards the enemy but do not have to). As this guy is in cover, he can react (lets say he shoots). The entire unit then counts as having reacted. The attacking unit can then charge again, this time with all his unit, without fear of reaction fire. I think it would be better if you had to maximise the figs in contact on a charge.

You don't have to react to the first action. If someone charges in with one model (and recall, this counts as an action for the whole unit), you can choose to hold off and see what happens.

Lethal zones: a 1" lethal zone (say a tank shell); does that also generate a 3" Fire zone with those in the lethal zone taking more dice?

Exactly - the dice is assigned to a target in the fire zone and then all models within 1" of the assigned target take a roll as well.
 
You don't have to react to the first action. If someone charges in with one model (and recall, this counts as an action for the whole unit), you can choose to hold off and see what happens.

So in practice, assaulting units can choose to nibble away at units one model at a time (if the assault is going on in cover)?
 
Stingray, just get used to making house rules.

I'd say that when you declare a charge, every model in the unit has to move as far as it can to engage an unengaged enemy model.

The LoS rules are stinky, see my posts elsewhere... try fighting inside a wooded area where the entire enemy unit can waltz up to 1" away, then assault. You literally cannot shoot at an enemy inside a wood with you - if you get close enough to see them, you are in close combat.

Ever play paintball? Ever play in the woods? I have, and it was standard to engage other players from 30-40 yards away at times. It was exceedingly rare to find myself 5' away from another player. It happened more frequently inside and on speedball courts - which are 10x more open than a wooded area!
 
Stingray said:
You don't have to react to the first action. If someone charges in with one model (and recall, this counts as an action for the whole unit), you can choose to hold off and see what happens.

So in practice, assaulting units can choose to nibble away at units one model at a time (if the assault is going on in cover)?

In theory, yes, but you'd need to surround them with so many units to do it - remember that you can't activate one model at a time - the entire squad does the same action at the same time, so you can't move one trooper in to try and force a reaction, then a second and a third and so on.
 
Do what we do. Two reactions every turn. You wanna talk about massive casualities. We'll do that in large games that would normally take two hours plus, and do it in an hour. It's very past pace and brutal.
 
Stingray said:
You don't have to react to the first action. If someone charges in with one model (and recall, this counts as an action for the whole unit), you can choose to hold off and see what happens.

So in practice, assaulting units can choose to nibble away at units one model at a time (if the assault is going on in cover)?

Well the unit could react by moving away. They move, you move away, assault foiled, no casualties. Take that!
 
Stingray, just get used to making house rules.

I hate making up house rules. I want to play in the way the author intended; if that's what they intended and it's fun, then great. If the intended result is naff, I'll move to another rules set. If I liked making up house rules, I'd just write my own set from the ground up.

It would have the command and control system from Warmaster and everything else from Flames of War (but with individual figures rather than team bases) :wink:

Also, on table artillery is way too effective; you don't even need eyes-on the target in the first place (unlike off-table artillery).
 
Stingray said:
It would have the command and control system from Warmaster and everything else from Flames of War (but with individual figures rather than team bases) :wink:

Ahh taste is a difficult thing and none to argue about...

I was involved in play testing WM and painted many WM forces for GW and while I liked the game I hated the C&C system:
"Oh another failure on your command roll, your 400 pts of Chaos Warriors can not do anything again for this turn..."

In one game a friend of mine failed 4 turn in a row the command roll for one important unit, he never ever played the game again!
 
Hey, don't knock Warmaster, best and most realistic game to come out of the Nottingham sweatshops :wink:

Actually, I have three favourite WW2 games: Blitzkrieg Commander (which is based on Warmaster), I ain't been shot mum and now World at War. Each is on a different level; in BKC you have somewhere around a batallion or two on each side, each stand is a platoon; in IABSM you have about a company a side, you have roughly a company of troops activating by platoon and move by squads; finally in WaW you have a platoon, activating squads and move by teams.

All three have different ways of representing C+C and battlefield attrition. In BKC/Warmaster it's your command roll, in IABSM it's the card draws, in WaW it's the reaction system coupled with the importance of team leaders.
 
Agis said:
I was involved in play testing WM and painted many WM forces for GW and while I liked the game I hated the C&C system:
"Oh another failure on your command roll, your 400 pts of Chaos Warriors can not do anything again for this turn..."

Well armies weren't automatons doing everything general wants ;-) Haven't been, never will. Bit of unpredictability helps to simulate that instead of soldiers fighting precicely how you wish even to the death.
 
tneva82 said:
Well armies weren't automatons doing everything general wants ;-) Haven't been, never will. Bit of unpredictability helps to simulate that instead of soldiers fighting precicely how you wish even to the death.
Agreed, I just did not like the randomness in such a core game mechanic.
:wink:
But I have to agree that the C&C system was well suited for a game (like WM) that is representing Ancient to Musket era gaming.
 
Stingray said:
Shooting: it seemed just too easy to hit. I think the lethality once you are hit is OK, but the fact there are no mods to hit for cover mean that all infantry are being hit half of the time (4+), with no modifiers for experience or cover. I know you are less likely to die and have a better save, but in the run of the mill (medium) cover you have a 50% chance of being hit and then a 2/3 chance of dying. I think it would be better to have modifiers to hit. In our games, infantry died in droves.
Most troops have 50% of getting hit. In medium cover you should have 50% chance to avoid damage. As for Experience, units like the SAS have a Dodge score to avoid even a Kill and have "Elite Training" which gives them an additional +1 bonus in Cover.

But I do agree infantry die fast. But that is one of the "selling points" of the game, fast paced combat. It's less a simulation and more of a game mechanic. True firefights can last hours and hundreds of rounds of ammo.

Stingray said:
Close Combat: Really not happy with this bit. An infantry unit in a wooded area (LOS 1") being assaulted by another infantry unit can have a guy picked off the end (by careful placement of assaulting minis; you 'may move towards the enemy but do not have to). As this guy is in cover, he can react (lets say he shoots). The entire unit then counts as having reacted. The attacking unit can then charge again, this time with all his unit, without fear of reaction fire. I think it would be better if you had to maximise the figs in contact on a charge.
Woods and LOS don't work in Evo, already covered in our discussion here
http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=36826
In most other cases Close Combat works fairly well... at least until you start doing bumper cars with your vehicles. The realism breaks down a good bit there as well.

Stingray said:
Like I say, I loved the way the rules read. I am hoping it was our interpretation of the rules that made the play experience unsatisfying.
I think your terrain skewed the results abit. The vast majority of conflict promoted by Mongoose with the system is urban in nature.
 
Agis said:
Laffe said:
Hey, don't knock Warmaster, best and most realistic game to come out of the Nottingham sweatshops :wink:

True! But do not forget EPIC:Armageddon - my favourite!

Yeah, that one is good too... A friend of mine is trying his hand on adapting it for WW2 8)
 
Paladin said:
But I do agree infantry die fast. But that is one of the "selling points" of the game, fast paced combat. It's less a simulation and more of a game mechanic. True firefights can last hours and hundreds of rounds of ammo.

And I think this is the reason. Sure it might be more realistic if troops would just stick in cover and roll dozens of dices to kill single trooper but a) would that be fun? b) how big games you think you could play in reasonable timeframe there? Fast casualties allow for bigger games so if you find yourself short of troops fast just get bigger armies ;-)
 
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