Fighter Squadrons

[-Daniel-]

But the game isn't reality, so adjustments are needed. So from that perspective it's impossible to come up with a universal ruleset. From a gamers perspective I want rules that make logical sense, are easy to follow, and don't require me to leaf through copious rules. So in that case it makes more sense to group like craft in a squadron. If you have a mixed squadron, the question is why do you have a 12 ship squadron made up of three disparate unit types instead of having three four-ship squadrons made up of like types? As the rules are structured it makes more sense to have the latter than the former.

I do not think we are disagreeing on this point. You claimed there would never be mixed squads and I offered some examples of when they might show up. In most cases, I agree I would just have three or four smaller squads rather than a large squad regardless of mix of weapons. I think this whole thing got started because of a perceived vagueness in the rules as written. In the end, I agree with you, this potential issue will be very rare.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

A squadron will also lose a random fighter every time it suffers a critical hit – there is no need to roll for the effects of the critical hit, simply remove a fighter.

This is a problem that might make it unviable to use squadrons.

Example: Take a simple battleship, 100 kT, M-9, GCr 100, armed with a spinal and 500 triple pulse laser turrets (long range) fighting a bunch of fighters, 35,5 dT, M-9, R-16, Hull 17, MCr 40, armed with a barbette.

The fight starts at Distant range. The Fighters tried to close in to dogfighting range, the battleship tries to keep the range open, both have M-9 but the fighters also have Reaction 16, so the range decreases by 16 every round. We enter VLong on round 4, Long on round 5, and Close and dogfight on round 6. The battleship has two rounds to shoot at the fighters before the dogfight.

Very Long:
Pulse Laser +5[gunner] +3[AdvFireCont] +2[laser] -4[range] -2[evade] = +4,
Damage: 2D+4 with attack +4 gives us an average damage of 0,93 and 13% chance of a crit.
Damage: 500 × 0,93 = 465 damage or 27 fighters killed.
Crit: 500 × 13% = 65 crits => 65 fighters killed.

Long:
Pulse Laser +5[gunner] +3[AdvFireCont] +2[laser] -2[range] -2[evade] = +6,
Damage: 2D+4 with attack +6 gives us an average damage of 1,93 and 35% chance of a crit.
Damage: 500 × 1,93 = 965 damage or 57 fighters killed.
Crit: 500 × 35% = 175 crits => 175 fighters killed.

Totally 27 + 57 = 116 fighters are killed by damage
and 65 + 175 = 240 fighters are killed by crits. Before the dogfight, so before the fighters can shoot back.

Far more fighters are killed by crits than by damage. If we do not organise the fighters into squadrons the crits will not kill a fighter each and the fighters would suffer far less casualties. Problem.

 

[wbnc]

A squadron will also lose a random fighter every time it suffers a critical hit – there is no need to roll for the effects of the critical hit, simply remove a fighter.

This is a problem that might make it unviable to use squadrons.

Example: Take a simple battleship, 100 kT, M-9, GCr 100, armed with a spinal and 500 triple pulse laser turrets (long range) fighting a bunch of fighters, 35,5 dT, M-9, R-16, Hull 17, MCr 40, armed with a barbette.

The fight starts at Distant range. The Fighters tried to close in to dogfighting range, the battleship tries to keep the range open, both have M-9 but the fighters also have Reaction 16, so the range decreases by 16 every round. We enter VLong on round 4, Long on round 5, and Close and dogfight on round 6. The battleship has two rounds to shoot at the fighters before the dogfight.

Very Long:
Pulse Laser +5[gunner] +3[AdvFireCont] +2[laser] -4[range] -2[evade] = +4,
Damage: 2D+4 with attack +4 gives us an average damage of 0,93 and 13% chance of a crit.
Damage: 500 × 0,93 = 465 damage or 27 fighters killed.
Crit: 500 × 13% = 65 crits => 65 fighters killed.

Long:
Pulse Laser +5[gunner] +3[AdvFireCont] +2[laser] -2[range] -2[evade] = +6,
Damage: 2D+4 with attack +6 gives us an average damage of 1,93 and 35% chance of a crit.
Damage: 500 × 1,93 = 965 damage or 57 fighters killed.
Crit: 500 × 35% = 175 crits => 175 fighters killed.

Totally 27 + 57 = 116 fighters are killed by damage
and 65 + 175 = 240 fighters are killed by crits. Before the dogfight, so before the fighters can shoot back.

Far more fighters are killed by crits than by damage. If we do not organise the fighters into squadrons the crits will not kill a fighter each and the fighters would suffer far less casualties. Problem.

A squadron can be created from any number of fighters that are all within Adjacent or Close range with each other (within 10km), are all able to communicate with one another and, of course, are willing to co-operate and be led in a common goal.
Note that individual fighters can join or leave the squadron at any time, though this will force the referee or Travellers to recalculate the capabilities of the squadron as shown below

Nowhere does it say you have to form up a squadron as soon as they launch.

you can move into engagement range out of formation forcing gunners to break up their attacks to target individual fighters, Then form up into squadrons once in engagement range. Disperse for movement, concentrate to engage.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Yes, that would work.

But in a Fighter squadron vs. Fighter squadron dogfight all attacks will be crits (because of the squadron bonus).

It kind of defeats the purpose of the squadron (streamlined combat?) if we have to decide if, and how large, squadrons to use every round...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Let's compare damage output of a squadron of 12 fighters vs. 12 individual fighters. Take a 35 dT fighter with a tachyon barbette (reasonable for TL14-15) and Armour 15. Assume minimal computer running Evade. Let them both fight a generic warship, assume the fighters win the dogfight roll. Assume the warship cannot dodge, since there are too many fighters.


Fighter +5[gunner] +1[aid] +2[dogf] -3[evade] = +5.
Damage: 2D (AP10) at +5 gives average damage 6,0, so 12 fighters do 72,0 damage.

Squadron: +5[gunner] +11[squadron] +1[aid] +2[dogf] -3[evade] = +16.
With 2D +16 -8, max 12, we achieve an average of 11,9 hits.
Each hit do 2D (AP10, No effect) or average 2,3 damage, for a total damage of 27,37.


In this particular case the Squadron does a lot less damage than the individual fighters would.

Fighters have rather weak weapons and are very much helped by adding the Effect to overcome Armour. Since Squadrons may not add Effect they do less damage than the individual fighters if we can achieve a good attack DM, but they do more damage than the individual fighters if we have a low attack DM (e.g. if we lose the dogfight).

Note that squadrons are much more likely to be dodged, since there are a lot less of them, but also much less affected by the dodge.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Let's compare the individual fighters dogfighting a squadron of the same fighters. The individual fighters run Fire Control/3, the Fighter squadron runs Evade/2.

Both sides have the same number of the same fighters, so the dogfighting roll is equal.

Let's start with the case that the Squadron wins the dogfight:
The squadron does a single attack on a single fighter that dodges, the fighters do 12 attack on the squadron that cannot dodge all of them.
Fighter +5[gunner] +3[FireCont] +1[aid] -2[dogf] -2[evade] = +5.
Damage: 2D (AP10) at +5 gives average damage 6,0 and 28% chance of a crit, so 12 fighters do 72,0 damage and 3 crits, killing 72 / 17 + 12 × 28% ≈ 7 fighters in the squadron or 58% of the enemy force.

Squadron: +5[gunner] +11[squadron] +1[aid] +2[dogf] -5[dodge] = +14.
With 2D +14 -8, max 12, we achieve an average of 11,4 hits.
Each hit do 2D (AP10, No effect) or average 2,3 damage, for a total damage of 26,22 on a single fighter, killing it instantly, or 8% of the enemy force.

This was the good case for the squadron, if it loses the dogfight it is much worse.

Conclusion: We cannot use squadrons in a fighter vs. fighter dogfight.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Hmm, a better case for the squadron might be to reserve all Thrust for dodges, thereby intentionally losing the dogfight, but dodging all attacks:

Fighter +5[gunner] +3[FireCont] +1[aid] +2[dogf] -2[evade] -5[dodge] = +4.
Damage: 2D (AP10) at +4 gives average damage 4,98 and 17% chance of a crit, so 12 fighters do 59,76 damage and 2 crits, killing 59,76 / 17 + 12 × 17% ≈ 5,5 fighters in the squadron or 46% of the enemy force.

Squadron: +5[gunner] +11[squadron] +1[aid] -2[dogf] -5[dodge] = +10.
With 2D +10 -8, max 12, we achieve an average of 8,9 hits.
Each hit do 2D (AP10, No effect) or average 2,3 damage, for a total damage of 20,47 on a single fighter, killing it instantly, or 8% of the enemy force.

Ok, that was slightly better for the squadron, but is still slaughtered...

(Edit: spelling...)