Executioner Class Dreadnought

[AnotherDilbert]

I foolishly said:

I don't think there is any great danger of ship sizes spiralling out of control, there is little reason to build main combatants much larger than 100000 dT. Megaton ships are, just as usual, just a monument to the builders folly ...

That is a challenge:

Executioner class Dreadnought.

500 000 dT, J-3, M-9, Armour 15, GCr 472,5.
24DD Meson Spinal, 2500 Ion Barbette.
1000 PD Batteries, 2000 Meson Screens, 2000 Dampers.

TL 15          Hull 400 000                                        472 524,8        Sensor DM:  +6/+10
                             Desired    ∆TL    Rat    #      dTon     Cost      Power    HardP    Crew
Hull                          500000                      500 000             100 000     5000    
Config         Close Structure     4            4                   35 000            
Hull strength  Reinforced          3            3                        
Armour         Bonded Superdense  15           15          60 000   42 000            
Rad Shielding                      1            1                   12 500            
                                        
JumpD          High Technology     3     3      3     1    26 254   59 070    150 000              750
ManœuvreD      Very Advanced       9     2      9     1    36 000   90 000    450 000             1029
PowerP (TL12)  High Technology           3            1    32 000   48 000    685 714              914
    Emergency Power                1                  1     3 200    4 800            
                                        
Fuel, Jump                         3            3     1   150 000                
Fuel, Power                        4          4 w     1     3 200                
Fuel Purification               48 h         48 h     1     3 750      188      3 750        
                                        
Command Bridge                     3                  3       240   11 250            
    Holographic                    1                  1              2 813            
Comp           CORE/100/fib       99     2    100     1                195            
Backup Comp    CORE/90/fib        19     2     90     1                180            
                                        
Sensors        Advanced            9            4     3        15       16          6        
Array          Distributed         9            3     1        30       32            
Signal Proc    Enhanced            9            2     3         6       24          2        
Shallow Pen Suite                  9                  3        30       15          3        
Countermeasure Military            9            2     3        45       84          2        
                                        
Staterooms, Luxury                10                 10       100       15            
Staterooms, High                 100                100       600       80            
Staterooms                      100%         8658  8548    34 192    4 274            
Escape Capsules                    1              17316     8 658      346            
Common Areas                     10%          10%     1     3 489      349            
Low Berths                       500          500     1       250       25         50        
Briefing Room                    100                100       400       50            
Library                          100                100       400      400            
Medical Bay    10% of crew         1                316     1 264      632        316   
Workshop                         100                100       600       90            
Armoury                            1                828       828      207            
Marine Training Facilities       100                100       200       40        200        
Brig                             100                100       400       25            
Cargo                                                         729                
                                        
Spinal    Meson                   12           12     1    72 000   31 200     12 000      720     720

                                     
Ion Barbette  
High Tech (Long Range, Size)    2500     3   TL15  2500    11 250   22 500     25 000     2500    2500

Pulse Laser Turret                                        
Very Advanced (Accurate)         780     2   TL11   780       780    3 705     10 140      780     780
                                        
Point Defence    
Type III, 3D,Advanced (Size)    1000     3         1000    18 000   22 000     30 000     1000    
                                        
Screen    
Meson, Very Advanced (Size)     2000     3         2000    16 000   50 000     60 000             2000
Damper,High Technology (Size)   2000     3         2000    14 000   30 000     20 000             2000

                                        
Hangar         35 dT              10                 10       700      140                          20
Docking Space  35 dT              10                 10       390       98                          20
                                        
                                        
                                        
Software (all)                                                                    183            
                                        
                                        
                                        
                                        
Crew                  15689                                
    Command            1427                                
    Bridge              104                                
        Pilot                   3                            
        Astrogator              1                            
        Sensor & EW           100                            
    Engineer           3693    
        Engineer             2693
        Maintenance          1000
    Service             625    
        Admin                 500
        Medic                 118,6875
        Steward                 5,5
    Gunner             8800    
    Flight               40    
    Troops             1000    


Passengers            
    High                 50    
    Mid                  50

The idea is to match a single Executioner against a BatRon of ~100 000 dT battleships. It will use the ion barbettes to stun a smaller battleship, and then execute it with the spinal mount.

Long Range:
Ion: +5[crew] +3[software] -2[long] -3[evade] = +3, Average damage 8,11 × 10 = 81.
2500 barbettes stuns about 200 000 Power, enough to stun a 100 000 - 150 000 dT battleship.

Spinal: +6[crew] +5[software] -2[long] -3[evade] = +6, hit on 2+ so hit chance is about 100%.
Average damage is 24DD ≈ 24 × 3,5 × 1000 ≈ 84 000, enough to kill a 100 000 - 125 000 dT battleship.

In return it should take relatively little damage, with good screens and dodging. A BatRon (or half) of ~100 000 dT battleships are unlikely to be able to stun it in return, so it can dodge the enemies spinals.


Countermeasure: Harden your defences (Comp, Bridge, M-drive, screens) against ion weapons (should add ~20% to the cost of a battleship).

 

[phavoc]

An interesting idea. A Batron of battleships would normally be 4 (assuming 2 pairs). So the question would be how much damage would your Executioner take per round from 4 battleship-sized spinals, plus the odd missile/beam attack. I believe the only real counter to the ion cannon is, more excess power (certainly not more cowbell, anything but more cowbell!)?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I have always counted a Squadron as 8 or 10 ships, but no matter.

If I take the same ship and scale it down to 101000 dT, I get something like a 6DD meson and a few hundred barbettes for GCr ~90.

Let's take 8 of them to give the Executioner a challenge. The executioner can dodge all spinals.

Spinal: +6[crew] +5[software] -2[long] -3[evade] -5[dodge] = +1, hit on 7+ so hit chance is about 58%.
Average damage: 6DD ≈ 6 × 3,5 × 1000 ≈ 21000.
8 ships fire with 58% chance ≈ 8 × 21000 × 58% ≈ 97440.
Executioner screens soak up 2000 × 2D × Effect ≈ 2000 × 7 × 4 ≈ 56000.
Executioner takes 41440 damage.

Secondary armaments:
Let's say 200 Tachyon barbettes per ship or 1600 barbettes total. Can't dodge 1600 attacks...
Ion: +5[crew] +3[software] -2[long] -3[evade] = +3, Average damage 4,00 × 1600 = 6400.

Executioner takes 41440 + 6400 ≈ 47840 or 12% damage first round, and in return executes a single smaller battleship.


Second round: Seven enemies remains.
Meson damage 7 × 21000 × 58% ≈ 85260. Screens soak up 56000. Damage taken 29260.
Tachyon damage 7 × 200 × 4,00 ≈ 5600.
Total damage taken: 47840 + 29260 + 5600 ≈ 82700 (~21%)


Third round: Six enemies remains.
Meson damage 6 × 21000 × 58% ≈ 73080. Screens soak up 56000. Damage taken 17080.
Tachyon damage 6 × 200 × 4,00 ≈ 4800.
Total damage taken: 82700 + 17080 + 4800 ≈ 104580 (~26%)


Fourth round: Five enemies remains.
Meson damage 5 × 21000 × 58% ≈ 60900. Screens soak up 56000. Damage taken 4900.
Tachyon damage 5 × 200 × 4,00 ≈ 4000.
Total damage taken: 104580 + 4900 + 4000 ≈ 113480 (~28%)


As we can see return fire wanes as the smaller battleships are killed, but the Executioner only takes attritional damage. The executioner would have taken less than 33% damage (easily repairable) while destroying all 8 enemies.


If we had large fleets on both sides some Executioners would be swamped by lots of spinal attacks they could not dodge, and be killed each round.

 

[Condottiere]

Size of BatRon really dependant on the eye of the beholder.

And edition.

 

[-Daniel-]

:lol:

Just had to go and make a "bigger ship" didn't you.

I have to admit this was an interesting exercise to read though. :mrgreen:

 

[phavoc]

Yeah, I guess the number of ships depends on the rule set, but no matter.

Dodge spinals? A 500,000 ton ship? Hrm, I will have to go back and look at the rules. But if that is the case, then there's really no point to have spinals is there? That's a big change from the previous editions, where whichever side had the most spinals one.

Based on your numbers here, maybe all ships would go with Ion weapons? 10 100,000 ton ships, armed with ion weaponry, should be able to return the favor to the Executioner since they have twice the total number of hardpoints - especially if they forgo mounting a spinal.

 

[phavoc]

BTW - thanks for the combat breakdown. Very informative.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Dodge spinals?

Core, p156: Evasive Action.

 

[Condottiere]

Send in the Y-Wings.

 

[phavoc]

I liked flying the B-wing myself. Ah, the days of Lucasarts games. For their day they were pretty damn fun. I can't remember the last time I played a space combat sim on the PC.

 

[-Daniel-]

Dodge spinals?

Core, p156: Evasive Action.

That is some great Ducking and Weaving.

For me, it is moments like this that show why the rules as written clearly are not meant for all ships of any size. TO have a 500,000 ton ship as agile as a fighter just seems wrong on some level regardless of it being within the rules. :mrgreen:

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Doesn't matter if you are flying a fighter or a battleship, you can't dodge an attack you can't see. You can't see a lightspeed attack before it hits you.

The only thing you can do is set up a pattern of evasive manoeuvres and hope for the best. Just why it only works on specified attacks is more difficult to imagine.

 

[-Daniel-]

Doesn't matter if you are flying a fighter or a battleship, you can't dodge an attack you can't see. You can't see a lightspeed attack before it hits you.

The only thing you can do is set up a pattern of evasive manoeuvres and hope for the best. Just why it only works on specified attacks is more difficult to imagine.

Sounds a lot like some of the space battles as described by the Honorverse books. FIre patterns and evasive patterns programmed in then wait hours to see if you die of they die or both or neither.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Sounds a lot like some of the space battles as described by the Honorverse books. FIre patterns and evasive patterns programmed in then wait hours to see if you die of they die or both or neither.

The Honorverse seems pretty well thought through. The numbers (acceleration and hence distances) are bigger, but otherwise local space combat use about the same physics as Traveller.

 

[GamingGlen]

This debate started with the criteria on ship sizes, so it seems to me to have an equal tonnage of smaller ships go up against 1 large ship.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

The third post has the basics of a fight between a 500 000 dT Executioner and ~800 000 dT of smaller battleships.

 

[Condottiere]

Battles tend to be inherently unfair, so you'll never get an exact tonnage match up.

In real life.

But BatRons of semi-megatonne ships tend to assigned one per sector.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

This debate started with the criteria on ship sizes, so it seems to me to have an equal tonnage of smaller ships go up against 1 large ship.

If we fight a single lone Executioner against a few hundred patrol ships from http://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/viewtopic.php?f=89&t=119513, a roughly similar tonnage of the smaller ships would win easily. The Executioner has no secondary armament and it's spinal can't effectively target ships smaller than 5000 dT.

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

True, but a ship of this size would never be flying alone. It would have escorts. The escorts (Cruisers and Destroyers) are there to screen the big ship and keep the riff-raff out. You can't just have small ships and you can't just have big ships.

 

[Condottiere]

You can have Vader.

You can also have an organic aerospace group.