Excel Ship Designer v2024.12.08a

[J. L. Brown]

I, also, am interested in whether (and / or how much of) the expense for staterooms is offset by biosphere.

Also, the effect of biosphere on consumption of 'supply points'.

 

[Arkathan]

74, it doesn't replace the stateroom support.

200,000 per ton/2,000 per month in unpaid life support = 100 months of operation to pay it off.
Assuming 6 months in space per year (more pays it off faster) it takes 16.67 years to pay off the biosphere.
Over a 40 year mortgage, it is paid off more than twice.
Do the math. I did.

 

[AndrewW]

74, it doesn't replace the stateroom support.

200,000 per ton/2,000 per month in unpaid life support = 100 months of operation to pay it off.
Assuming 6 months in space per year (more pays it off faster) it takes 16.67 years to pay off the biosphere.
Over a 40 year mortgage, it is paid off more than twice.
Do the math. I did.

Does that take into account the lost cargo space for the biosphere?

 

[J. L. Brown]

74, it doesn't replace the stateroom support.

200,000 per ton/2,000 per month in unpaid life support = 100 months of operation to pay it off.
Assuming 6 months in space per year (more pays it off faster) it takes 16.67 years to pay off the biosphere.
Over a 40 year mortgage, it is paid off more than twice.
Do the math. I did.

Wait -- I thought each person required [Edit: Corrected by Arkathan, below] 2000 Cr 1000 Cr per month in Life Support, and the Biosphere replaced the needs of two people. If so, that means that Biosphere pays for itself in 100 months. I'm not near my books at the moment, so I will need to check this later.

Also -- I tend to assume that really serious commercial liners try to make 3 jumps per month. That makes 8 months per year towards paying off the biosphere.

 

[Condottiere]

Ye, many moons ago, I sat down, and took a very long look at life support.

The fact that it doesn't make sense, is another issue.

So, it became an issue if centswise it could be leveraged.

The short answer is, it's cheaper to pay for it out of pocket, since you can control the costs to the actual number of humans onboard, at any one time.

If you do install a biosphere, it has to be for other reasons than saving on life support; consider the life support cost savings as incidental, or a by product.

 

[Arkathan]

Does that take into account the lost cargo space for the biosphere?

That depends on if you care about speculative cargo. Since the original statement was that biospheres do not pay for themselves, other things that pay for themselves does not negate that biospheres also pay for themselves, albeit slower than some things.

 

[Arkathan]

Ye, many moons ago, I sat down, and took a very long look at life support.

The fact that it doesn't make sense, is another issue.

So, it became an issue if centswise it could be leveraged.

The short answer is, it's cheaper to pay for it out of pocket, since you can control the costs to the actual number of humans onboard, at any one time.

If you do install a biosphere, it has to be for other reasons than saving on life support; consider the life support cost savings as incidental, or a by product.

A reason like your income is from something other than speculative cargo. Plants in the common area make your passenger approval ratings go up and if reducing the total monthly maintenance/support cost helps you make your mortgage every month, then that is a good thing.
Without ANY other variables for mission parameters, having a biosphere is cheaper than NOT having a biosphere.
Deciding against one means you have a better way of making that money.
In any case, the original premise that a biosphere cannot pay for itself is debunked.

 

[Arkathan]

Wait -- I thought each person required 2000 Cr per month in Life Support, and the Biosphere replaced the needs of two people. If so, that means that Biosphere pays for itself in 50 months. I'm not near my books at the moment, so I will need to check this later.

Also -- I tend to assume that really serious commercial liners try to make 3 jumps per month. That makes 8 months per year towards paying off the biosphere.

1000Cr per stateroom, 1000Cr per person. You save 1000Cr on 2 people with a double stateroom.

 

[Condottiere]

Like I said, life support can't be the primary reason you install it, the life support cost savings should be considered a subsidy.

 

[J. L. Brown]

Like I said, life support can't be the primary reason you install it, the life support cost savings should be considered a subsidy.

The description of Biosphere specifies that it can be used as a leisure area; so each dTon of Biosphere might free up a dTon of 'Common' area for cargo. Of course the 'leisure / common' area requirements are squishy....

 

[Terry Mixon]

The description of Biosphere specifies that it can be used as a leisure area; so each dTon of Biosphere might free up a dTon of 'Common' area for cargo. Of course the 'leisure / common' area requirements are squishy....

Maybe 1/2 a dton or less. Not many people want to live all the time in a greenspace. The rules also don't say it counts off for supplies, though the description says it can provide food. Maybe 1/4 a ton of common area and 1/4 a ton of supplies per ton of biosphere?

 

[Condottiere]

That's valid.

I was (re)designing the Venture class at that time, and if I thought I could leverage the biosphere into minimizing operating costs, It would have been installed.

There are other issues to consider, such as diseases wiping out the crop(s), costs to regenerate it, possible destruction of that part of the spacecraft, the need for a horticulturist (maybe one per thirty five tonnes allocated).

At scale, it could work.

Adventure class size, probably not.

 

[Arkathan]

Like I said, life support can't be the primary reason you install it, the life support cost savings should be considered a subsidy.

But that ISN'T what you said initially. If it were, we would not be having this discussion.
You said:
Monetarily, they don't pay for themselves.

So, make the pay off psychological.

A patently false statement.

 

[Geir]

For the vehicle handbook I am giving the biosphere credit for more comfort points than say common space and for being used as leverage to keep long-term and closed cycle life support costs down. Downside is if you have an environmental incident (depressurization, influx of corrosive gases, mutant aphids, etc.) then you've got to pay to fix or replace it. Oh, and as long as you have a gardener, you can run it without power... though you'd better have a light source unless it's all fungus or cannibalistic oxygen-farting worms... and those might cause the comfort points score, for humans at least, to take a hit.

Again, all based on the idea that an option has to do something for it to be included so you at least know what you're paying for and why. And the biosphere does that now in High Guard, though not to the detail I'd care to see. It's common space RAW that I actually have issue with. I've been bad (or at least not helpful for finding fixes) and lately not reading the new books in great detail until I get a hard copy (PDFs are fantastic for reference, but I just can't enjoy reading them that way) and I happen to be in the life support section of the SOM. Makes me want to specify galley and even washing machine choices for living quarters, but I'm not sure it would be a value add.

 

[Arkathan]

This ship is just for example purposes of the changes discussed above. No effort was made to make it "good" or "efficient."
Didn't like the space available on the lines in the bridge section when all options are included. Too easy to blow out the line on a supership. For now, I'm putting sensor actions next to Sensops. If you don't have any, you have one action. Sensor stations are in the bridge and fuel scoops/purifiers are in Systems.
If you have any opinions on moving things in the summary to make it closer to what we see in Mongoose ships, let me know.

 

[Condottiere]

But that ISN'T what you said initially. If it were, we would not be having this discussion.
You said:
Monetarily, they don't pay for themselves.

So, make the pay off psychological.

A patently false statement.

They don't, without the stars being aligned.

I didn't say that they shouldn't be installed, or that they won't have intangible benefits.

 

[Arkathan]

The new version, which will be posted right after this, will allow prototype starships. So your jump software will work... BUT, deviating from RAW, the prototype cost is applied to the software. Also, you can make a J1 ship at TL 7 (technically) but basic sensors are TL8. Again deviating from RAW, you can get basic sensors at TL 7, but they cost, weigh and draw power as a Commercial Sensor (because I am lazy and didn't want to ponder too long on what 500% of free should be).
This is what such a ship might look like... although I doubt anyone would try to build it.

 

[Arkathan]

NEW VERSION: 2024.12.08

Modified systems so early prototype jump engines can have software.
Added another batch of vehicles from Terry Mixon
Implemented Short Duration Maneuver Drives
Implemented Gel Heat Management Systems - but it's up to you to figure out how much a heat point is.

 

[tytalan]

Okay I found something else. The fuel defaults to 1 ton minimum, if you put in a value less than a ton it rounds up when figuring tonnage used, but in the Small Craft catalog they give the option for small crafts to have fuel tanks less than a ton this really becomes necessary for things like fighters, a cockpit only has 24 hours of life support so more fuel than that doesn’t make sense. Maybe add a option for operational periods of days or quarter days.

Also when designing an drone/robot ships without a bridge it flags you with a warning maybe give you a bridge option of drone that takes no space but removes the flag

 

[tytalan]

What’s the SOL all about I see vehicles and accommodations? Also what the supplies stores and spares about? What book is all of this in?