Eternal Champion Species

[Vagabond]

Like Serpriz being the warrior in Jet and Gold (you have to read 3 or four different series to get that one).

Yes, this revelation makes the meeting involving Serpriz and the Warrior in the Quest for Tanelorn need a little revision

Not really. There's no reason that paradox cannot happen. Mike has
been very adamant that time is not linear in the EC series, so having
someone meet themselves from another timeline/sphere is totally
within the bounds of his writings.

Of course, I'll have to reread it to verify there aren't any specific
references to them not being the same - although it could also very
well be the case that "they" were not aware of being the same
entity, something "they" did not learn until later ...

-V

 

[Fabs]

Of course, I'll have to reread it to verify there aren't any specific
references to them not being the same - although it could also very
well be the case that "they" were not aware of being the same
entity, something "they" did not learn until later ...

It was an amusing aside rather than a critisim, I wouldn't try to work it out.
The simple fact was they were originally meant to be different people when Moorcock was writting in the 70's and then in the 80's he thought it would be a neat twist (and it is) if they were one and the same.
And now Moorcock doesn't like revising his older books as much as he used to, as it shows the development of his writing and ideas ... although you might like to check the more recent (post 1990) versions of the text, see if he has changed it.

 

[Mage]

The ideas about the melniboneans and olab are all cool, but from what I understand of Moorcock's universes that you can use whatever you want from your campaign, as there are probably millions of youn kingdoms in the million spehres, each with anything from a subtle difference to a major divergence. Just goes to show how cool the series of books are.

 

[atgxtg]

Like Serpriz being the warrior in Jet and Gold (you have to read 3 or four different series to get that one).

Yes, this revelation makes the meeting involving Serpriz and the Warrior in the Quest for Tanelorn need a little revision

Need, no. Helped by, maybe.

If we assume one incarnation of each Champion (as opposed to a mutiple Young Kingdom planes each with an Elric, etc.) then there are still some possiblities.

1) One of the other comes from a latter time, and simply keeps his moth shut.

2) One or more forgot due to an effect of meeting oneself (I don;'t think it ever quite happens again).

3) Perhaps they are from differernt cycles in the multiverse. We never really find out what happens after the Corum series when the Lord og Law and Chaos are slain.

4) Maybe all Narhain are named Sepritiz, and each encounter in the series is actually with a different one. I think The Warrior in Jet and Gold gets killed once or twice during the cycle.

5) Perhaps there is more than one warrior in Jet and Gold, much like there is more than one incarnation of the Champion.

Oh, and do we ever find out much more about eh seers of Narhain or the Dharzi from Moorcock? Or the Myrrhyn? Moorcock tells his story while only fleshing out enough side material to give the setting depth. So much is left unanswered that there are infinite answers to almost any question. Even the stuff that we "know" is open to interpretation. Maybe the "Ghost People" Eldren go off to become the Melniboneas, as hinted. Any maybe someone is is guessing and got it wrong.

I would be nice for RPG purposes if Mike would fill in some info, maybe flesh out the cultures in the YK a bit, but I doubt we'll even get the sort of detail and info that we are used to in a RPG setting. It just isn't necessary for an author's viewpoint, and not spelling everything out actually adds a more realistic feel to the background.

 

[atgxtg]

All the above are perrfectly possible and would make a great backdrop for a 'Bright Shadows' campaign where Melnib mystics go in search of their heritage!

For something liek that, I'd probably try to support two conflicting origins, and let the PCs try to work it out with some detective work.

I always wanted to do a Dharzi Wars campaign, and once had a SB group run into a young Emperor Matik (time does flow the same in all spheres, so they got back before the left). The PCs wound up being partially responsbile for the "creation" of the BEasts of Matik. One even "came up with" the invocation that Matik took a fancy to.

Good thing, since thier actions got the human party members reclassified from humans to demons, and thus tolerable companions.

 

[Loz]

Oh, and do we ever find out much more about eh seers of Narhain or the Dharzi from Moorcock? Or the Myrrhyn? Moorcock tells his story while only fleshing out enough side material to give the setting depth. So much is left unanswered that there are infinite answers to almost any question.

The Making of a Sorcerer comics provide a little more flesh on the Myrrhn and a titchy bit on the Seers of Nihrain, but nothing on the Dharzi. I've included some speculative stuff in the Elric Companion (just going through the proof now - looks great!), but the only references have been discussed to death in the Dharzi War thread on this board.

I think I agree that we shouldn't expect any further canonical fleshing out of these tantalising concepts - and I agree that they're unnecessary from the saga's POV. Its often good to have a few, intriguing hints so you have a mystique you can play with, rather than a detailed background that then gets picked over ads infinitum and nauseum.

 

[Vagabond]

I think I agree that we shouldn't expect any further canonical fleshing out of these tantalising concepts - and I agree that they're unnecessary from the saga's POV. Its often good to have a few, intriguing hints so you have a mystique you can play with, rather than a detailed background that then gets picked over ads infinitum and nauseum.

I'll also toss out there that the main reason we see so little about the Dharzi
is because Mike himself felt they were a little too derivative, and thus no longer
cared to write about them. Of course, he he left it open for discussion that
if someone were to present a solid argument, he might revisit the Dharzi.

-V

 

[Facedanser]

Anyone mentioned the denizens of Troos and the Silent folk of the Silent lands???

And their root race from the previous cycle of the Multiverse.(forget the name)

A la the Barrow king (story Kings in Darkness?)

Some was deliniated in the supp. Guide to the Young kingdoms north.


And what about the ancient race that created the red citadel on the Isle of The Purple towns ( I forget the actual name at the mo')

 

[Vagabond]

Anyone mentioned the denizens of Troos and the Silent folk of the Silent lands???

And their root race from the previous cycle of the Multiverse.(forget the name)

A la the Barrow king (story Kings in Darkness?)

Some was deliniated in the supp. Guide to the Young kingdoms north.

That would be the Doomed Folk - Gutheran and his family are twisted
descendants in Troos. The dwellers of the Silent Land are supposed to
be less degenerate descendants. The Doomed Folk that preceded
Melnibone's rise and existed for some time later, no longer exist.

And what about the ancient race that created the red citadel on the Isle of The Purple towns ( I forget the actual name at the mo')

For some reason, I am drawing a blank here.

-V

 

[richard_watts]

And what about the ancient race that created the red citadel on the Isle of The Purple towns ( I forget the actual name at the mo')

For some reason, I am drawing a blank here.

"...the Fort of Evening, where long ago a lonely race came to die," Moorcock writes in the novel Stormbringer (although the reference doesn't appear in earlier editions, having been added later, during one of his many revisions of older material). That's about all he tells us of the race in question, though there are a few more details about the Fort, or Fortress of Evening that are canon...

 

[atgxtg]

richard_watts?

As in Richard Watts? (Move over Batman, theres a new Detective in town!)

As in Richard Watts who wrote some RPG stuff for Chasoium, such as, say Elric!?

 

[Vagabond]

richard_watts?

As in Richard Watts? (Move over Batman, theres a new Detective in town!)

As in Richard Watts who wrote some RPG stuff for Chasoium, such as, say Elric!?

Yes, he's that Richard Watts.

-V

 

[atgxtg]

richard_watts?

As in Richard Watts? (Move over Batman, theres a new Detective in town!)

As in Richard Watts who wrote some RPG stuff for Chasoium, such as, say Elric!?

Yes, he's that Richard Watts.

-V

Never heard of 'em. :wink:

 

[richard_watts]

richard_watts?

As in Richard Watts? (Move over Batman, theres a new Detective in town!)

As in Richard Watts who wrote some RPG stuff for Chasoium, such as, say Elric!?

Damn, my cover is blown. *scuttles back into the shadows*

 

[atgxtg]

Ooh, he's good. You have to have really good sneak skills to hide & sneak like that while scuttling.

 

[havercake lad]

Also, it should be noted that Mabden =/= Human, at least not
exactly. The Mabden as found on Pan Tang are not of the same
stock as the rest of the Humans that existed in the Young Kingdoms.
The Mabden came from another plane, and were more attuned with
Chaos.

-V

To the best of my knowledge MM made no reference to the Pan Tangians as Mabden and/or there arrival from another plane in to
the Young Kingdoms. Mabden is merely the name given to the human
race by the Vadhagh.
The germ of this idea seems to stem from the first edition of Chaosium's 'Stormbringer' rule set. ( Presumably because the Pan Tangians are bearded, Chaos worshippers like some of the savage Mabden encountered in the Corum tales ? )
Later versions of the rules had the Mabden arrive in the aftermath of the Melnibonean war against the Dhazi.
Going on the map used in the 'Elric the Making of a Sorceror' comics the Island that later became Pan Tang, was named Barbarian Island by Melnibones cartographers during the Time of the Old Kingdoms. ( I presume that these inhabitants were barbaric humans some of whom lived through piracy ).
That said there is the possibility that some of the merfolk associated with Pan Tang are still around during Elric's time.
348

 

[havercake lad]

Loz,
Is the race who used originally used Opish* to feature in any of the Elric Mongoose material ?
*' a tounge more ancient than Melnibonen' ~The Fortress of the Pearl.

 

[Loz]

Loz,
Is the race who used originally used Opish* to feature in any of the Elric Mongoose material ?
*' a tounge more ancient than Melnibonen' ~The Fortress of the Pearl.

Opish seems to have become associated with the Dharzi (doesn't everything?) somehow, and the Dharzi are gettng coverage in the Companion.

Taking that MM reference, it would indicate that the Dharzi predate Melnibone by quite some time, and, given that their true origins are shrouded in mystery, not unlikely.

Perhaps they wll get far more attention - perhaps in Cults of the YK - who can say for sure? :wink:

 

[havercake lad]

According to the philosophy of Phum's warrior-priests there are Seven Spheres which are the realms of Chaos, Law, Limbo, Dwarves, Giants, Eternals and Men. ( 'The Roaming Forest' )
Giants certainly seem to have existed in the Western Continent before the re-uniting of the Phoorn and the Merni. ( Elric the Making of a Sorceror I).
Re Young Kingdom Dwarves~ the Pukwadjii fit the bill, though they seem to have been erradicated as a civilization at the start of Melnibone's Imperial age. Definately worth development for GMs running campaigns before the start of the Bright Empire of Melnibone.
( Richard Watts and myself had a few theories on what the fate of the Pukwadjii was by the time of the Elric saga. Perhaps best left out of this forum in case any of these ideas feature in any scenarios either of us run or publish in one form or another. )
One other point re races of the Old Kingdoms.~
Various races seem to have held pacts with specific Elementals , and presumably thrived under their aid, at least until Elric's dream avatar made pacts with all of the four elements and Melnibone.
Thus Myrrhn are linked to Shaarnasaa of the South Wind, the Pukwadji to Grome of the earth, the Nihranians abode is a volcanoe and the home of the Fire Elders and it seems reasonable to assume that the Merfolk were specifically linked to Straasha.

 

[Loz]

I think there's a good case for the theory that the Pukwadji were not wiped out as such, but degenerated into the Kretti who inhabit Sorcerer's Isle. MM writes that they migrated there from the Silent Lands and the description he gives in 'Elric at the End of Time' fits neatly with the descriptions of the Pukwadji in 'Making of a Sorcerer'.

As the giants - something that can be developed if one is preparing a campaign set in the early days of the Mernii.

Some of these ideas are developed a little more (but only a little) in the Elric Companion.