Escorts!

[AnotherDilbert]

Example: If I take the 135 kT, J3, max particle spinal battleship from the first page of the "Cruisers!" thread, and switch the spinal for 50 Large particle bays. With 50 bays I can achieve ~43 crits / round. Three battleships can then almost certainly kill two enemy battleships / attack.

With spinals it took 5 hits, perhaps 10 shots to kill an enemy battleship.

Edit: The battleship uses Adv Fire Control/3, not Fire Control/5, so worse hit chance. 50 bays achieve 32 crits, so two battleships kills one enemy battleship / attack.

 

[wbnc]

Yeah the Crit severity determination needs to be changed. If nothing more than just making it every 5% or 2% of hull = severity level.

That is what I called the Nerfed rule variant. Note that the Davids still disable an equal budget battleship (or two) in a single round.

Actually I think the fact that a battleship can't beat it's own tonnage/budget in cruisers is perfectly fine.It's not a glitch or hole in the system. it reflects real world combat results.


in real engagements that would be the case. the cruisers lighter more numerous guns would shred a battleship reducing it's superstructure, and fire control systems to twisted rubble before they actually managed to sink the Battleship...in effect crit killing the ship by taking out it's bridge , sensors, and computers... destroyers would crit kill it by ripping open it's fuel tanks with torpedoes...once it's combat ineffective the smaller ships take their time and pummel the target into twisted metal.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

in real engagements that would be the case. the cruisers lighter more numerous guns would shred a battleship reducing it's superstructure, and fire control systems to twisted rubble before they actually managed to sink the Battleship...in effect crit killing the ship by taking out it's bridge , sensors, and computers... destroyers would crit kill it by ripping open it's fuel tanks with torpedoes...once it's combat ineffective the smaller ships take their time and pummel the target into twisted metal.

I do not think either WWI or WWII worked that way. The battleships heavier gun had longer ranges and could rip a cruiser apart with a single hit. The British battlecruisers at Jutland or HMS Hood vs KMS Bismarck illustrates the point.

Torpedoes or mines could of course crit...

 

[wbnc]

in real engagements that would be the case. the cruisers lighter more numerous guns would shred a battleship reducing it's superstructure, and fire control systems to twisted rubble before they actually managed to sink the Battleship...in effect crit killing the ship by taking out it's bridge , sensors, and computers... destroyers would crit kill it by ripping open it's fuel tanks with torpedoes...once it's combat ineffective the smaller ships take their time and pummel the target into twisted metal.

I do not think either WWI or WWII worked that way. The battleships heavier gun had longer ranges and could rip a cruiser apart with a single hit. The British battlecruisers at Jutland or HMS Hood vs KMS Bismarck illustrates the point.

Torpedoes or mines could of course crit...

The Hood is the poster child of the crit Kill....it was destroyed by a one in a million critical hit to her powder magazines. The shell literally hit at just the right angel, in just the right place to exploit a design flaw in the ships armor plating. if it had landed anywhere else the damage would have been well within the ships ability to absorb...even the Germans were surprised when she blew up.

The Bismark was a case of a critical hit allowed enemy ships to catch it..then reduce it by massive amounts of salvo fire it could not avoid....It was combat ineffective when they finally scuttled it....if the British had really wanted to they probably could have boarded it...subdued the crew and towed it back to harbor.

The really spectacular deaths of ships at Jutland were cases where ships were destroyed by internal explosions not gunfire. They were killed by their own crews mishandling propellant, and designs that didn't properly contain internal fires and explosions. the gunfire that struck them was totally non lethal...it would have been rated as minor damage under most circumstances.But due to fact blast panels were blocked open, and powder was laying in the open..BOOM!

The British ships that were sunk by actual gunfire were hit multiple times, disabled by hits to their critical systems then sank by massed fire after they were disabled.

The German Battlecruisers were cut to pieces by massed fire from an overwhelming number of ships when they executed the infamous Death Ride to cover the retreating force. They turned and charged into a numerically superior force with a far heavier mass of guns. They were shredded by the sheer volume of fire not hits from any single gun.

 

[phavoc]

Yeah the Crit severity determination needs to be changed. If nothing more than just making it every 5% or 2% of hull = severity level.

That is what I called the Nerfed rule variant. Note that the Davids still disable an equal budget battleship (or two) in a single round.

Actually I think the fact that a battleship can't beat it's own tonnage/budget in cruisers is perfectly fine.It's not a glitch or hole in the system. it reflects real world combat results.


in real engagements that would be the case. the cruisers lighter more numerous guns would shred a battleship reducing it's superstructure, and fire control systems to twisted rubble before they actually managed to sink the Battleship...in effect crit killing the ship by taking out it's bridge , sensors, and computers... destroyers would crit kill it by ripping open it's fuel tanks with torpedoes...once it's combat ineffective the smaller ships take their time and pummel the target into twisted metal.

Not so much really. The concept of guns and armor and how best to utilize them hearkens back to the day of Mahan (and earlier). The exception to this discussion is torpedoes - the bane of any naval ship that couldn't afford triple-bottom keels and extensive anti-torpedo defenses and underwater bulges.

In a battle between say our cruisers and one battleship (excluding torps), the battleship is going to come out as the victor nearly every time. Why? Because the typical cruiser is (was) armed with 8" cannon. It's deck armor was designed to withstand 8" guns. It was designed to fight and survive against similarly equipped ships, and to kill those smaller than it. In a battle with a battleship it is going to lose. The question is how quickly it will lose. Gun ranges for 8" and 15" are roughly the same, but keep in mind that most cruisers have very little side-armor whereas most battleships did. A near-miss from a 15" can cause significant damage but a battleship could potentially shrug off an 8" hit. Much of this has to do with the specific class and armor infrastructure for the ship in question.

Cruisers didn't have the tonnage to have extensive armor everywhere, so they had to make certain choices, like every ship does. Couple this limitation to the fact that a 15"/16"18" shell that is designed to damage far more armored ships striking a lesser target, well, you can connect the dots yourself I think.

This is a common naval concept, in both design and deployment, that every navy has had to deal with since the advent of the iron-hulls. Even before then the older wooden ships would prevail based upon sheer firepower, but also the size of the their cannons. Frigates sought to avoid fights with ships-of-the-line if at all possible as they weren't designed for that sort of combat or enemy. That concept remained true through the big-gun era. But today, in the era of missiles, you can have ploddy patrol boats equipped with hyper-sonic anti-ship missiles that are attacking unarmored targets. It's simply not the same.

Traveller, in my view, has always harkened back to the WW1/WW2 era of big guns & armored warships for warships, and further back to the age of sail for adventure-claass vessels because everyone runs around armed to take on the scourges of the spaceways.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

The German Battlecruisers were cut to pieces by massed fire from an overwhelming number of ships when they executed the infamous Death Ride to cover the retreating force. They turned and charged into a numerically superior force with a far heavier mass of guns. They were shredded by the sheer volume of fire not hits from any single gun.

OK, I agree the British BC were a bad example.
The German BCs at Jutland were damaged by overwhelming fire from battleships, not cruisers.

I took a quick look at Wikipedias (yes, I'm that ignorant...) lists of sunk battleships and couldn't find any sunk by cruisers. Plenty of battleships were killed by battleships, torpedoes, bombs, and mines but no cruisers.

The fate of HMS Black Prince at Jutland suggests that cruisers had no business tangling with battleships.

 

[wbnc]

The German Battlecruisers were cut to pieces by massed fire from an overwhelming number of ships when they executed the infamous Death Ride to cover the retreating force. They turned and charged into a numerically superior force with a far heavier mass of guns. They were shredded by the sheer volume of fire not hits from any single gun.

OK, I agree the British BC were a bad example.
The German BCs at Jutland were damaged by overwhelming fire from battleships, not cruisers.

I took a quick look at Wikipedias (yes, I'm that ignorant...) lists of sunk battleships and couldn't find any sunk by cruisers. Plenty of battleships were killed by battleships, torpedoes, bombs, and mines but no cruisers.

The fate of HMS Black Prince at Jutland suggests that cruisers had no business tangling with battleships.

Well there is a reason no cruisers have sunk battleships...No battleship commander would never intentionally enter combat with a force of cruisers, and if they could avoid it they didn't go anywhere without a significant escort. Mostly to avoid being torpedoed by destroyers/MTBs or subs. when in a battle group cruisers focus on cruiser and smaller class ships rather than risk the attention of a battleship.

The Black Prince it seems isn't an example of Cruisers against battleships...but a case of a single ship wandering into the sights of multiple ships including more than one battleship. It tried to snipe a few rounds and then run..unfortunately it ran into gunsights of SEVERAL other ships which chewed it apart.


I may have gotten lost somewhere between what I was trying to point out,and what I said.... I was replying specifically to

I do not think either WWI or WWII worked that way. The battleships heavier gun had longer ranges and could rip a cruiser apart with a single hit.

My point was that traditionally ships are usually put out of action by multiple hits, and multiple vessels,scoring critical hits..... rather than a single hit from even the biggest guns available. Usually they loose engine power, to a critical hit. When they become immobilized, or otherwise damaged to the point they cant evade enemy fire. Then once that have been disable they are destroyed by sustained bombardment.

 

[Condottiere]

The British armoured cruisers with capital primary guns suffered from a design fault and probably overstuffing and unsafe storage of ammunition at Jutland, plus an over aggressive doctrine.

Hood was a twenty year old plus design intermediate fast battleship, where a lucky early shot hit a critical area.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I have a bit of a problem finding a niche destroyer sized ships.

2000 dT is a solid size, you are immune to crits from turrets, bays are less likely to hit. You can mount large bays if you stretch.

25000 dT you get more hull points and you can start to use spinals.

In between I do not see a compelling case.

Under 2000 dT you are vulnerable to turret crits, and all those laser turrets are excellent at scoring crits...

 

[wbnc]

I have a bit of a problem finding a niche destroyer sized ships.

2000 dT is a solid size, you are immune to crits from turrets, bays are less likely to hit. You can mount large bays if you stretch.

25000 dT you get more hull points and you can start to use spinals.

In between I do not see a compelling case.

Under 2000 dT you are vulnerable to turret crits, and all those laser turrets are excellent at scoring crits...

This is all based on a bit of quick mental math..I'd have to do a few build tests to confirm it.

I think the real difference between a 2K frigate frigate and a 10k destroyer would be the addition of Screens, and such things as Armored bulkheads, PD systems it has the extra tonnage to allow for those additions without having to decide between those items and weapons bays.Also it should have enough space to fit two large bays rather than having to shoehorn in one....Against cruisers they would fold fairly quickly since they can not mass the armor and defenses needed to protect from Large bays, and Spinals.assuming a one on one fight. they would still have a good chance if they can numerically out match a cruiser.

Against even against two frigates they can seriously damage or destroy the opposition by splitting their bay fire on the to targets. Sub 2 k ship would be easier since at best they would be facing medium bay armed ships. while maintaining enough turret weaponry to provide effective point defense fire. at 12k you are having to chose between turrets for PD and bays for offensive punch. at 10 you can have a mix of both large bays, and defensive guns. a large bay is 20% of your hardpoints on a 2k ship seriously cutting into defensive turrets. So a destroyer with 2 large bays can still field a far larger number of turrets/Barbettes for PD, and fighter suppression.

Also at 10k tons the ships advanced software and core computers take up less of the total cost by percentage then at 1-2k so you can justify spending the big bucks on more software options.

 

[Chas]

I'd also like to see how the 10K ship does as a PD escort. Need to rework the T2 and see how that looks.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I think the real difference between a 2K frigate frigate and a 10k destroyer would be the addition of Screens, and such things as Armored bulkheads, PD systems it has the extra tonnage to allow for those additions without having to decide between those items and weapons bays.Also it should have enough space to fit two large bays rather than having to shoehorn in one....

More defences per MCr means less guns per MCr. The frigates can mix strike frigates and escort frigates to get the same mix of offensive and defensive weaponry.

Against cruisers they would fold fairly quickly since they can not mass the armor and defenses needed to protect from Large bays, and Spinals.assuming a one on one fight. they would still have a good chance if they can numerically out match a cruiser.

All warships from fighters up have the same armour, i.e. max. Bigger ships are much more likely to be hit by bays and spinal, so more vulnerable. Small ships means more ships means more dodges, so less vulnerable.

Against even against two frigates they can seriously damage or destroy the opposition by splitting their bay fire on the to targets. Sub 2 k ship would be easier since at best they would be facing medium bay armed ships. while maintaining enough turret weaponry to provide effective point defense fire. at 12k you are having to chose between turrets for PD and bays for offensive punch. at 10 you can have a mix of both large bays, and defensive guns. a large bay is 20% of your hardpoints on a 2k ship seriously cutting into defensive turrets. So a destroyer with 2 large bays can still field a far larger number of turrets/Barbettes for PD, and fighter suppression.

You wouldn't want to split your fire, but concentrate it to kill opponents as fast as possible. Dead foes don't shoot back. Warships cost roughly the same per dT, so a 10 kT destroyer would be expected to fight, say, four 2 kT frigates. The frigates would have 15% chance per round of crit-killing the destroyer, but be more or less immune themselves. Hull point attrition takes longer, except with missiles.

Also at 10k tons the ships advanced software and core computers take up less of the total cost by percentage then at 1-2k so you can justify spending the big bucks on more software options.

Quite, but single purpose frigates need less software, so smaller computers. If you carry many guns you have to rely on Advanced Fire Control/3, +3 to hit, if you only have one or two guns you can use Fire Control/5, so +5 to hit.

I'm still not convinced that 5 - 10 kT destroyers are competitive, but show me a build that can defeat the frigates in a even budget fight and I will listen...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I'd also like to see how the 10K ship does as a PD escort. Need to rework the T2 and see how that looks.

That might be a niche for the destroyer. I do not think the "Sköld"-class escort frigate is very cost effective...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

The "David" class seems to have been a little too cheap, I have tried to shoehorn in some defences..

"Abinadab" class Strike Frigate, 2000 dT, Crew: 47, MCr 1325 in bulk
J-3, 9G, Armour 15, partial streamlining and fuel purification for wilderness refuelling.
Drop tank collar included for occasional rift passing. Cramped crew quarters, short logistical endurance.
Armament: Large "Crit fisher" Particle bay (Accurate, High Yield).
Defences: Armour 15, 10 triple Pule Laser (Accurate), one 90 dT module (PD, Damper, Missiles, or Fighter bay).

TL 15               HullP 880                   1 470     
                         Desired  Rat  #  dTonn  Cost  Power  Hardp  Crew
Hull                                       2000          400     20  
Config  Close Structure      4     4              116      
Hull strength  Standard      2     2            
Armour  Bonded Superdense   20    15        240   139      
Rad Shielding                1     1               50      
                  
JumpD  HiTech:3*Size         3     3   1    109   244    780           3
ManœuvreD  VAdv,2*RedSize    9     9   1    144   360   1800           4
PowerP  TL12,3*RedSize                 1    128   192   2739           4
                  
Drop Tank Collar             3     3   1      2     1      
Fuel, Jump                   3     3   1    600        
Fuel, Power                  4     4   1     13        
Fuel Purification         72 h  72 h   1     10     1      
                  
Small Bridge                 1         1     40     5      
    Holographic              1         1            1      
Comp         CORE/70        14    70   1           80      
Backup Comp  m/15 fib        3    15   1            3      
Evade/3            25                               3      
FireControl/5      25                              10      
Point Defence/2    15                              12      
                  
Sensors  Advanced            9     4   1      5     5      6    
Array  None                
Extension Net                  
Signal Processing  Enhanced  9     2   1      2     8      2    
Countermeasures  Suite       1     1   1      2     4      1    
                  
Staterooms                100%    20  20     96    12      
Common Areas                0%        
Armoury                      1         2      2     1      
Low Berths                   2         2      1     0      1    
Cargo                                         2        
                  
90 dT Module                 1         1     90          225      5  
                  
Large Bay                  
Particle   HiTech:Acc,HYield 1  TL14   1    500   180    200      5      4
   
PulseLaser VAdv: Accurate   10  TL11  10     10    48    130      10    10   
                  
                  
                  
                  
                  
                  
Module PD  PD Battery, Type III        5    90    110    150      5  
                                            90    110    150      5  
                  

Module ND  Nuclear Damper              8    56    120    160             8
           Pulse Laser turret (Acc)    5     5     24     65      5      5
           Stateroom                   7    28      3,5      
                                            89    147,5  265      5  


Module Missile  Medium bay   24        1    70     38     10      1      2
                Barbette      5        1     3,5    6             1      1
                Turret        3        3     2,1   13,2    3      3      3
                Stateroom              3    12      1,5      
                Missiles     38      421     2,22 189,45      
                                            90     58,7   13      5  

Fighter bay     35.5 dT docking space  2    78,1   19,5                  6
                Stateroom              3    12,0    1,5      
                                            90,1   21,0    


Fighter /       35.5 dT docking space  1    39,1    9,8                 18
Marine bay      5 dT docking space     1     5,5    1,4      
                Stateroom              9    36,0    5,5   
                Cargo                        9,4
                                            90     15,6                  
                                    
                  
                  
Crew                47              
  Command            5              
  Bridge             8              
      Pilot                3            
      Astrogator           1            
      Sensor & EW          4              
  Engineer          15              
      Engineer            11            
      Maintenance          4            
  Service            3              
      Admin                2
      Medic                0,25
      Steward              0
  Gunner            16  
  Flight    
  Troops             0

 

[AnotherDilbert]

And at TL 12:

"Isai" class Strike Frigate, 2000 dT, Crew: 41, MCr 890 in bulk
J-2, 7G, Armour 12, partial streamlining and fuel purification for wilderness refuelling.
Drop tank collar included for occasional rift passing. Cramped crew quarters.
Armament: Large "Crit fisher" Particle bay (Size).
Defences: Armour 12, 5 triple Pulse Laser (Accurate), two 90 dT module (Damper, Missiles, or Fighter bay).

TL 12                  HullP 880                  988     
                         Desired  Rat  #  dTonn  Cost  Power  Hardp  Crew
Hull                                       2000          400    20  
Config  Close Structure      4     4              120      
Hull strength  Standard      2     2            
    Armour  Crystaliron     20    12        300    72      
    Rad Shielding            1     1               50      
                  
JumpD  Budget:EneIneff       2     2   1    105   118    520           3
ManœuvreD  Budget:EneIneff   9     7   1    140   210   1750           4
PowerP  TL8,3*RedSize                  1    195   147   2792           6
                  
Drop Tank Collar             2     2   1      2     1      
Fuel, Jump                   2     2   1    400        
Fuel, Power                  4     4   1     20        
Fuel Purification         24 h  24 h   1     20     1      
                  
Bridge                       1         1     60    10      
    Holographic              1         1            3      
Comp         CORE/50        10    50   1           60      
Backup Comp  m/5 bis fib     1     5   1            0      
Evade/2            15                               2      
FireControl/4      20                               8      
Point Defence/1    12                               8      
Launch Control/2   10                
                  
Sensors  Improved            9     3   1      3     4      4    
Signal Processing  Improved  9     1   1      1     4      1    
Countermeasures  Suite       1     1   1      2     4      1    
                  
Staterooms                100%    23  23     92    12      
Medical Bay  10% of crew     1         1      4     2  
Workshop                     1         1      6     1  
Armoury                      1         2      2     1  
Low Berths                   2         2      1     0      1
Cargo                                        15        
                  
90 dT Module                 2         2    180          370    
                  
Large Bay                  
Particle  Advanced           1  TL12   1    450   132    200     5     4
Turret                  
Pulse Laser  Very Advanced   5  TL11   5      5    24     65     5     5
                  
                
  

                  
                  

Module ND  Nuclear Damper              6     60    60    120           8
           Pulse Laser turret (Acc)    5      5    24     65     5     5
           Stateroom                   7     28     3,5      
                                             89    87    185     5  


Module Missile  Medium bay   24        1     70    38     10     1     2
                Barbette      5        1      3,5   6            1     1
                Turret        3        3      2,1  13,2    3     3     3
                Stateroom              3     12     1,5      
                Missiles     38      421      2   189,45      
                                             90    58,7   13     5  
                  
                  
Fighter bay     35.5 dT docking space  2     78,1  19,5                6
                Stateroom              3     12,0   1,5      
                                             90,1  21,0   


Boat bay        35.5 dT docking space  1     39,1   9,8               10
                5 dT docking space     1      5,5   1,4      
                PulseLaser turret(Acc) 5      5    24     65     5     5
                Stateroom              8     32,0   4,0      
                Cargo                         8,4        
                                             90,0  39,1   65     5  



                  
                  
Crew              42              
  Command          4              
  Bridge           8              
      Pilot              3            
      Astrogator         1            
      Sensor & EW        4              
  Engineer        17              
      Engineer          13            
      Maintenance        4            
  Service          3              
      Admin              2            
      Medic              0,308333333
      Steward            0
  Gunner          10  
  Flight    
  Troops           0

Still works, had to go down to J-2.