Epemitreus and the Cult of Mitras

[Nyarlathotep]

Could anyone with a copy of Faith and Fervour tell me if the Cult of Mitras outlines a section for Epemitreus the Sage?

Axerules had pointed out a rather significant passage in The Phoenix on the Sword,

"In Mitra's name, lord king, be silent!" It was the high-priest of
Mitra who cried out, and his countenance was ashen.....

My lord, this is a matter beyond human understanding. Only the inner
circle of the priestcraft know of the black stone corridor carved in
the black heart of Mount Golamira, by unknown hands, or of the
phoenix-guarded tomb where Epemitreus was laid to rest fifteen hundred
years ago. And since that time no living man has entered it, for his
chosen priests, after placing the Sage in the crypt, blocked up the
outer entrance of the corridor so that no man could find it, and today
not even the high-priests know where it is. Only by word of mouth,
handed down by the high-priests to the chosen few, and jealously
guarded, does the inner circle of Mitra's acolytes know of the
resting-place of Epemitreus in the black heart of Golamira.

The high priest goes so far as to say that "It is one of the Mysteries, on which Mitra's cult stands."

Given these statements, and those made by the Sage himself during his encounter with our favorite Cimmerian - i figure he must play some incredibly important role, at least to the Mitrans and the safety of Aquilonia?

Anyone care to share? :wink:

 

[VincentDarlage]

I consider it part of the Seventh Mystery, but I don't explicitely say so. My personal opinion is that Epimetrius is Mitra (check out his name: epi~ is a prefix meaning something along the lines of "the coming of" or "toward" or "near").

Anyway, even if he is just a really cool prophet, Epimetrius didn't make the cut. Consider that part of the Seventh Mystery.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

I consider it part of the Seventh Mystery, but I don't explicitely say so. My personal opinion is that Epimetrius is Mitra (check out his name: epi~ is a prefix meaning something along the lines of "the coming of" or "toward" or "near").

:shock: You know Vincent, you just blew my mind especially when one considers REH's words..

When the world was young and men were weak, and the fiends of the night walked free, I strove with Set by fire and steel and the juice of the upas-tree; Now that I sleep in the mount's black heart, and the ages take their toll, Forget ye him who fought with the Snake to save the human soul?

I always interpreted that to be flowery and figurative. That little spin you just gave us puts the passage into a whole entirely different light....

:twisted:

 

[Valgrim Bragisson]

So Mitra is a deified version of Epimitrius? Intresting twist! Just like Bori, starting out as a mortal cheiftain. I like it.
MP

 

[kintire]

I consider it part of the Seventh Mystery, but I don't explicitely say so. My personal opinion is that Epimetrius is Mitra

Its an interesting possibility! I must admit, I'm not entirely convinced. Our best account of Mitra worship is in Black Colossus, and Howard seems to be trying to draw a distinction between Mitra and other deities. He isn't considered to exist in that statues, or to have a physical appearance; he is omnipresent.

This is but the emblem of the god. None pretends to know what Mitra looks like. This but represents him in idealized human form, as near perfection as the human mind can conceive. He does not inhabit this cold stone, as your priests tell you Ishtar does. He is everywhere--above us, and about us, and he dreams betimes in the high places among the stars

That doesn't seem to chime well with a deified human.

Mind you, I'll go some way with that idea: I strongly suspect that Epimetreus is Mitra's active presence in the world. The mysterious voice that speaks to Yasmina in the shrine and gives the (uncannily accurate) prophecy uses a very similar style

"Speak not, my daughter, for I know your need," came the intonations like deep musical waves beating rhythmically along a golden beach. "In one manner may you save your kingdom, and saving it, save all the world from the fangs of the serpent which has crawled up out of the darkness of the ages. Go forth upon the streets alone, and place your kingdom in the hands of the first man you meet there."

It is not against men I must shield you. There are dark worlds barely guessed by man, wherein formless monsters stalk - fiends which may be drawn from the Outer Voids to take material shape and rend and devour at the bidding of evil magicians. There is a serpent in your house, oh king - an adder in your kingdom, come up from Stygia, with the dark wisdom of the shadows in his murky soul.

I strongly suspect that Yasmina's voice is Epimetreus.

When the world was young and men were weak, and the fiends of the night walked free, I strove with Set by fire and steel and the juice of the upas-tree; Now that I sleep in the mount's black heart, and the ages take their toll, Forget ye him who fought with the Snake to save the human soul?


I always interpreted that to be flowery and figurative

Oh, I didn't. I think Epimetreus makes it quite clear:

Ages ago Set coiled about the world like a python about its prey. All my life, which was as the lives of three common men, I fought him. I drove him into the shadows of the mysterious south, but in dark Stygia men still worship him who to us is the arch-demon. As I fought Set, I fight his worshippers and his votaries and his acolytes. Hold out your sword."

He clearly distinguishes Set from his cults. I've always thought that when he says he fought Set, he isn't speaking in riddles...

 

[VincentDarlage]

Its an interesting possibility! I must admit, I'm not entirely convinced.

Neither am I, which is why I did not advance the theory in the book (although in hindsight, I should have possibly mentioned the possibility). I didn't see Epimetrius as a deified human, but as a manifestation that humans could comprehend. I don't know. He could just be a really awesome prophet. I couldn't decide by the time the deadline for the book came, so...

Anyway, whatever your choice is for "The Truth About Mitra & Epimetrius", it is probably best considered part of the Seventh Mystery. And, until you have a PC who achieves that Mystery, you probably won't have to worry about it much.

 

[Baduin]

One point - Epimitreus is clearly derived from Mitra, not other way round. So - Mitra was first.

 

[Axerules]

For me, Epimetrius is one of the "Saints of heaven" (the Poitanian who recognized Conan in Hour of the Dragon used these words), a member of Mitras heavenly host. Remember the words of the nobles:

Hark how he names Epemitreus, dead for fifteen hundred years!

Conan and the high-priest said exactly the same: 1500 years. It seems to be something well-known for those who live in Aquilonia and are educated: Epemitreus is an historical figure for them. The high-priest didn't give a hint that Epemitreus could be someting else than a Saint/prophet/member of Mitras heavenly host.

Also in Phoenix on the Sword :

Ages ago Set coiled about the world like a python about its prey. All my life, which was as the lives of three common men, I fought him. I drove him into the shadows of the mysterious south, but in dark Stygia men still worship him who to us is the arch-demon. As I fought Set, I fight his worshippers and his votaries and his acolytes. Hold out your sword.

IMO Epemitreus can't be Mitra. "Mitra's presence in the world", why not.

 

[Axerules]

After reading again a few chapters from The Hour of the Dragon, I realized that Mitra was worshipped BEFORE the fall of Acheron.

In THotD, chapter I. Xaltotun was restored to life by Orastes thanks to the Heart of Ahriman a few minutes ago :

"...I have been in a far land, across misty voids and gulfs and unlit oceans. What is the year ?"
Orastes answered him. "It is the waning of the Year of the Lion, three thousands years after the fall of Acheron."
"Three thousand years !" murmured the other . "So long ? Who are you ?"
"I am Orastes, once a priest of Mitra."

A few lines later, Xaltotun asked this question to Orastes :

"You must be deep in the arts yourself, Orastes, to have been able to restore my life. How is it that a priest of Mitra knows of the Heart of Ahriman, and the incantations of Skelos ?"
"I am no longer a priest of Mitra,"answered Orastes. "I was cast from my order because of my delving in black magic."

Xaltotun didn't ask "Who is Mitra ?". He seems to be aware that priests of Mitra are forbidden to delve into black magic. How could he know that, if Mitras worship was unknown during his lifetime ?
Mitra was perhaps not the main god of the Hyborians 3000 years before Conan's time. Xaltotun is enough knowledgeable to be aware of small cults. Perhaps Bori had more followers. But Epemitreus died 1500 after the fall of Acheron. So, clearly, the "deifed chieftain" theory doesn't work.

Mitra was first. We don't know exactly since how many time his cult exist before the end of Acheron. Epemitreus came at least 1500 years later.

 

[Darkstorm]

I'm going to play devil's advocate, here.

Xaltotun didn't need to ask "Who is Mitra?". Orastes identified himself as a former priest of Mitra. Even if he had never heard of Mitra, Xaltotun would have realized that Orastes referred to a unknown "modern" god.

Xaltotun's line could easily be read as " How is it that a Morman minister knows about the mysteries of Zoarasterism and the incantations of the Necromonicon?" He isn't required to know who Mitra is as the quote is basically asking how a "modern" priest knows specific details of archaic religions.

The assertion that Xaltotun was already familiar with archaic priest of Mitra and is aware that they are forbidden to delve into black magic doesn't necessarily track. Orastes had already identified himself as a former priest of Mitra; Xaltotun could really just be connecting the dots; contrasting Oraste's status as a former priest to his skill in the dark arts. After all, his next question to Orastes can be taken as an inquiry to confirm the connection.

I am not, however, stating that you are wrong in your take on the exchange. It can certainly be taken in that context. I'm just pointing out that your assertion that Mitra existed during the age of Acheron needs to be taken with a grain of salt. :wink:

 

[Axerules]

I don't agree with you, Mr Rippke.

Xaltotun's line could easily be read as " How is it that a Morman minister knows about the mysteries of Zoarasterism and the incantations of the Necromonicon?" He isn't required to know who Mitra is as the quote is basically asking how a "modern" priest knows specific details of archaic religions.

IMO the knowledge of (some) uses of the Heart are not the "specific details" of an archaic religion. Several characters were able to unlock different powers of the Heart, including Orastes, Thutothmes... But also the four exiled Khitans, who were not priests of Set and who planned to use the Heart against their enemies.

Xaltotun could really just be connecting the dots; contrasting Oraste's status as a former priest to his skill in the dark arts. After all, his next question to Orastes can be taken as an inquiry to confirm the connection.

Why would Xaltotun assume that a priest of an unknown "modern" god could not be "deep into the arts" ?

It seems to me that a lot of priests ARE able (if not EXPECTED) to be "skilled in the dark arts" in the Hyborian Age. From Tower of the Elephant, we know that a "priest" can delve into sorcery : Yara was a priest and a sorcerer. Are the priests of Set forbidden to delve into black magic ? Or the priests of Hanuman ?

And, if you look at Xaltotun's former enemies, were the ancestors of the Aquilonians/Nemedians/Argosseans not knowledgeable into the use of the Heart of Ahriman ? The "feathered shaman of the barbarians" who overthrew Acheron was able to defeat all his "mighty sorcery" with it. Why would Xaltotun assume that this knowledge was lost by their progeny ?

BTW, outside the Conan stories, in the Bran Mak Morn yarns, Gonar is called a "priest" as well as a "wizard" by REH.

IMO Xaltotun can't be "contrasting Oraste's status as a former priest to his skill in the dark arts" without being aware of the "specific" beliefs of the Mitrans.

 

[Darkstorm]

I don't agree with you, Mr Rippke.

Xaltotun's line could easily be read as " How is it that a Morman minister knows about the mysteries of Zoarasterism and the incantations of the Necromonicon?" He isn't required to know who Mitra is as the quote is basically asking how a "modern" priest knows specific details of archaic religions.

IMO the knowledge of (some) uses of the Heart are not the "specific details" of an archaic religion. Several characters were able to unlock different powers of the Heart, including Orastes, Thutothmes... But also the four exiled Khitans, who were not priests of Set and who planned to use the Heart against their enemies.

Actually, the question Xaltotun poses to Orastes DOES contain "specific details" about archaic rituals. He knows that the resurrection ability of the Heart can be accessed by performing a certain incantation described in the writing of Skelos. His query to Orastes confirms this.
Your assertion that several characters were able to unlock different powers of the Heart is a bit disingenuous. The full range of the Heart's powers was unknown to Xaltotun in his day. Orastes knew nothing more than how to resurrect Xaltotun. Thuthomes didn't know anything about the Heart's specific abilities, either. He was going to perform the resurrection ritual to query the long-dead Thothmekri about them. The four Khitians know nothing concrete about the Heart, although they have heard of it. Howard doesn't explain how they will accomplish what Xaltotun could not, although it could really be as easy as asking the resurrected Thothmekri.

Xaltotun could really just be connecting the dots; contrasting Oraste's status as a former priest to his skill in the dark arts. After all, his next question to Orastes can be taken as an inquiry to confirm the connection.

Why would Xaltotun assume that a priest of an unknown "modern" god could not be "deep into the arts" ?

It's not as simple as that. Xaltotun is impressed that the priest of an unknown modern god knows about a ritual that was written down over THREE THOUSAND years ago. Do you imagine the priest of whatever religion that you worship would be familiar with actual Druidic rituals? Xaltotun has to connect the dots because nobody WOULD automaticallly assume that rituals from three millenia ago would still be around and accessable.

It seems to me that a lot of priests ARE able (if not EXPECTED) to be "skilled in the dark arts" in the Hyborian Age. From Tower of the Elephant, we know that a "priest" can delve into sorcery : Yara was a priest and a sorcerer. Are the priests of Set forbidden to delve into black magic ? Or the priests of Hanuman ?

You're skewing the argument. Of course Set"s priests delve into the black arts. We don't know enough about Hanuman's to really make an accurate assessment. The question is whether the priests of "good aligned" gods would be allowed to delve in the dark arts. Mitra definitely forbids it. Ishtar probably does as well. There are most likely others.
Priests, being able to read and write, would have better access to forbidden materials than the average person in the Hyborian Age. It's not surprising that so many make the leap from priests (service to others) to sorcerers (service to self). It isn't inclusive of all priests, though.

And, if you look at Xaltotun's former enemies, were the ancestors of the Aquilonians/Nemedians/Argosseans not knowledgeable into the use of the Heart of Ahriman ? The "feathered shaman of the barbarians" who overthrew Acheron was able to defeat all his "mighty sorcery" with it. Why would Xaltotun assume that this knowledge was lost by their progeny ?

Because THREE THOUSAND YEARS have passed! Western civilization has evolved from the Greeks and Celts. How many people can still read Homer's writing in the original Hellenic. The magical rituals of the Celtic Druids are completely lost to us. Do we know that the Hyborian barbarians had even developed the written word by the time they destroyed Acheron? Specific knowledge (especially hidden, specialized knowledge) can be lost in as little as a couple of generations. It is completely within the realms of probability that the knowledge was lost over the intervening millenia.

BTW, outside the Conan stories, in the Bran Mak Morn yarns, Gonar is called a "priest" as well as a "wizard" by REH.
IMO Xaltotun can't be "contrasting Oraste's status as a former priest to his skill in the dark arts" without being aware of the "specific" beliefs of the Mitrans.

Xaltotun can easily connect Orastes status as a former priest to his delving in the dark arts. The priest of an "evil" god wouldn't have any reason to be a former priest. He only needs to be the priest of a God that forbides sorcery to make the transition to ex-priest. Xaltotun doesn't have to be aware of Mitra at all to make the connection.

Good debate, though... :wink:

 

[kintire]

Because THREE THOUSAND YEARS have passed! Western civilization has evolved from the Greeks and Celts. How many people can still read Homer's writing in the original Hellenic

Anyone who has graduated in Classics. Homer's Greek is perfectly comprehensible today.

Your argument that Xaltotun is concerned about how much time has passed is interesting, but unconvincing. If it was the time that was the issue, he would say so. "How is it that a priest remebers so ancient a ritual?" or "How is it that knowledge of the Heart has survived these countless years?" but he doesn't. His line is "How is it that a priest of Mitra knows of the Heart of Ahriman, and the incantations of Skelos?" It definitely seems to be the Priest of Mitra quality that causes the surprise. The time isn't even mentioned.

I must admit, I have always assumed that we have here one of Howard's continuity errors, and that the wielder of the Heart was Epimetreus. Epimetreus seems to be very much the man credited with the defeat of Set, and his comments about his life fighting Set who ruled the world, driving him into the south and saving humanity from slavery seem a poor fit for the world of 1500 years ago when Hyborian kingdoms dominated the West, but extremely well with the period of the fall of Acheron.

 

[Darkstorm]

Because THREE THOUSAND YEARS have passed! Western civilization has evolved from the Greeks and Celts. How many people can still read Homer's writing in the original Hellenic

Anyone who has graduated in Classics. Homer's Greek is perfectly comprehensible today.

I must confess, I got a bit distracted in the middle of my debate. After I posted my reply, I reread the line above and told myself "Bet I catch flak for that!" Good call! :lol:
That piece was orginally intended to be a bit expanded by explaining that even the scholars that can still read the language are unable to match many of Homer's descriptions of the archaic Aegean with the modern, real-life locations. Things change in three thousand years.

Your argument that Xaltotun is concerned about how much time has passed is interesting, but unconvincing. If it was the time that was the issue, he would say so. "How is it that a priest remebers so ancient a ritual?" or "How is it that knowledge of the Heart has survived these countless years?" but he doesn't. His line is "How is it that a priest of Mitra knows of the Heart of Ahriman, and the incantations of Skelos?" It definitely seems to be the Priest of Mitra quality that causes the surprise. The time isn't even mentioned.

The exchange that this whole debate revolves around is reasonably easy to understand from the context and subtext. Here it is again:

"Three thousand years !" murmured the other . "So long ? Who are you ?"
"I am Orastes, once a priest of Mitra."

"You must be deep in the arts yourself, Orastes, to have been able to restore my life. How is it that a priest of Mitra knows of the Heart of Ahriman, and the incantations of Skelos ?"
"I am no longer a priest of Mitra,"answered Orastes. "I was cast from my order because of my delving in black magic."

Now the way this appears to me is that Xaltotun asks Orastes who he is, and Orastes doesn't actually answer who he is, but rather, who he isn't.
This answer stymies Xaltotun a bit, because he expected the answer to be "a sorcerer". He doesn't "make" the connection between what he's told and what he knows has to be the truth, so he attempts to make the connection clear by asking what it is. Only then does OIrastes put two and two together for Xaltotun.
IMO, the "once a priest of Mitra" part means nothing specific to Xaltotun. If Orastes told him that he had been a box herder, then Xaltotun would have parroted back ""How is it that a box herder knows of the Heart of Ahriman, and the incantations of Skelos ?" He is fishing for information.
The other reason I don't believe that the "priest of Mitra" part means anything specific to Xaltotun is due to the context of the exchange with Orastes. If Xaltotun was familiar with the rituals and restrictions of Mitra, he would have been able to make the connection without asking Orastes. If, as Axerules asserted yesterday, the word "priest" is synonymous with "sorcerer", then Xaltotun would have been able to make the connection without asking the question at all. The context of the exchange makes no sense (or is badly written) if Xaltotun is aware of either of those things.

I just wish to reiterate the point that Axerules is asserting that this exchange validates his belief that Mitra existed during the Age of Acheron. I'm just pointing out that, while Mitra may have existed back then, this passage doesn't "prove" anything.

I must admit, I have always assumed that we have here one of Howard's continuity errors, and that the wielder of the Heart was Epimetreus. Epimetreus seems to be very much the man credited with the defeat of Set, and his comments about his life fighting Set who ruled the world, driving him into the south and saving humanity from slavery seem a poor fit for the world of 1500 years ago when Hyborian kingdoms dominated the West, but extremely well with the period of the fall of Acheron.

Give this man a cigar! :wink: Because it fits perfectly into the timeline of the original HYBORIAN AGE essay. It's a pity that Howard jettisoned the timeline by the time of HOUR OF THE DRAGON.

 

[Axerules]

Hello mr Rippke.

If, as Axerules asserted yesterday, the word "priest" is synonymous with "sorcerer", then Xaltotun would have been able to make the connection without asking the question at all.

I have not finished to write a full reply to your post. But this is false. When did I asserted that priest and sorcerer are "synonymous" ?

I wrote :"a lot of priests ARE able (if not EXPECTED) to be "skilled in the dark arts" in the Hyborian Age. "outside the Conan stories, in the Bran Mak Morn yarns, Gonar is called a "priest" as well as a "wizard" by REH."

Not "ALL priests are sorcerers."

For me, the two words are neither "synonyms" nor "antonyms" in the Hyborian Age.

Please, don't put words into my mouth.

 

[kintire]

That piece was orginally intended to be a bit expanded by explaining that even the scholars that can still read the language are unable to match many of Homer's descriptions of the archaic Aegean with the modern, real-life locations. Things change in three thousand years.

Ah yes; that makes more sense!

This answer stymies Xaltotun a bit, because he expected the answer to be "a sorcerer". He doesn't "make" the connection between what he's told and what he knows has to be the truth, so he attempts to make the connection clear by asking what it is

Actually, this is exactly the reason I believe he does know Mitra. While all priests are certainly not sorcerers, temples are closely associated with sorcery and do teach it. Given the name of a random deity the natural assumption is that the connection IS established: you learnt the lore in your temple. Only the knowledge that the temples of Mitra don't teach that sort of thing removes the connection.

If Xaltotun was familiar with the rituals and restrictions of Mitra, he would have been able to make the connection without asking Orastes. If, as Axerules asserted yesterday, the word "priest" is synonymous with "sorcerer", then Xaltotun would have been able to make the connection without asking the question at all.

I believe you have this backward. If Xaltotun was unfamiliar with the rituals and restrictions of Mitra he would have (erroneously) made the connection without asking Orastes. While "priest" is not synonumous with "sorceror" "priesthood" does seem to imply "sorcerous knowledge".

 

[kintire]

Give this man a cigar! Because it fits perfectly into the timeline of the original HYBORIAN AGE essay. It's a pity that Howard jettisoned the timeline by the time of HOUR OF THE DRAGON.

Thank you!

 

[Axerules]

Mr Rippke, I NEVER said that THIS sentence

Actually, the question Xaltotun poses to Orastes does contain "specific details" about archaic RITUALS.

was not accurate.

I know that "the resurrection ability of the Heart can be accessed by performing a certain incantation described in the writing of Skelos".
Yes, Orastes found "the writing of Skelos".

Thutothmes also knew how to perform this RITUAL.
Though I don't remember him explaining, in HotD, that he found out this knowledge in "the writing of Skelos".



In your first post ("devil's advocate") I saw THIS sentence.

the quote is basically asking how a "modern" priest knows specific details of archaic RELIGIONS.

You wrote RELIGIONS.
I replied "IMO the knowledge of (some) uses of the Heart are not the "specific details" of an archaic RELIGION."

I stick to this sentence. IMHO, a set of beliefs, a specific RELIGION ("the mysteries of Zoroastrism" :roll: ) has nothing to do with the RITUAL you're talking about in your second post.
I never wrote "you don't need an archaic ritual to resurrect someone with the Heart".

And I'm the one who is "disingenious" ? :roll: Please...

BTW, I changed the BIG, BOLD letters in your writings. But not a word. How do they read now ? Rhetorics...




Today, for the second time, you put words I NEVER wrote into my mouth.

If, as Axerules asserted yesterday, the word "priest" is synonymous with "sorcerer", then Xaltotun would have been able to make the connection without asking the question at all.

I'm, usually, a polite person. I like to discuss REH's writings.
With anyone interested.

I'm sorry, but criticizing sentences I NEVER WROTE is not what I call a "good debate"...


I call it a (cheap) rhetoric trick.




Thus said, if you want to stay on topic, I have a lot of things to say. 8)

It's not as simple as that. Xaltotun is impressed that the priest of an unknown modern god knows about a ritual that was written down over THREE THOUSAND years ago. Do you imagine the priest of whatever religion that you worship would be familiar with actual Druidic rituals? Xaltotun has to connect the dots because nobody WOULD automaticallly assume that rituals from three millenia ago would still be around and accessable.

Kintire already outlined how the "passing of time" was unconvincing. It seems to me that it is the sole argument of this whole paragraph.

Because THREE THOUSAND YEARS have passed! Western civilization has evolved from the Greeks and Celts. How many people can still read Homer's writing in the original Hellenic. The magical rituals of the Celtic Druids are completely lost to us. Do we know that the Hyborian barbarians had even developed the written word by the time they destroyed Acheron? Specific knowledge (especially hidden, specialized knowledge) can be lost in as little as a couple of generations. It is completely within the realms of probability that the knowledge was lost over the intervening millenia.

"The knowledge of the Heart of Ahriman" (not the specific resurrection RITUAL, not " the incantation of Skelos") is not something that all Aquilonians have forgotten. According to Hadrathus, the "primitive priest" who "turned it against Xaltotun" hid it in a haunted cavern and built a small temple over it, "memory from the hidden symbol faded from the minds of the common men, and was preserved only in priestly books and esoteric volumes."
When the "magic of the Mitran priest failed" against Xaltotun's acolyte the High Priest of Mitra knew exactly were to find it. I don't assume that he knew how to resurrect a corpse with it, but thanks to this knowledge, he felt he could unlock the counter-magic abilities of the Heart. He dared to face "a creature of darkness" because of his dire need of those abilities.

As a side-note REH didn't explicitely wrote if the temple was dedicated by "the primitive priest" ("the feathered shaman of the barbarians") to Mitra or to a previous god like Bori, but it is unlikely. REH never wrote that an elder cult was supplanted by a new one. The temple was rebuilt three times but the knowledge remained.
I'm -almost- sure it was dedicated to MITRA since the fall of Acheron.


The Heart of Ahriman is not unknown to the four outcasts, who heard about it as far as Khitai.

It is not unknown to the surnatural creatures of the Hyborian Age. According to Thutothmes :

And so the word came southward. The night wind whispered it, the ravens croaked of it as they flew, and the grim bats told it to the owls and the serpents that lurk in hoary ruins. Werewolf and vampire knew, and the ebon-bodied demons that prowl by night. (....) For the heart of Ahriman had come again into the world to fulfill its cryptic destiny.

And, of course, Hadrathus, High Priest of Asura in Aquilonia knew how to use it to oppose Xaltotun's magic.

Of course Set"s priests delve into the black arts. We don't know enough about Hanuman's to really make an accurate assessment. The question is whether the priests of "good aligned" gods would be allowed to delve in the dark arts.

IF you're correct, why would Xaltotun assume that Mitra is a "good aligned" good ?


Your explanation was:

Xaltotun can easily connect Orastes status as a former priest to his delving in the dark arts. The priest of an "evil" god wouldn't have any reason to be a former priest. He only needs to be the priest of a God that forbides sorcery to make the transition to ex-priest. Xaltotun doesn't have to be aware of Mitra at all to make the connection.

I see a thousand possibilities...
He could have, like Thoth and Thutothmes, opponents inside his own cult. Wasn't Thoth expelled by the Stygian priesthood in Phoenix on the Sword ?
He could have also violated a religious taboo that has nothing to do with "practicising sorcery".
Well, I think that you can be a former priest if you deflorate all the temple consecrated virgins...



BTW, abouth this: "We don't know enough about Hanuman's to really make an accurate assessment".
I always assumed that the "Dance of the Cobras" was magic. Conan saw smoke, the girl saw serpents. Isn't mesmerism/hypnotism "a black art" ?

I am not, however, stating that you are wrong in your take on the exchange. It can certainly be taken in that context. I'm just pointing out that your assertion that Mitra existed during the age of Acheron needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

It seems, from reading your last post, that you changed your mind: "this passage doesn't prove anything".

Fine.


Can you prove that my assertion "Mitra was worshipped before the fall of Acheron" is wrong ? I mean, if my "take", "could be taken in that context" a few days ago... and if you changed your opinion, it means that you must be aware of something I don't know...
I would gladly learn about any REH-related evidence that contradicts it. :wink:

 

[Axerules]

Hello Kintire,

I must admit, I have always assumed that we have here one of Howard's continuity errors, and that the wielder of the Heart was Epimetreus. Epimetreus seems to be very much the man credited with the defeat of Set, and his comments about his life fighting Set who ruled the world, driving him into the south and saving humanity from slavery seem a poor fit for the world of 1500 years ago when Hyborian kingdoms dominated the West, but extremely well with the period of the fall of Acheron.

I don't believe that Epemitreus was "Xaltotun's bane".
Like I outlined it in an earlier post, in The Phoenix on the Sword, several characters including Conan, the unnamed high-priest of Mitra and the Aquilonian nobles seem to know that Epemitreus is dead 1500 years ago. He is an "historical figure" for them.

The key is the "feathered shaman"/"primitive priest". Would Xaltotun AND Hadrathus both forget to mention Epemitreus if he was the "Heart-wielder" ? At least one of them would have call him by his name, if REH really intended him to be "Xaltotun's bane".
Even if Xaltotun could be disdainful, it wouldn't be very respectful from Hadrathus to call him a "primitive priest". Hadrathus is VERY knowledgeable and has access to sensitive information about Mitra's cult, including some of their secrets, their history and the moves of the High priest. And he wouldn't be aware of what the Nobles of king Conan's court know ? Another REH inconcistency ? Not for me.

BTW, "I drove him into the shadows of the mysterious south, but in dark Stygia men still worship him who to us is the arch-demon." could either be "flowery and figurative" OR, if you absolutely want it to be genuine, it could refer to the defeat of Old Stygia in Shem (I have to check again The Hyborian Age to be sure about this).

IMO REH didn't forget TPotS when he wrote THotD. I don't think he made so much inconcistencies...


Hello Mr Rippke.

Give this man a cigar! :wink: Because it fits perfectly into the timeline of the original HYBORIAN AGE essay. It's a pity that Howard jettisoned the timeline by the time of HOUR OF THE DRAGON.

IF it is true, IF Epemitreus was the "Heart-wielder" (I still don't believe it)...
And since "the feathered shaman" was also called "a primitive PRIEST"...


Then it validates my assertion: MITRA WAS WORSHIPPED BEFORE THE FALL OF ACHERON.

 

[kintire]

Even if Xaltotun could be disdainful, it wouldn't be very respectful from Hadrathus to call him a "primitive priest". Hadrathus is VERY knowledgeable and has access to sensitive information about Mitra's cult,

And is a member of the cult of Asura, which has been vilified, hated, persecuted and otherwise oppressed by the Cult of Mitra right up to very recent times. He is aiding Conan, and seems to be largely benign, but there's no reason to believe that he's any better disposed to the cult of Mitra than Xaltotun is, though for different reasons.

BTW, "I drove him into the shadows of the mysterious south, but in dark Stygia men still worship him who to us is the arch-demon." could either be "flowery and figurative" OR, if you absolutely want it to be genuine, it could refer to the defeat of Old Stygia in Shem (I have to check again The Hyborian Age to be sure about this).

I always have grave doubts about attempts to make Howard's characters' remarks "figurative". I'm always suspicious that this process is one of molding the works to fit a personal point of view. I'm probably guilty of that myself, and I would like to make quite clear that the bane of Acheron=Epimetreus theory is a theory of mine that a strict reading of the works doesn't support. However, my experience of Howard's writing is that he really doesn't do "figurative" much. Some of his characters may use figurative language, but generally they say what they mean. He is dismissive of high faluting philosophy: his gods are beings that walk the earth, living, loving and fighting. We don't have tales of Set's fall to Mitra, but we have tales of Odin's fall to Christ, and there's nothing metaphorical about it. He shows up at the battle of Clontarf and gets his ass kicked. No, I'm inclined to believe that when Epimetreus said Set ruled the world, he meant he ruled the world, not "had significant influence over the southern reaches".