Epemitreus and the Cult of Mitras

[Darkstorm]

It wouldn't be easy to believe that, around 1500 years after Acheron's fall, the cult of Set was menacing again the Hyborian Kingdoms, and then Epemitreus helped to drive it back to Stygia? The timeline you are posting in "REH - Complete Inspirated Timeline" - based upon all Howard's writings - is the most complete and the best I've ever seen in my life! So, why worry to use the time's space from The Hyborian Age? :? I believe that, if Howard had a longer life, he would rewrite that essay with a much more thousands of years between the Great Cataclysm and the Age of Conan, Ice Age, the Last Cataclysm and the first Aryan migrations, and he would doubtless include Acheron, Imperial Atlantis, and other facts he didn't mention in the essay we know.

I'm not suggesting that the Epemitreus period shouldn't be placed 1500 years after Acheron's fall; the repeated use of the dating, as well as the vagueness of his fight with Set, makes it's post-Acheron placement pretty unassailable. 8)

What I find sad is that originally Howard had a plan for Epemitreus that fell through when he revised the timeline mid-way through the series. I personally like the originally intended placement (and it's context) better than the revised placement, with it's rather arbitrary context.:?

As for what Howard would have done had he lived; who knows? What you suggest is certainly possible. Since Howard actually decided to stop writing Conan stories a year prior to his death, it's possible that he may never have returned to the character or revised anything. We will never know...

 

[The King]

When did Set rule the world ?
At his best, Set "ruled" over the northern Black Kingdoms, Stygia, Acheron, the oldest Hyborian lands and Shem.
Nordheirm, Cimmeria, Hyperborea, Pict"land", ALL the EAST, Zamora and possibly Zingara, the southern Black Kingdoms were FREE of "Set's rule".
You have to be VERY "figurative" to call what Set once "ruled" the "world".
Be it 1500, 2000 or 3000 years before Conan.

I didn't read this topic until now and though I know how futile debatting with kintire can be, Set did ruled the world at the beginning of time and enslaved the humans. This is clearly depicted in "the shadow kingdom". At the end of this story, Kull decretes that he want to root out this race and it can be supposed that now that they could easily be discovered (though the mystic sentence "Ka Nama Kaa Lajerama") they had to hide in the deep jungle of the South to avoid total extermination of their race.

When the world was young and men were weak, and the fiends of the night walked free, I strove with Set by fire and steel and the juice of the upas-tree; Now that I sleep in the mount's black heart, and the ages take their toll, Forget ye him who fought with the Snake to save the human soul?

Ages ago Set coiled about the world like a python about its prey.

Howard doesn't speak of Mitra in the Kull stories but after connecting Conan's and Kull's, I wonder whether Mitra and Valka weren't the same (may be because the languages or the people who worshipped them/him were different - As for instance Apollon, a god from the East, was worshipped under different names by several civilizations but there are many more examples) but Set isn't directly mentioned either but we can deduct that the Snakes that speak worshipped Set (at least this would be logical).

 

[Axerules]

Hello !

I've always rather seen Epemitreus' name as a bit of a pun on Howard's part. The name breaks down into Epe (épée is French for sword) and mitreus (having to do with Mitra). Thus the name means "Sword of Mitra".:wink:

épée comes from the word "spatha" in Latin (Publius Cornelius Tacitus used it to describe a kind of two edged sword), the French made from it the word "espée" that later became "épée", the Italians "spada" and in Spanish (as well as in Portuguese) it became "espada".
The other etymological possibility could be the Greek word "epi", which means upon, before, above or over.
I do agree that the "sword of Mitra" reading makes more sense.:wink:

[This, by the way, is the absolute best evidence that Mitra worship existed prior to Xaltotun’s life, I was way wrong on that score.]

Thanks !

Unfortunately, Howard upended all of the wonderful chronological datings of THE HYBORIAN AGE when he published the story BLACK COLOSSUS. I’m not so sure that he changed his history much, though. Even though the historical essay doesn’t mention Set-worshippers living in the regions that the Hyborians drifted into, THE PHOENIX ON THE SWORD certainly does. All he really does is bring the inchoate Set-worshippers into sharper focus. For whatever reason, in BLACK COLOSSUS, Howard relates that the events that led to the founding of the nation of Koth (the destruction of Kuthchemes and the fall of Stygia’s northern kingdom) took place three thousand years prior to the life of Conan.

And in Black Colossus, we learn that the founders of Khoraja, Yasmela's ancestors WERE worshippers of Mitra. As well as Koth's people since the country exist (see the Tombalku draft: they were "originally" Mitran worshippers).

The three thousand year date also comes up in THE HOUR OF THE DRAGON, and it is the length of time between the fall of Acheron and Conan’s life. It is of interest to note that Koth, Ophir, and Corinthia existed at this point and were subject to Acheron. When Acheron fell the three nations regained their independence, which pretty much means that Acheron’s fall came a while after the Hyborians kicked the Stygians out of the eastern southlands.

Why would it not be at the same time ? I mean, just after defeating Acheron, it could be possible that they "pushed" further South, no ?

However, just using the context of THE HYBORIAN AGE alone, what I see as Howard’s intent runs something like this:
[Prior to year 2000] The Hyborians drift into the southlands and encounter the Set-worshippers of Acheron in the western regions and the northern Stygian kingdom in the eastern part of the southlands. Epemitreus the Sage begins his mission to drive the Set-worshippers out of the region.
[Around Year 2000] The Hyborians drive the Stygians out of the eastern uplands and found the nation of Koth. The kingdoms of Ophir and Corinthia are founded shortly thereafter. The three nascent kingdoms become subject to Acheron for a time and regain their independence when the evil empire is destroyed. Aquilonia, Nemedia, and Argos are then founded.

The problem I see is with Koth. Not only with BC. It does also conflict with Pelias saying that Khossus V (not the first ruler) moved the capital of the country to Khorshemish 3000 years ago.
I agree with Fernando, THA can't be the final word. That's why I also repeated (stubbornly?) my "paradigm" statement. Several published stories (and one draft) should prevail upon THA. IMO a draft/note/letter/THA stands as long as it doesn't contradict published stories. And since several yarns give us Koth as more than 3000 years old...

BTW, I've also read in Conan.com a more detailed post about Conan's life being at the end of the age : I believe you're right about this point. :wink:

 

[Darkstorm]

The three thousand year date also comes up in THE HOUR OF THE DRAGON, and it is the length of time between the fall of Acheron and Conan’s life. It is of interest to note that Koth, Ophir, and Corinthia existed at this point and were subject to Acheron. When Acheron fell the three nations regained their independence, which pretty much means that Acheron’s fall came a while after the Hyborians kicked the Stygians out of the eastern southlands.

Why would it not be at the same time ? I mean, just after defeating Acheron, it could be possible that they "pushed" further South, no ?

Quote from Black Colossus:"In that ivory dome lay the bones of Thugra Khotan, the dark sorcerer who had reigned in Kuthchemes three thousand years ago, when the kingdoms of Stygia stretched far northward of the great river, over the meadows of Shem, and into the uplands. Then the great drift of the Hyborians swept southward from the cradle-land of their race near the northern pole. It was a titanic drift, extending over centuries and ages. But in the reign of Thugra Khotan, the last magician of Kuthchemes, grey-eyed, tawny-haired barbarians in wolf-skins and scale-mail had ridden from the north into the rich uplands to carve out the kingdom of Koth with their iron swords. They had stormed over Kuthchemes like a tidal wave , washing the marble towers in blood, and the northern Stygian kingdom had gone down in fire and ruin"

This passage is explicitly showing that the nation of Koth was created AFTER the northern Stygian nation was thrown down with the sack of Kuthchemes.

Quote from Hour of the Dragon:"The barbarians who overthrew Acheron set up new kingdoms", quoth Orastes. "Where the empire had stretched now rose realms called Aquilonia, and Nemedia, and Argos, from the tribes that founded them. The older kingdoms of Ophir, Corinthia, and western Koth, which had been subject to the kings of Acheron, regained their independence with the fall of the empire".

This passage shows that the nation of Koth, (as well as Ophir and Corinthia) had already been in existence prior to the fall of Acheron. I honestly don't see any possible way to reconcile this with an idea of "pushing further south". Howard seems pretty clear on the subject.

However, just using the context of THE HYBORIAN AGE alone, what I see as Howard’s intent runs something like this:
[Prior to year 2000] The Hyborians drift into the southlands and encounter the Set-worshippers of Acheron in the western regions and the northern Stygian kingdom in the eastern part of the southlands. Epemitreus the Sage begins his mission to drive the Set-worshippers out of the region.
[Around Year 2000] The Hyborians drive the Stygians out of the eastern uplands and found the nation of Koth. The kingdoms of Ophir and Corinthia are founded shortly thereafter. The three nascent kingdoms become subject to Acheron for a time and regain their independence when the evil empire is destroyed. Aquilonia, Nemedia, and Argos are then founded.

The problem I see is with Koth. Not only with BC. It does also conflict with Pelias saying that Khossus V (not the first ruler) moved the capital of the country to Khorshemish 3000 years ago. I don't have my Del Rey book at hand, I can't remember from the top of my head if this story was written before or after THA.
I agree with Fernando, we can't use it as the final word. That's why I also repeated (stubbornly?) my "paradigm" statement. Several published stories (and one draft) should prevail upon THA. IMO a draft/note/letter/THA stands as long as it doesn't contradict published stories. And since several yarns give us Koth as more than 3000 years old...

Quote from Scarlet Citadel:"When the city was founded three thousand years ago there were ruins of an earlier city on and about these hills. King Khossus V, the founder, built his palace on the hill, ...."
The next paragraph states:" He then departed with his whole court to the eastern corner of the kingdom and built a new city. The palace on the hill was not used and fell into ruins. When Akkutho I revived the lost glories of Khorshemish, he built a fortress there."

It really does seem that Howard tries to hang too much history on the Koth of 3000 years gone by. You can make an argument that the 3000 year date is essentially correct and that the founding of Khorshemish takes place between the sack of Kuthchemes and the destruction of Acheron. But then you have the problem of explaining how come Khossus V isn't actually Khossus I.
Or you can regard the 3000 year date as inexact and attribute it to Pelias not having completely regained his memory from the abuse of the Yogtha plant. I could easily see Khorshemish being founded something like two hundred years after the nation of Koth came into existence, and Pelias just glossing a 2800 year date into a 3000 year date because of hazy memory. That solves the problem of Khossus V not being the first king. Also, this would make the ruined city that Khorshemish is built upon essentially Acheronian.
Just based on the context to the rest of the stories, my bet would be on the second of the arguments.

I completely agree that the published stories should take precedence over THA. However, in this case you've got three different Kothic historical events linked to a date of 3000 years. They are all from the published stories and they all can't be correct, so which one is?
To my way of thinking, the Black Colossus date is correct simply bacause Howard is relating the date as the "narrator" of the story. The other two dates are related by have character's chatting about the dates and it's easier to discount their accuracy as "character generalization". I do realize that Howard has given us all three dates, I'm just trying to rationalize why they all can't be right. :wink:

 

[kintire]

I believe that, if Howard had a longer life, he would rewrite that essay with a much more thousands of years between the Great Cataclysm and the Age of Conan, Ice Age, the Last Cataclysm and the first Aryan migrations,

The problem is that he had a limited ability to rewrite, because he had already published many works. I imagine he was reluctant to frankly contradict statements already in print. Ironic really: he created a fictional history at least partly to avoid being constrained by real history in his storytelling, and then it grew large enough to constrain him itself!

Howard doesn't speak of Mitra in the Kull stories but after connecting Conan's and Kull's, I wonder whether Mitra and Valka weren't the same

I think they very probably were. That would have been an earlier cycle in their struggle, but the basic situation is very similar. In fact, that's probably the best way to fit Epimetreus in to the new timeline: though Acheron was destroyed the new kingdoms were being manipulated from the shadows.

It really does seem that Howard tries to hang too much history on the Koth of 3000 years gone by. You can make an argument that the 3000 year date is essentially correct and that the founding of Khorshemish takes place between the sack of Kuthchemes and the destruction of Acheron. But then you have the problem of explaining how come Khossus V isn't actually Khossus I.
Or you can regard the 3000 year date as inexact and attribute it to Pelias not having completely regained his memory from the abuse of the Yogtha plant. I could easily see Khorshemish being founded something like two hundred years after the nation of Koth came into existence, and Pelias just glossing a 2800 year date into a 3000 year date because of hazy memory.

Its perfectly possible that Pelias is rounding. After all, does the difference matter? There is another possibility though. It depends what Khossus was considered to be king of, The modern kingdom of Koth as a geographical entity or the people or tribe: the "Kothii" or whatever they were. If the latter, Khossus I could have been king of the people long before they thought of moving south.

 

[Axerules]

I completely agree that the published stories should take precedence over THA. However, in this case you've got three different Kothic historical events linked to a date of 3000 years. They are all from the published stories and they all can't be correct, so which one is?
To my way of thinking, the Black Colossus date is correct simply bacause Howard is relating the date as the "narrator" of the story. The other two dates are related by have character's chatting about the dates and it's easier to discount their accuracy as "character generalization". I do realize that Howard has given us all three dates, I'm just trying to rationalize why they all can't be right. :wink:

I do agree about narrator precedence.


But in The Hour of the Dragon, there's also this paragraph, related by the narrator: Del Rey, p204

The Stygians were an ancient race, a dark, inscrutable people, powerful and merciless. Long ago their rule had stretched far north of the Styx, beyond the meadowlands of Shem, and into the fertile uplands now inhabited by the peoples of Koth, Ophir and Argos. Their borders had marched with those of ancient Acheron. But Acheron had fallen, and the barbaric ancestors of the Hyborians had swept southward in wolfskins and horned helmets, driving the ancient rulers of the land before them. The Stygians had not forgotten.

According to the narrator, Hyborians pushed further southward, AFTER defeating Acheron.

Now yes, a contradiction can be seen between the quote from Black Colossus and the other dates from The Scarlet Citadel and The Hour of the Dragon... But it can't be solved by the narrator precedence in BC...Because of this other narrator comment. Damn ! :?

It contradicts what Orastes said about Koth and Ophir. And Xaltotun didn't corrected him when he said that "the older kingdoms of Ophir, Corinthia and western Koth" were subjects to the kings of Acheron. He should know. How could Koth and Ophir be subjects to the kings of Acheron AND belong to the northern Stygian holdings ? Does it mean REH made an error ? In the same yarn ? My "rationalization" would be that Koth and Ophir were smaller kingdoms when they were founded (note that Orastes talked about western Koth) and that they grew larger with the southern drift. Koth added eastern territories to his kingdom after the defeat of Acheron. Perhaps did some kind of "refounding" occur. Perhaps "carve out" (in BC) the kingdom could mean that Koth, having not his modern boundaries, was "unfinished"...


BTW, I've read again P. Louinet's Hyborian Genesis, according to him, "Epemitreus" was, like a lot of names in Phoenix (Stygia, king Numa, Hyperborea, Hyrkania...) a borrowing from T. Bulfinch, "Epimetheus", Prometheus brother gave his name to the prophet that REH called "Epemiteus" in the first draft of Phoenix, and he altered the name into Epemitreus later. Too bad, I liked the "épée" idea...


I also would like to add that published was not the right word to use. I should have written completed. I mean that any story REH finished and sent to F. Wright should be equally valid, even if it was rejected. All should be considered as "authorial intent" :wink:, even if the editor didn't buy them.

 

[kintire]

According to the narrator, Hyborians pushed further southward, AFTER defeating Acheron.

It contradicts what Orastes said about Koth and Ophir

I think we have two different Southward pushes, the first round Acheron into Koth and Ophir, and the second after Acheron's fall into Poitain, Argos and Zingara (the last being only partially successful).

 

[Axerules]

I had further thoughts about this :

What I find sad is that originally Howard had a plan for Epemitreus that fell through when he revised the timeline mid-way through the series. I personally like the originally intended placement (and it's context) better than the revised placement, with it's rather arbitrary context.

REH went through an intensive creative phase during March 1932, he made a lot of Conan work (250 pages according to P. Louinet) and toyed with several ideas before finishing THA. Was his first intent to give a great importance to Epemitreus at the time he wrote The Phoenix on the Sword ? Certainly.
In this first story, what were Epis aims ? He said that Thoth, "a blood-mad sorcerer", "Set's neophyte" stands " in the path of imperial destiny". Conans life needs to be saved, even if there's no immediate threat for Aquilonia to fall to a Setite conspiracy. Thoth didn't specificaly targeted the king. He told to the slave of the Ring (speaking of Ascalante) :

"Kill him ! Aye," in a blind burst of passion, "and all with him !"

Thoth didn't know if the Demon would find the conspirators before, during or after their assassination attempt. Of course Epi was aware of the exact moment and interfered.

In The Scarlet Citadel, Conan AND Aquilonia are under the threat of Tsotha-lanti, another power-mad sorcerer who praid Set (not a priest this time).

"Oh Set !" he lifted his hands and invoked the serpent-god to even Strabonus' horror, "grant us victory and I swear I will offer up to thee five hundred virgins of Shamar, writhing in their blood !"

Where is Epi ? The surnatural help that Conan received came from Pelias, a sinister sorcerer who sweared only by Ishtar in the story.
REH had already decided that there was no need for an Hyborian Gandalf. I like JRR Tolkien books and Olórin the Maiar, but I prefer what Howard did.

Mitras interference with mortals affairs became more subtle -certainly not nonexistent- but less obvious in the stories. I've said in other threads that I believed the oracle in Black Colossus to be genuine. IMO the whole beginning scene of this tale would make no sense if it wasn't.

What about Mitra (and Epi) in The Hour of the Dragon ? I don't think Epis "unseen wings" were covered by the feathers of the Mitraic shaman. Mitra is supposed to have several Saints ("Saints of Heaven !") and a whole "heavenly host". Epi isn't alone, the unnamed primitive priest probably became one of the "Saints" of Mitra.
IMO, one -really- annoying thing was Mitras/Epis apparent absence during the events of THotD : Aquilonia (and most of the Hyborian lands) are in danger of being reshaped and the High-Priest of Set of Acheron is about to dominate the West !
So where's Mitra in this time of dire need ? Could Epi have contacted Hadrathus ? Even if they're both Sets enemies, I don't think so. Does the "universal Hyborian god" not care anymore for his people ? IMO, no. I think there's one scene where Mitra (and perhaps Epi) could be "reinserted" in THotD.
When Conan met Zelata, she said that wisdom may come to her "in dreams". Conan had a premonitory one. And she explained :

"I am but an oracle, through whose lips the gods speak. My leaps are sealed by them lest I speak too much. You must find the heart of your kingdom. I can say no more. My lips are opened and sealed by the gods."

She wasn't a priestess of Mitra, but who were the "gods" she was talking about ? Which one is concerned by the fate of Aquilonia, sends oracles in times of need and has an intercessor who interferes during dreams ? :wink:
Instead of "inserting" Epi 3000 years ago and covering him with feathers, I'd rather see him behind this. I think he could have helped the Cimmerian through Zelata. Or perhaps was she directly contacted by Mitra himself. But I have a hard time to believe that Mitra had nothing to do with this.

 

[kintire]

You have good points, but I would also say that it is equally possible that Mitra (or Epimetreus) always intervenes to the minimum possible degree. Yes, the situations in both Scarlet Citadel and hour of the Dragon were very serious, but Conan was in fact equal to them. No intervention was necessary. In Phoenix, Conan needed the help. A combination of treachery, his own reluctance to kill a poet and sorcery had put him in a position where he wasn't going to win without help, and without Conan Tsotha or Xaltotun will conquer the world. Ina sense, Epimetreus had already intervened to save the nation from those events, by preserving Conan earlier.

 

[Axerules]

Yes, the situations in both Scarlet Citadel and hour of the Dragon were very serious, but Conan was in fact equal to them. No intervention was necessary.

I don't think so. Conan needed some kind of surnatural help in both instances.

Without Zelata/Hadrathus, Conan would not have known that the Heart was required. She received insights through prophetic dreams, Hadrathus gathered informations through secret means of knowledge. Conan was not the Heart-wielder at the end of THotD. It's unlikely that the Cimmerian could be able to unlock the counter-magic abilities of the Heart to best Xaltotun like Hadrathus did.

If Pelias didn't summon a surnatural creature by the Masters words and signs, Conan could not have been in Aquilonia in time to save the day...

The situation in THotD (the reshaping, the High Priest of Set about to rule the West) is far worse for Mitras worshippers than in Phoenix, when "only" Conans life was at stake. The choice of keeping Mitras interferences on a minimal level is not linked to the situations being easier to handle for the king in TSC or THotD.

 

[kintire]

I don't think so. Conan needed some kind of surnatural help in both instances.

Oh absolutely. But the point is, that Conan was going to win, even without Epimetreus' intervention. Therefore, no intervention was necessary.

The situation in THotD (the reshaping, the High Priest of Set about to rule the West) is far worse for Mitras worshippers than in Phoenix, when "only" Conans life was at stake. The choice of keeping Mitras interferences on a minimal level is not linked to the situations being easier to handle for the king in TSC or THotD.

Your view is too short term. Phoenix occurs before HotD: if Conan had died in Phoenix, Xaltotun would have won in HotD, or Tsotha in SC. And the intervention is so linked. Its hard to see how Conan could have survived Phoenix with no weapon that could harm the demon, whereas he not only could but DID handle the situations in the other two.

 

[Axerules]

whereas he not only could but DID handle the situations in the other two.

Not alone.

And of course, if he had been killed, he wouldn't have done anything later. To deny it would not be short-term sight but stupidity.

What I said is that REH's choice to keep Mitras interferences on a minimal level, more subtle and mysterious, was deliberate and not because of the seriousness of the situations.

The problem for me is to understand why the surnatural help that Conan NEEDED came from Hadrathus/Zelata or Pelias instead of Epi. Isn't Epi supposed to help Aquilonia in time of dire need ? If everything he told to Conan was true, Epi would be the "to-go" guy in case of a Setite threat to Aquilonia or the whole West...

 

[kintire]

The problem for me is to understand why the surnatural help that Conan NEEDED came from Hadrathus/Zelata or Pelias instead of Epi. Isn't Epi supposed to help Aquilonia in time of dire need ?

I'm assuming a degree of foresight on Epi's part. The HotD and SC LOOKED more serious than Phoenix to the people involved, but as a prophet Epi could see that they would in fact turn out all right. The people to solve them were in place, at least partly through his own efforts. Actually, Phoenix was more serious, because it wasn't going to get resolved.

 

[Axerules]

I'm assuming a degree of foresight on Epi's part. The HotD and SC LOOKED more serious than Phoenix to the people involved, but as a prophet Epi could see that they would in fact turn out all right.
The people to solve them were in place, at least partly through his own efforts. Actually, Phoenix was more serious, because it wasn't going to get resolved.

THotD didn't "looked" but WAS more serious. A marginal reading of the text is enough to see it.

Aquilonia was invaded, the land became barren.
The Mitran cult was beheaded (the high-priest of Mitra was killed by the creature of the Heart-temple), people suffered and died.
Not weird threats but actual events.
A little bit illogical for Epi to sleep under Golamira during THotD and to let all this happen IF everything he claimed was true.

IF Epi had SO MUCH "foresight"...the events of THotD could have been avoided: if he knew EVERYTHING that would happen, he should have prevented the theft of the Heart in the first place...