Enlo

[The King]

That's news to me (and probably to Greg and Sandy as well). Jeff

It is good to learn something new sometimes, isn't it.

Darksense can't function under (day)light conditions, else it wouldn't be called darksense. A bat can't use its echolocation if sound wave can't be propagated.

Trolls have eyes but are notoriously bad-sighted. Still, eyes can only be used when there is a light source even at a minimum level, else you have blank eyes and suffer from blindness.

But to be sure, may be you should ask Greg and Sandy and Nick and Michael and Rick, etc.

 

[richaje]

Darksense can't function under (day)light conditions, else it wouldn't be called darksense? Do you think a bat could use its echolocation if sound wave couldn't be propagated?

Its called Darksense because the sense allows trolls to operate in Darkness. Uzko and enlo can also see with their eyes - although their eyesight is inferior to humans.

However, keep in mind that Darksense "sees" different things from what they see with ocular vision.

Also keep in mind that uzuz have very vestigial vision and can only see the basic presence or absence of light.

BTW, this is from an old writeup of Darksense:

"Troll Senses
Trolls are able to move in the darkest night, due to their stygian origin. They have a perception, "dark sense", not available to other races. Dark sense combines hearing, smelling, feeling, and some non-specific sensing abilities, and allows trolls to maneuver as though humans in sunshine.

Though trolls hate the light, that element does no direct harm. Trolls prefer darkness, and their seeing is hampered by light, though light never damages their dark sense. Cave trolls and trollkin, however, are affected by light, becoming fearful and demoralized when within it."

Jeff

 

[The King]

Its called Darksense because the sense allows trolls to operate in Darkness. Uzko and enlo can also see with their eyes - although their eyesight is inferior to humans.
Jeff

I totally agree with you on that, and this implies that darksense can't be used under lighting conditions.

However, keep in mind that Darksense "sees" different things from what they see with ocular vision.

I agree too, this is a special sense innate to trolls (as the 5 common senses are innate to humans). But as I wrote earlier, a sense isn't enough to hunt (as sonar only wouldn't be useful to a bat if it couldn't locate warm blood).

Also keep in mind that uzuz have very vestigial vision and can only see the basic presence or absence of light.

I agree again and that is logical because trolls live in a medium much devoid of light.

I think darksense can be best compared with the special sense that sharks do possess to "smell" blood miles aways (they also possess a sonar and are very bad-sighted).

But again , if there is a lack of blood, sharks can't use their special sense, so if there is a lack of darkness, it is logical to assume that trolls can't use their darksense.

 

[richaje]

I think darksense can be best compared with the special sense that sharks do possess to "smell" blood miles aways (they also possess a sonar and are very bad-sighted). But again , if there is a lack of blood, sharks can't use their special sense, so if there is a lack of darkness, it is logical to assume that trolls can't use their darksense.

You know that sharks use their superior sense of smell to find prey and then use the lateral lines running along their sides to sense movement in the water, and also employ special sensory pores on their heads (Ampullae of Lorenzini) to detect electrical fields created by prey and the ambient electric fields of the ocean. These sense work even if there is a lack of blood.

Maybe sharks aren't the example you want.

Jeff

 

[The King]

This is a thing I didn't know as well as you (as probably Greg and Sandy as well).

But keep in mind that this innate sense to detect electric fields is only good in a aquatic medium because of the conductivity of water. Thus without water, this sense is worthless.

It wasn't a bad example because it describes well that a sense goes along with a condition (e.g. eyes and light source) and without this condition, the sense can't function properly.

 

[richaje]

This is a thing I didn't know as well as you (as probably Greg and Sandy as well).

I'm sure Sandy knew this - he's pretty shockingly well-informed about animal biology. And about sharks (some years back, I managed to get him to go swimming in the Pacific Ocean off the coast of Australia - which he said was worth +1d6 SAN because he confronted his fear of sharks).

Jeff

 

[duncan_disorderly]

actually, this is a pretty good example of the problem. Trolls use Darksense. We know that Mistress Race Trolls have better Darksense than Dark Trolls, and Dark Trolls have better Darksense than Trollkin. Sandy equated this to Sonar, which is a "Real World"/"Scientific" explanation, which might lead us away from understanding the link between Darksense and the link between the User and the Darkness Rune.

It is a useful analogy, but isn't necessarily the whole story.

 

[homerjsinnott]

It seems like quite a good example, as a shark out of water (forget the breathing difficulties) would find it impossible to locate anything its eyes couldn't see, wouldn't this be true of trolls in day or strong light? Their hearing would help a bit but not much.


Yay for blind trolls!

 

[The King]

In trollpak it is said that trolls had blank eyes before Yelm was killed (because sight is useless in darkness). It is also said that trolls genetically mutated in order to survive to their new condition. So it is possible to imagine that if they developped their eyes to adapt to new lightning condition, their darksense suffered because the initial conditions were no more.

I take the principle of a blind man as an inversed example: to compensate for the loss of an essential sense (sight), blind men usually developp their hearing sense at their best, again to adapt to their new conditions.

So it is easy to imagine that if trolls developped their sight it is because they needed this sense to compensate for loss of other sense (obviously darksense).

I am sure that if science existed on Glorantha, scientists would say that the troll curse is but a mere fairy tale invention and that trollkins and the result of the new living conditions of this race. They are clumsy because the original conditions of the race have mutated ( a good point for the kingdom of logic).

I also believe that darksense is linked with the rune of darkness, but it can't prevail under the light of Yelm reascended.

(All of a sudden, I also have this extrapolating idea: Yelmalio also sort of cursed the trolls as he gave up the power of fire to Zorak Zoran at the Hill of Gold. Indeed, trolls may think they have won this fight, but fire is light and if they rely on it, their darksense will be impaired. Can anyone imagine a troll using fire/light in Wonderhome, recreating thus the conditions that compelled them to leave? This is where gift is double edged).

 

[richaje]

In trollpak it is said that trolls had blank eyes before Yelm was killed (because sight is useless in darkness). It is also said that trolls genetically mutated in order to survive to their new condition. So it is possible to imagine that if they developped their eyes to adapt to new lightning condition, their darksense suffered because the initial conditions were no more.

Where in Uz Lore does it say that?

Jeff

 

[Cleombrotus]

Personally I stick with Runequest for Glorantha because it helps explain this stuff. Of course trolls can see because they can develop search/scan. Low skill? Blinded by daylight. High skill? Accustomed to it.

Because we play in a skill based system, there are relatively few absolutes. RQGlorantha is not a place where trolls can do this and humans can do that - its a place where some trolls can, some trolls can't, etc, etc.

I think that the vast majority of Gloranthan creatures are defined enough yet ambiguous enough to be interesting yet playable. The more you seek to explain certain minutiae the more you steer toward generics which really belong in the various "Monster Manuals"...

The ambiguity is a feature of the mythical side of Glorantha and that is part of the attraction of Glorantha. Granted it's also part of the frustration...

 

[The King]

In trollpak it is said that trolls had blank eyes before Yelm was killed (because sight is useless in darkness). It is also said that trolls genetically mutated in order to survive to their new condition. So it is possible to imagine that if they developped their eyes to adapt to new lightning condition, their darksense suffered because the initial conditions were no more.

Where in Uz Lore does it say that?

Jeff

I admit it isn't expressly written that trolls had blind eyes but:

Skulls and Evolution (p. 50-51) in Uz Lore (trollpak from the 2nd RQ edition): the evolution from the mistress race to the dark troll with the blind troll inbetween.
For those who don't possess this excellent sourcebook, I explain briefly:

"Trolls had rudimentary eyes in the underwold, as seen in the mistress race skull"

On the evolution map, we clearly see that blind troll type existed until the lesser darkness (that is when the trolls left wonderhome).
The next evolution was the dark troll living during the greater darkness (chaos invasion) which is "the most common type of troll alive today" and whose "eyes are disproportionnaly small, farsighted and partially color-blind".


As to darksense I have the following definition in Trollpak (book of Uz, p. 7):
"Darksense is a form of sonar which a troll produces through the vibration of membranes in his nose and throat." .... "The darksense ability of a Mistress race is to a dark troll's as an eagle sight's to a human's."

In fact, sarksense is very similar to the echolocation of bats (which are also color-blind) but I suppose it isn't exactly the same as darksense (else it wouldn't have been called that).

 

[Ilkka]

Skulls and Evolution (p. 50-51) in Uz Lore (trollpak from the 2nd RQ edition): the evolution from the mistress race to the dark troll with the blind troll inbetween. [...]
On the evolution map, we clearly see that blind troll type existed until the lesser darkness (that is when the trolls left wonderhome).
The next evolution was the dark troll living during the greater darkness (chaos invasion) which is "the most common type of troll alive today" and whose "eyes are disproportionnaly small, farsighted and partially color-blind".

The data of Trollpak (Uz Lore 1, page 50) clearly shows that blind trolls were a separate evolutionary branch of the Green and Golden Ages, and died out in the beginning of the Lesser Darkness. They were not "in between" the Mistress Race and Dark troll. Blind trolls developed from the Mistress Race trolls, and lived side by side with a wide variety of other troll sub-species - all of them with eyesight.

Obviously, however useless sight may have been in the primal darkness of the Wonderhome, trolls with eyesight were always more numerous than trolls without eyes.

Thus trolls did not develop eyes to survive in the surface world, they had them from the very beginning.

IMHO, "Skulls and Evolution" is God Learner evolutionary stuff, implying vast misunderstandings and simplifications. Even more than with theists in general, the God Learners must have faced immense problems when trying to understand and classify species as ancient and varied as Uz.

Uz Lore combines excerpts from Jonstown Library, and could be very flawed. More than that, it could be very hard to understand and agree to an Orlanthi Barbarian, himself living in a mythical world without evolutionary explanation models. IMHO, the data is hardly agreed on in Glorantha.

As to darksense I have the following definition in Trollpak (book of Uz, p. 7):
"Darksense is a form of sonar which a troll produces through the vibration of membranes in his nose and throat." .... "The darksense ability of a Mistress race is to a dark troll's as an eagle sight's to a human's."

In fact, sarksense is very similar to the echolocation of bats (which are also color-blind) but I suppose it isn't exactly the same as darksense (else it wouldn't have been called that).

Here we encounter the "matter of taste". Trollpak was written in the '80s, and our understanding of Glorantha has vastly developed since.

IIRC, the idea that darksense needs to be described as some sort of a parallel to an Earth phenomenon (like the bat or dolphin sonars) was met with a far more interesting idea: that darksense is connected to the element of Darkness, to the Darkness rune. As Greg has stated, all elements are present in everything. Thus darksense would be a way to sense the presence & emanation of Darkness from things in the world. It is fundamentally different from sonar.

I like this mythical explanation as a more Gloranthan "truth". However, I do agree that sonar is a much easier way to explain things, and more preferable if one doesn't want to get boggled with Gloranthan mythical esotery.

Or, what duncan_disorderly wrote:

actually, this is a pretty good example of the problem. Trolls use Darksense. We know that Mistress Race Trolls have better Darksense than Dark Trolls, and Dark Trolls have better Darksense than Trollkin. Sandy equated this to Sonar, which is a "Real World"/"Scientific" explanation, which might lead us away from understanding the link between Darksense and the link between the User and the Darkness Rune.

It is a useful analogy, but isn't necessarily the whole story.

Our Gloranthas Will Vary.

-Ilkka

 

[The King]

I agree with you on some points, Ilkka, because I recognize I may be wrong sometimes and I extrapolated way too much, but it is then fair to suppose that elfsense (know as the Song of Aldrya) is linked in a similar manner to the plant rune.
Then how useful is this sense to an Aldryami which doesn't live among plants anymore?

But as you hint in your last sentence, I think it's easier for everyone to GM his Glorantha as he wishes. Of course it would have been far better if darksense had been definied with one more sentence in the MRQ guide to the trolls as to whether the sense functions in daylight or not.

 

[Ilkka]

[...] but it is then fair to suppose that elfsense (know as the Song of Aldrya) is linked in a similar manner to the plant rune. Then how useful is this sense to an Aldryami which doesn't live among plants anymore?

Fair or not, I believe following this line of thought would be very interesting. Perhaps in another thread?

Of course it would have been far better if darksense had been definied with one more sentence in the MRQ guide to the trolls as to whether the sense functions in daylight or not.

Yes, such information would have been essential when playing meetings with the Dark Men.

IMHO, darksense does function in ordinary daylight. In the celestial world things might be different, though, because Darkness is mythically very weak there. Literally, there might be no Darkness to sense there - in a similar manner as eyes would be useless in the Darkness of primal Hell, in that place which is Subere and utterly devoid of Light/Fire.

You could devise a simple table to represent the changing utility of darksense in relation to the presence of Light/Fire. For example:

Mythical Light/Fire ----> useless
Clear/Bright day ------> x 0,25
Ordinary day ----------> x 0,5 (RQ spell Lightwall)
Cloudy day ------------> x 0,75
Dusk/dawn ------------> x 0,8...0,9
Ordinary night ---------> x 1,0
Dark night -------------> x 1,25
Deep underground ----> x 1,5 (RQ spell Darkwall)
Mythical Darkness ----> x 2,0

For example, Tagtaz the Troll, with Darksense/Scan 48%, would only have Darksense/Scan 24% in full daylight or spell-light. On the other hand, in his deep underground lair, Tagzat would have Darksense/Scan 72%. If he would ever enter that part of the Underworld which is unmolested by Light/Fire, he would have Darksense/Scan 96% - he would be able to sense Darkness with divine accuracy, because he would be surrounded with divinely accurate Darkness.

In this way, trolls living on Hurtplace (surface world) would be less alert in daylight but more alert in the darkest hours of the night. Also, some regions of Glorantha infested with Darkness (e.g. Dagori Inkarth, the realm of Gore & Gash & Kyger Litor herself, and Shadow Plateau, the realm of Argan Argar) might be perpetually more dark than ordinary places; this could be represented with adding 0,25 to the Darksense multiple.

In addition, trolls who plan to face enemies of the Light/Fire tribe would need to train their eyesight or use potent Darkness magic, because otherwise they would probably be "blinded" by the brightness of their enemies.

(The other side of the coin is that beings depending on eyesight would need to train their other senses or bring sources of light or Light/Fire magic with them if they wish to see in Darkness. Just like we tend to do when burning fires & lights in darkness in order to see - it's obvious. The point is that in a world of myth, Darkness is not a simple result of lack of Light/Fire.)

IMHO, YGWV.

-Ilkka

 

[The King]

I think your table may be useful.

 

[richaje]

I am sure that if science existed on Glorantha, scientists would say that the troll curse is but a mere fairy tale invention and that trollkins and the result of the new living conditions of this race. They are clumsy because the original conditions of the race have mutated ( a good point for the kingdom of logic).

Every culture in Genertela (Genertela, not Glorantha) with contact with the trolls knows about when Nysalor/Gbaji/Osentalka cursed the trolls. Some call this the Trollkin Curse. Others - the folk of Kerofinela, Kethaela and Dara Happa - know that this was part of the great Battle of Night and Day (one of the most important and famous historical Gloranthan battles of the First Age), which their ancestors fought at. Others, like the Seshnegi or the Ralians, know what Nysalor and his enemies told them. They might well believe the curse overstated, misleading or incorrect.

But the Trollkin Curse was a historical event, as was the Battle of Night and Day of which it was a part.

Jeff

 

[The King]

I am sure that if science existed on Glorantha, scientists would say that the troll curse is but a mere fairy tale invention and that trollkins and the result of the new living conditions of this race. They are clumsy because the original conditions of the race have mutated ( a good point for the kingdom of logic).

Every culture in Genertela (Genertela, not Glorantha) with contact with the trolls knows about when Nysalor/Gbaji/Osentalka cursed the trolls. Some call this the Trollkin Curse. Others - the folk of Kerofinela, Kethaela and Dara Happa - know that this was part of the great Battle of Night and Day (one of the most important and famous historical Gloranthan battles of the First Age), which their ancestors fought at. Others, like the Seshnegi or the Ralians, know what Nysalor and his enemies told them. They might well believe the curse overstated, misleading or incorrect.

But the Trollkin Curse was a historical event, as was the Battle of Night and Day of which it was a part.

Jeff

Let's take another example: as you are probably well educated you know the story of Joan of Arc and her battles against the English host. But you also know the myth about her: among others her allegued virginity and the voice(s?) in her head telling her what to do or even the one when she did recognize the king even if he was hidden among his court to ascertain if she was really touched by grace. That's the story of the common folk.

Is this also common and proven history for scientists? Do they actually study so long to believe mere folklore myth that can't be proven? Do you also believe you were expelled from heaven because your arch-ancestress did eat an apple?

The same myth applies to Arthurian legends or many others.

What is known as the Trollkin curse is supposed to have existed in the first age. Now in the 2nd or 3rd age, how can you prove me beyond oral stories that this happened exactly like you said?

Com'on! I don't remember which Jeff you are (and I think I don't care anyway) but though it seems you have some scientific knowledge about sharks, either you failed to notice the humour contained within or you're deliberatly constricted. Is it then a dislike because you feel you're an Gloranthan elder and deserve some sort of worship from the posters of this forum?

I have then the regret to inform you that I can be as haughty as everyone. Perhaps even more.

 

[richaje]

What is known as the Trollkin curse is supposed to have existed in the first age. Now in the 2nd or 3rd age, how can you prove me beyond oral stories that this happened exactly like you said?

At this point, I have no idea what you are arguing. But there is an objective history to Glorantha - events did happen. And the Battle of Night and Day was a huge event in Glorantha where the Compromise itself was violated. For the EWF, the Orlanthi and the Dara Happans it was a huge historical event. For the trolls, it was the most awful disaster since the Bright Enemy came to Wonderhome.

Jeff

 

[Scut Farkas]

it never ceases to amaze me how some (if not most) gamers feel the need to argue ad nauseum over just about anything and furthermore have to be the most knowledgable about any given subject accompanied by always being right. it's such a slap in the face to be even slightly wrong about something or, worse, not know anything at all about it. i have seen conversations (online and at meetups) about one thing turn into a long, drawn-out argument over some detail of someone's statement about the original concept. it's nuts, but entertaining.