Enlo

Cleombrotus said:
the Kimantor Army was pretty damn scary, with their black cloaks and lead masks. And their darkness spirits and essences. And their frightening underworld powers....

Sounds good. I've been looking for a reference to a human darkness worshipping army/unit for a long while.

If you make it out to Tentacles, Greg, Loz and I will be happy to wax poetic about the Kimantor Army and the Kitori Empire.

Jeff
 
richaje said:
Rurik said:
Photo-sensative skin could explain it as well - it is sunlight that demoralizes them after all, not just any light if I recall right. It could be quite painful to them.

I've never understood the need for folk to have a modern world explanation for Gloranthan magical phenomena. Trollkin are sensitive to the light because their spirits are stunted by the Curse of Kin and too weak to withstand the Bright Enemy.

Explanations like "photo-sensitive" skin are likely to mislead you. If the EWF or the OOO or anyone else wants to have trollkin who can fight in the daylight, they will need to strengthen their darkness-spirits or give them a new magical protector or summon dehori to block out the Sun.

Well that is just one explanation, none of them are fully correct. Mythic answers are always going to be a little ambiguous and missing certain elements of mythic truth.

I always liked the combination of rational reasons Vs. mythic ones. None are never quite correct.
 
richaje said:
Husband of Great Esrola, not usually Ernalda.:)

Probably both, actually.

He was definitely the Husband of Queen Esrola, producing The Only Old One as the ruler of her lands.

He was also a Husband-Protector of Ernalda during the Darkness. Ernalda took many husband-protectors when Orlanth was away on the Lightbringer Quest (she wasn't very fussy), Argan Argar was probably the most powerful at the time because he was a Darkness God in a time of Darkness. The Heortlings don't like talking about it much as it makes them look weak. But, there are examples in older versions of RQ that accept this as a fact and I don't see any particular advantage in overturning it. After all, she also counts Yelm, Orlanth, Yelmalio, Flamal, Storm Bull, Magasta, Pamalt and Doburdun as husband-protectors, so she got about a bit.
 
soltakss said:
richaje said:
Husband of Great Esrola, not usually Ernalda.:)

Probably both, actually.

Maybe. Depends on the myth and the context. Keep in mind that there are aspects or incarnations of Ernalda that are connected with Argan Argar or other gods, while at the same time there are many more incarnations that have no such connection. Only Orlanth is acknowledged as being husband of all Ernalda's incarnations.

Making things more complicated is the fact that "husband" is often something of a mistranslation (in the Esrolia Book Greg uses "lover" more often than "husband" for divine connections).

Making things even more complicated is the fact that the God Learners often confused Esrola, Ernalda and Oria.

Jeff
 
My point is that the above explanation is more likely to be correct than a "real world" explanation. Glorantha is not governed by modern science. You can certainly use such things as a short-hand, but it will often prove unreliable and inaccurate.

I disagree, as GM, I'm always accurate. Even when I'm wrong. :)

I do hear what you are saying, but I'm not applying "modern science" to Glorantha, but merely assuming that metaphysical properties resonate thru to the physical in a concrete fashion.

Argan Argar was not Uzuz and was not really a merchant.

Well, I guess I kinda always assumed an Uz god was a troll, but I see you are right about that. He was not a merchant?

And he's actually much more powerful being than the usual RQ (or HQ) writeup gives him credit for. That's just the "merchant" mask by which many Darkness-friendly human cultures recognize him - there's a lot more to Argan Argar than just that. Greg and I will have more about that in the Esrolia Book that should be coming out later this year.

Cool.

As Lord of the Surface World, Argan Argar can certainly protect his worshipers from the Bright Enemy. He is also the master of many many many Darkness entities that haunt the Surface World.

Ah, er, um ok, I guess. . . .
 
Rasta said:
I do hear what you are saying, but I'm not applying "modern science" to Glorantha, but merely assuming that metaphysical properties resonate thru to the physical in a concrete fashion.

What I was reacting to was terms like "photosensitive eyes" or the idea that merely blindfolding a trollkin would protect it from the sun. Glorantha is a fundamentally mythological world - that's what underlies it, not gravity, photons, dna, or whatever.

Well, I guess I kinda always assumed an Uz god was a troll, but I see you are right about that. He was not a merchant?

Argan Argar has a "merchant mask" that has been extremely overemphasised in RQ cult writeups. That "merchant mask" is closely connected to the Equal Exchange of Ezkankekko and is not really the same thing as Issaries trading. The Book of Esrolia will have a short chapter on this stuff if I recall.

As Lord of the Surface World, Argan Argar can certainly protect his worshipers from the Bright Enemy. He is also the master of many many many Darkness entities that haunt the Surface World.

Ah, er, um ok, I guess. . . .[/quote]

Argan Argar is a big and important god - he ruled the world during the Darkness and in Kethaela and Kerofinela, everyone who survived the Darkness paid tribute to him (through Ezkanekko) - human, elf, dwarf, gold wheel dancer, whatever. Others even embraced the Darkness and learned powerful secrets from it.

Jeff
 
What I was reacting to was terms like "photosensitive eyes" or the idea that merely blindfolding a trollkin would protect it from the sun. Glorantha is a fundamentally mythological world - that's what underlies it, not gravity, photons, dna, or whatever.

Right gravity is a descriptive term used to describe the mechanics in Glorantha that keep things from going up.

My point here is that Glorantha is not like earth. In earth we have definite devisions between "metaphysical reality" and physical reality.

This is not the case in Glorantha. Magic exsists concretely just as the sun does. There is no clear devision. I agree that the foundation of exsistence in Glorantha is metaphysical rather than physical. Though, naturally, it would follow that the physical exsistence IN Glorantha is a direct byproduct of the metaphysical state of affairs.

Thus terms such as: photo-sensitive, gravity, logic, sonar, etc; still have meaning. They are not meant to be templates of descriptive dynamics, merely a refrence point to understand the world that is Glorantha.

Sure, you can merely say "It's just magical. There is no such thing as truth."

In the Glorantha that I run, truth is real, and consistant, it's only the perceptions that differ. The truth remains. Conversely, you would have to say that PERCEPTION IS TRUTH, and it is the "reality" which differs. Which may well be the case in Glorantha, I just can't concieve how that works.

Argan Argar has a "merchant mask" that has been extremely overemphasised in RQ cult writeups.

Indeed, at which point does a write up become official?

That "merchant mask" is closely connected to the Equal Exchange of Ezkankekko and is not really the same thing as Issaries trading. The Book of Esrolia will have a short chapter on this stuff if I recall.

Cool.

Argan Argar is a big and important god - he ruled the world during the Darkness and in Kethaela and Kerofinela, everyone who survived the Darkness paid tribute to him (through Ezkanekko) - human, elf, dwarf, gold wheel dancer, whatever. Others even embraced the Darkness and learned powerful secrets from it.

Right on.
 
Rasta said:
Sure, you can merely say "It's just magical. There is no such thing as truth."

I certainly don't believe that. However, I do not think that Newton's law of universal gravitation and so on accurately describes Gloranthan phenomena. This is not a question of truth or perception - just whether many of our modern terms to describe our world are even applicable to Gloranthan phenomena.

Just a little example: Glorantha is flat and the Gloranthan Sky is semi-spherical dome. Really and truly.

Rasta said:
Indeed, at which point does a write up become official?

What do you mean by official? Is there an Argan Argar cult that more or less looks as described in the Heroquest Book or in the old RQ 3 Troll Cults Book? Yeah, there certainly is. Are those descriptions sometimes misleading (because they give the impression that the described cults are the most important, most common, or most significant AA cults)? Yeah, sometimes they are.

Jeff
 
I certainly don't believe that. However, I do not think that Newton's law of universal gravitation and so on accurately describes Gloranthan phenomena. This is not a question of truth or perception - just whether many of our modern terms to describe our world are even applicable to Gloranthan phenomena.

Just a little example: Glorantha is flat and the Gloranthan Sky is semi-spherical dome. Really and truly.

Oh, I catch your meaning. I misunderstood. Good point. I agree, that it is not applicable in a clear cut fashion. Just abandoning descriptive words altogether though, because of a metaphysical foundation strips much of the detail that can go into a game, IMO.

If you've got another term to describe why the light of Yelm is demoralizing towards Enlo, I'm all ears.

What do you mean by official?

Like, it's official that Aldryami worship Aldrya.

Is there an Argan Argar cult that more or less looks as described in the Heroquest Book or in the old RQ 3 Troll Cults Book? Yeah, there certainly is. Are those descriptions sometimes misleading (because they give the impression that the described cults are the most important, most common, or most significant AA cults)? Yeah, sometimes they are.

I understand this, I just have not read any other write up's for AA other than Uz.
 
Rasta said:
If you've got another term to describe why the light of Yelm is demoralizing towards Enlo, I'm all ears.

It is because the pathetic and cursed trollkin are just too weak to withstand the Bright Enemy. A God Learner might hyphothesize that this is because they are weak intrusions of Darkness into this world - too weak to withstand the source of Light. Or perhaps it is because of the Curse of Gbaji - they cannot help but fear the Light of Illumination.

Jeff
 
It is because the pathetic and cursed trollkin are just too weak to withstand the Bright Enemy. A God Learner might hyphothesize that this is because they are weak intrusions of Darkness into this world - too weak to withstand the source of Light. Or perhaps it is because of the Curse of Gbaji - they cannot help but fear the Light of Illumination.

Well, that's not a term, that's a justification. So to sum this up: magic = good, practical application = bad. Got it.
 
Wow, I never thought using the word 'photosensitive' would cause a stir!

I'd like to add a couple of things here. When I used photosensitivity I was thinking skin, not eyes (else the blindfold trick would work), and that sunlight causes an adverse reaction. It was an answer to the op's question as to why trollkin can't just close their eyes and use their darksense.

Then I figured 'hey, we got a word for that - 'photo-sensitivity' and used it. It wasn't necessarily used with the intent it be taken that it had to mean an allergic reaction to UV rays due to a skin pigmentation problem, it could be caused by the fact that enlo are creatures of darkness and the sun hurts them.

That all out of the way, I think it is just fine for some people to want more 'reality' in their game than others. Just like some people like RQ better than HQ for gaming in Glorantha or vice versa - people want different experiences from the game world. I doubt any two peoples visions are the same.

From the start, back in the Chaosium days, I was first drawn to Glorantha by the strong mythology, which always had parallels to Earth's own myths. A flat world (I know, cube really), the sun travelling across the sky every day and back at night through the underworld, etc. all are beliefs that have been held at some point somewhere in our history. I'm not saying that Glorantha really is round and revolves around the sun (though I imagine the Dara Happans might not be displeased with such an explanation), but that Glorantha's myths 'fit' with our world's reality as we know it (as opposed to say a sun that rises straight up from a hole in the ground and then descends straight down again at night). I imagine that once upon a time on earth, an allergy to the sun might have been explained somehow by an association to darkmess or night spirits.

So I don't see anything wrong with Rasta wanting explanations for why trollkin are demoralized by sunlight, or for considering 'real world' explanations if he wants to.
 
Rasta said:
It is because the pathetic and cursed trollkin are just too weak to withstand the Bright Enemy. A God Learner might hyphothesize that this is because they are weak intrusions of Darkness into this world - too weak to withstand the source of Light. Or perhaps it is because of the Curse of Gbaji - they cannot help but fear the Light of Illumination.

Well, that's not a term, that's a justification. So to sum this up: magic = good, practical application = bad. Got it.

Perhaps I am not understanding your point. The explanation why the trollkin are demoralized by the sun is simply that they are too weak to withstand the light of Sun.

Jeff
 
Perhaps I am not understanding your point. The explanation why the trollkin are demoralized by the sun is simply that they are too weak to withstand the light of Sun.

Well, you were saying that we should not use terms like photo-sensitivity sence this is Glorantha and not Earth. Earth is dictated by science, thus thoes terms can't apply.

So I asked if you had another term for the process, to which you gave a justification instead of the term.

I know no such term exsists, just as there is no term in glorantha to describe gravity.

My point is that the use of such terms is valid, as they are merely conventions to describe simular mechanics.

Do you rip on people if they use the term Sun in Gloranthan context? We all know that the Sun doesn't exsist in Glorantha, but it is really the god Yelm.

I know that Enlo are cursed, and weaker than Uz. Also, surprisingly, I know that they are demorilized by daylight. This is my premise. Then I try to quantify these dynamics into a "real world" explaination for my own personal refrence and my own satisfaction of fleshing out the world of Glorantha into greater detail.
 
Rasta said:
Well, you were saying that we should not use terms like photo-sensitivity sence this is Glorantha and not Earth. Earth is dictated by science, thus thoes terms can't apply. So I asked if you had another term for the process, to which you gave a justification instead of the term.

Sorry, didn't realize you wanted a specialized term to explain the trollkin weakness to light - that is something other than "the trollkin weakness to light".

Rasta said:
I know no such term exsists, just as there is no term in glorantha to describe gravity.

Sure there is: "weight". BTW, I love the explanation of gravitation of the real world Vaisheshika school: "Weight causes falling; it is imperceptible and known by inference." Certainly a very Gloranthan answer!

Rasta said:
Do you rip on people if they use the term Sun in Gloranthan context? We all know that the Sun doesn't exsist in Glorantha, but it is really the god Yelm.

Nonsense. The Heortlings swear that it is the god Elmal, an avowed enemy of Emperor Yelm. The God Learners have written copious texts that state that it is the source of the Fire Rune and that only foolish pagans personalize that Rune as Ehilm. I've even heard a philosopher in Nochet claim that all three were true!

Rasta said:
I know that Enlo are cursed, and weaker than Uz. Also, surprisingly, I know that they are demorilized by daylight. This is my premise. Then I try to quantify these dynamics into a "real world" explaination for my own personal refrence and my own satisfaction of fleshing out the world of Glorantha into greater detail.

Go for it. My only caveat is "real world" explanations can be misleading in Glorantha. If a God Learner was going to try to understand the phenomena, they'd likely look at the Runic associations and power of the Enlo - why are they different from their Uz kin?

Jeff
 
Sorry, didn't realize you wanted a specialized term to explain the trollkin weakness to light - that is something other than "the trollkin weakness to light".

Now you know. I forgive you. :wink:

Sure there is: "weight". BTW, I love the explanation of gravitation of the real world Vaisheshika school: "Weight causes falling; it is imperceptible and known by inference." Certainly a very Gloranthan answer!

Indeed. Does that mean that characters with wings lose their "weight" when they fly?

Nonsense. The Heortlings swear that it is the god Elmal, an avowed enemy of Emperor Yelm. The God Learners have written copious texts that state that it is the source of the Fire Rune and that only foolish pagans personalize that Rune as Ehilm. I've even heard a philosopher in Nochet claim that all three were true!

Well, obviously Heortlings don't know jack. :)

Go for it. My only caveat is "real world" explanations can be misleading in Glorantha.

As can Gloranthan explanations be misleading in Glorantha. . . .

If a God Learner was going to try to understand the phenomena, they'd likely look at the Runic associations and power of the Enlo - why are they different from their Uz kin?

Perhaps. I am not a God Learner.
 
Rasta said:
Indeed. Does that mean that characters with wings lose their "weight" when they fly?

Depends on who you ask. For example, the Heortlings claim the Wind Children fly using their breath (their Air soul - which is how the Orlanthi can fly) and their wings help them fly, but aren't the primary source of their flying ability.

The Wind Children think such questions are ridiculous. They have wings and can fly because they are the kin of the Air spirits and gods. Only the God Learners and their imitators are much interested in such materialist questions.

Nonsense. The Heortlings swear that it is the god Elmal, an avowed enemy of Emperor Yelm. The God Learners have written copious texts that state that it is the source of the Fire Rune and that only foolish pagans personalize that Rune as Ehilm. I've even heard a philosopher in Nochet claim that all three were true!

Rasta said:
Well, obviously Heortlings don't know jack. :)

You going to tell them that? BTW, you know that the Orlanthi "Evil Emperor" is not always named Yelm? In Ralios there are several myths identifying him with Malkion or Mostal - not with Yelm at all.

Go for it. My only caveat is "real world" explanations can be misleading in Glorantha.

Rasta said:
As can Gloranthan explanations be misleading in Glorantha. . . .

Sometimes they are even deliberately misleading. But they are the best way to flesh out the world - figure out how a Gloranthan would answer your question. That's why IMO "King of Sartar" and its progeny are far far far better books for understanding Glorantha - and how to play a game in Glorantha - than all the rule books put together.

If a God Learner was going to try to understand the phenomena, they'd likely look at the Runic associations and power of the Enlo - why are they different from their Uz kin?

Rasta said:
Perhaps. I am not a God Learner.

Hmmmm.

Jeff
 
Rasta said:
I'm sorry if this has been discussed before, but given that Enlo use darksence as their primary means of perception, why are they demorilized in daylight?
Essentially the reason is a scientifical one.
Trolls can see badly with their eyes but like all hunters they need a association of all their senses (hear, smell, etc.) to be able to hunt without penalty.
It is like a human: to walk, one need legs (really?), the sense of touching and the sense of balance (which is located in the inner ear, proving thus that balance depends on the hearing sense) and possibly the sense of sight. if you're deprived of only one of these you'll have problem to walk (I had an accident years ago with a concussion as a result and I can attest how diffucult it is).

So, back to the troll: darksense only functions in darkness.
It is the same as if you would loose one of your five senses all of a sudden. You would probably panick and find this situation very unpleasant.
 
The King said:
So, back to the troll: darksense only functions in darkness. It is the same as if you would loose one of your five senses all of a sudden. You would probably panick and find this situation very unpleasant.

That's news to me (and probably to Greg and Sandy as well). I just rechecked my Uz Lore, Elder Secrets, Book of Uz, and Anaxial's Roster and none of them even hint that darksense only works in darkness. Anaxial's Roster gives all trolls a handicap when exposed to daylight (-5 for uz, -10 for enlo).

Jeff
 
It is true that Glorantha is a magical place built on myth and legend.

It is also true that the world that the player characters inhabit is also the Mundane World. Not everything is due to magic. There are mundane reasons why certain things happen.
'Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.'

I always liked this quote:
"But it rains so hard down there it makes your head bleed"
"So some sort of HAT is in order then?"

Taking the rain example, if it raining then you have a choice. You can wear some water-proof rain clothes, cloaks, hats, etc., or you can just stay inside, or you could cast a spell, or you could pray to Heler to stop the rain, or you could enter the Hero World and strengthen Elmal over Heler.

The mundane way is possibly the easiest to do but may be not the most effective.

This is the same for the enlo [dragging this back on topic]. Wrapping black cloth around it's eyes may help or a heavy hood. The fact you have cared enough to show this weak creature some sort of compassion may be enough to strengthen it s resolve.
Other mundane methods may work somewhat as well. Magical ways would work better, simple charms, cloaking them with spirits of darkness or night or even spells of strength or courage.

However a HeroQuest to remove The Curse would be the most effective way though there is still no guarantee the current enlo would not be still affected.

So some mundane ways can work, warriors wear armour for example instead of just using magic and kill with spear and sword instead of curse or spell.
 
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