CosmicGamer
Mongoose
This is a poll and discussion for your opinion as to engineering having specialties or not.
Engineering skill specialties
- Thread starter CosmicGamer
- Start date
ShawnDriscoll
Cosmic Mongoose
I'm all for Engineering as defined in the MgT2 playtest released Dec. 4th.
VenomousFiligree
Mongoose
As an example of the divisions on a S/M you have Marine Engineers and Weapon Engineers. The Marine Engineers are split into Propulsion and Auxiliary and both of these are dived into Mechanical and Electrical. The Weapon Engineers are split into Sensors, Fire Control, Communications and Ordnance.
Engineering is a vast field, so I think it's only fair to split the skill
Engineering is a vast field, so I think it's only fair to split the skill
I believe they should be consolidated, as the mode for skills is to stream line them in to broader structures. Look at how the skills have been changed, Battledress has been rolled into VaccSuit, Gun Combat has only two specialties Slug and energy, Zero-G is now part of Athletics Dex.
So as such a 4 part engineering skill is really redundant in light of the other changes.
So as such a 4 part engineering skill is really redundant in light of the other changes.
Rikki Tikki Traveller
Cosmic Mongoose
What if we go REALLY different than MGT1, but more like CT:
Engineer (Spacecraft)
Engineer (Planetary)
I am an engineer in real life, and I know how different a Civil Engineer is from an Electrical Engineer is from a Nuclear Engineer; but I don't see how the game benefits from having all those breakdowns.
The PURPOSE of the Engineer skill is to have someone who can fix the ship when it breaks, or is broken for you. Other types of Engineering are subsumed into the Profession skill (If I read the rules right. You could even argue that Engineer is really Profession(Spaceship Repair).
The actual Engineer skill is more likely a combination of Mechanic and Electrician. ENGINEER is really a DESIGN skill, not an operations skill, but that is not how Traveller has used it.
Engineer (Spacecraft)
Engineer (Planetary)
I am an engineer in real life, and I know how different a Civil Engineer is from an Electrical Engineer is from a Nuclear Engineer; but I don't see how the game benefits from having all those breakdowns.
The PURPOSE of the Engineer skill is to have someone who can fix the ship when it breaks, or is broken for you. Other types of Engineering are subsumed into the Profession skill (If I read the rules right. You could even argue that Engineer is really Profession(Spaceship Repair).
The actual Engineer skill is more likely a combination of Mechanic and Electrician. ENGINEER is really a DESIGN skill, not an operations skill, but that is not how Traveller has used it.
-Daniel-
Emperor Mongoose
I find in our culture we often use the word engineer to cover over a less tasteful word. Sanitation Engineer = Trash Man or Maintenance Engineer = Handyman are examples. So it is no wonder that some folks would struggle to understand the word's meaning. :wink:Infojunky said:
banzaibill
Mongoose
I think a hybrid of the two ideas might make some sense. Perhaps skills could be common up to level 2, and then specialize. In this case, perhaps you get Engineer 1, and Engineer 2, but after that you have to specialize into Engineer 3 (Jump Drive), etc.
A similar approach would work with Drive, Electronics, Art, Flyer, Gun Combat and others. If Skill 2 is too much, then perhaps Skill 1 would work.
We already have this in concept with the Skill 0 idea, but that seem limiting. An engineer, for instance, would likely have a number of base level common qualifications before specialization took place.
Alternatively, make a codified transference of skills at a lower level, with a cap. For instance, if you get Skill 2 (J-Drive), perhaps you automatically get Skill 1 in everything else, but put a cap on Level 1.
The idea is not to make "free skills", but to allow well-rounded characters, although, I suppose Jack of all Trades is a good start.
A similar approach would work with Drive, Electronics, Art, Flyer, Gun Combat and others. If Skill 2 is too much, then perhaps Skill 1 would work.
We already have this in concept with the Skill 0 idea, but that seem limiting. An engineer, for instance, would likely have a number of base level common qualifications before specialization took place.
Alternatively, make a codified transference of skills at a lower level, with a cap. For instance, if you get Skill 2 (J-Drive), perhaps you automatically get Skill 1 in everything else, but put a cap on Level 1.
The idea is not to make "free skills", but to allow well-rounded characters, although, I suppose Jack of all Trades is a good start.
CosmicGamer
Mongoose
The voting is pretty even at this point.
First off I'd like to address concepts that totally alter the way the specialties work. I feel such a concept should be uniform across all skills with specialties and would cause too much confusion if specialties for different skill were to be ruled and handled in multiple ways. In my opinion, an overall change to how all skills with specialties is handled is best served by it's own thread.
Personally, I liked the insight Infojunky provided in this post:
The folks mentioned, and others, have made some good points. As part of the discussion, I'd like to consolidate some points made, give my thoughts, and suggest that perhaps there is a middle ground?
Engineer in real life is a vast field. Engineer in Traveller is much more specific.
operate and maintain
So a Traveller Engineer is not trained and skilled in engineering bridges and dams and so on.
Something brought up elsewhere is the fact that there isn't enough Engineering skill to go around. The Chargen and the Engineering skill specialties as is, seam to be set up for a big ship universe where there are multiple engineers on a ship with their specializations. The small trader Engineer seams to be lacking, not well rounded enough, relying on level 0 in some specialties. For me, this is the main reason for not liking the Engineering specialties as is.
Perhaps an option for this poll should be reducing the number of specialties. I'd like to point out the Mechanic skill where it states
So now we are down to M-Drive, J-Drive, and Power. Could these be combined into one spacecraft/vehicle engineer skill without any specialties? Still think there should be 3 specialties? Maybe mechanic can do a M-drive leaving J-Drive and Power for a single Engineer skill. Maybe an Engineer is J and M drives the mechanic is the rest? Just spitballing some ideas.
Last, not sure if I should bring it up here, but it is somewhat related as I have pointed out the relationship between the Engineer and Mechanic skill. A Traveller Engineer is not some pen and paper, behind a desk Design engineer. They can turn a wrench and maintain and repair the M-drive, J-drive, and so on. Filters changed, injectors cleaned, broke a hose... So who needs a mechanic? Shouldn't an Engineer be capable of doing the mechanics job of repairing all the basic equipment too? In a way, a mechanic is maybe just a level 0 Engineer?
Not sure what to do with my thoughts though because they fit the CT task system more than the current system. An engineer 0 can do general maintenance and everyday operation, level 1 can do repairs, level 2 knows enough to make changes, jury rig systems, tweak the system to get temporary boost... Note that I'm going to create a new thread for discussing the mechanic skill as possibly being redundant.
First off I'd like to address concepts that totally alter the way the specialties work. I feel such a concept should be uniform across all skills with specialties and would cause too much confusion if specialties for different skill were to be ruled and handled in multiple ways. In my opinion, an overall change to how all skills with specialties is handled is best served by it's own thread.
Personally, I liked the insight Infojunky provided in this post:
However I also understand the concerns of people like Rikki Tikki Traveller and VenomousFiligree when they point out "Engineering is a vast field"Infojunky said:
The folks mentioned, and others, have made some good points. As part of the discussion, I'd like to consolidate some points made, give my thoughts, and suggest that perhaps there is a middle ground?
Engineer in real life is a vast field. Engineer in Traveller is much more specific.
spacecraft and advanced vehiclesPage 64 said:
operate and maintain
So a Traveller Engineer is not trained and skilled in engineering bridges and dams and so on.
Something brought up elsewhere is the fact that there isn't enough Engineering skill to go around. The Chargen and the Engineering skill specialties as is, seam to be set up for a big ship universe where there are multiple engineers on a ship with their specializations. The small trader Engineer seams to be lacking, not well rounded enough, relying on level 0 in some specialties. For me, this is the main reason for not liking the Engineering specialties as is.
Perhaps an option for this poll should be reducing the number of specialties. I'd like to point out the Mechanic skill where it states
I'd like to suggest that some Engineering specialties could be covered by the Mechanic skill. I think the Life Support specialty which covers things like oxygen generators, heating, lighting and such could be covered by the Mechanic skill instead.page 67 said:
So now we are down to M-Drive, J-Drive, and Power. Could these be combined into one spacecraft/vehicle engineer skill without any specialties? Still think there should be 3 specialties? Maybe mechanic can do a M-drive leaving J-Drive and Power for a single Engineer skill. Maybe an Engineer is J and M drives the mechanic is the rest? Just spitballing some ideas.
Last, not sure if I should bring it up here, but it is somewhat related as I have pointed out the relationship between the Engineer and Mechanic skill. A Traveller Engineer is not some pen and paper, behind a desk Design engineer. They can turn a wrench and maintain and repair the M-drive, J-drive, and so on. Filters changed, injectors cleaned, broke a hose... So who needs a mechanic? Shouldn't an Engineer be capable of doing the mechanics job of repairing all the basic equipment too? In a way, a mechanic is maybe just a level 0 Engineer?
Not sure what to do with my thoughts though because they fit the CT task system more than the current system. An engineer 0 can do general maintenance and everyday operation, level 1 can do repairs, level 2 knows enough to make changes, jury rig systems, tweak the system to get temporary boost... Note that I'm going to create a new thread for discussing the mechanic skill as possibly being redundant.
-Daniel-
Emperor Mongoose
It would have been interesting to see what would have happened if the poll had offered a third alternative. Consolidate the specialties but not eliminate them all. As it stands now the poll is an all or nothing breakdown.
I know I like the idea of an Engineering (Ship Drive Systems) specialty and an Engineer (Ship Support Systems). The Drives consolidate down to the Drive Skill and the Life Support and Power consolidate down to the "Support" skill. Now it only requires two specialties rather than four. This also allows the GM to offer an Engineer (Planet Side) or some such if their game needs a traditional engineer/builder.
I know I like the idea of an Engineering (Ship Drive Systems) specialty and an Engineer (Ship Support Systems). The Drives consolidate down to the Drive Skill and the Life Support and Power consolidate down to the "Support" skill. Now it only requires two specialties rather than four. This also allows the GM to offer an Engineer (Planet Side) or some such if their game needs a traditional engineer/builder.
Rikki Tikki Traveller
Cosmic Mongoose
In the current system, what skill would be used to fix the broken Gravity Plate?
What skill is used to fix the broken Thruster Plate in the M-drive?
What skill is used to fix the broken thermostat in the Captain's stateroom?
What skill is used to fix the broken coffee maker in the Gunner's turret?
What skill is used to fix the faulty wiring behind the bulkhead in Stateroom #3?
What skill is used to fix the damaged flux capacitor in the Jump Drive?
What skill is used to change the algae filters in the Oxygen Generator?
What skill is used to fix the squeeky chair on the bridge?
What skill is used to fix the damaged control console on the bridge (non-specific function)?
What skill is used to fix the damaged magnetic coupler in the fusion bottle?
Answering these kinds of questions will help decide what specialties we really need.
From a Character Creation point of view... Engineer is REALLY rare and so should have fewer specialties. Even within the Scouts and Navy, where that skill should be used a lot, it is hard to roll, so very hard to get a good level in more than one specialty.
Engineer is in the Advanced Education table of the Army.
Engineer is in the Worker specialty of the Citizen Specialty table.
Engineer is in the Service Skills of the Marines.
Engineer is in the Merchant Marine and Advanced Education tables of the Merchants (but not the free trader???).
Engineer is in the Advanced Education and Engineer/Gunner tables in the Navy (twice in the Eng/Gun table, although Gunner only shows up once???)
Engineer is in the Pirate Specialty of the Rogues.
Engineer is in teh Scientist and Advanced Education tables of the Scholar.
Engineer is in the Explorer specialty of the Scouts (ONLY! Should be a Service Skill)
Personally, I think Engineer should be an Advanced Education skill for everyone but Navy and Scout. It should be a Service Skill in the Scouts as all branches need this skill and should be in the Engineer/Gunner specialty in the Navy.
What skill is used to fix the broken Thruster Plate in the M-drive?
What skill is used to fix the broken thermostat in the Captain's stateroom?
What skill is used to fix the broken coffee maker in the Gunner's turret?
What skill is used to fix the faulty wiring behind the bulkhead in Stateroom #3?
What skill is used to fix the damaged flux capacitor in the Jump Drive?
What skill is used to change the algae filters in the Oxygen Generator?
What skill is used to fix the squeeky chair on the bridge?
What skill is used to fix the damaged control console on the bridge (non-specific function)?
What skill is used to fix the damaged magnetic coupler in the fusion bottle?
Answering these kinds of questions will help decide what specialties we really need.
From a Character Creation point of view... Engineer is REALLY rare and so should have fewer specialties. Even within the Scouts and Navy, where that skill should be used a lot, it is hard to roll, so very hard to get a good level in more than one specialty.
Engineer is in the Advanced Education table of the Army.
Engineer is in the Worker specialty of the Citizen Specialty table.
Engineer is in the Service Skills of the Marines.
Engineer is in the Merchant Marine and Advanced Education tables of the Merchants (but not the free trader???).
Engineer is in the Advanced Education and Engineer/Gunner tables in the Navy (twice in the Eng/Gun table, although Gunner only shows up once???)
Engineer is in the Pirate Specialty of the Rogues.
Engineer is in teh Scientist and Advanced Education tables of the Scholar.
Engineer is in the Explorer specialty of the Scouts (ONLY! Should be a Service Skill)
Personally, I think Engineer should be an Advanced Education skill for everyone but Navy and Scout. It should be a Service Skill in the Scouts as all branches need this skill and should be in the Engineer/Gunner specialty in the Navy.
-Daniel-
Emperor Mongoose
Ok, based on the three options I was thinking of here would be my answers. 
By having the skill set broken down to a wider range within a single specialization, it becomes easier to answer the questions.
But of course this is all my opinion and suggested smaller breakdown for Engineer.
Rikki Tikki Traveller said:In the current system, what skill would be used to fix the broken Gravity Plate? Engineer (Ship Support Systems)
What skill is used to fix the broken Thruster Plate in the M-drive? Engineer (Ship Drive Systems)
What skill is used to fix the broken thermostat in the Captain's stateroom? Engineer (Ship Support Systems)
What skill is used to fix the broken coffee maker in the Gunner's turret? None, they just need to buy a new one.
What skill is used to fix the faulty wiring behind the bulkhead in Stateroom #3? Engineer (Ship Support Systems)
What skill is used to fix the damaged flux capacitor in the Jump Drive? Engineer (Ship Drive Systems)
What skill is used to change the algae filters in the Oxygen Generator? Engineer (Ship Support Systems)
What skill is used to fix the squeeky chair on the bridge? Engineer (Mechanic)
What skill is used to fix the damaged control console on the bridge (non-specific function)? Engineer (Ship Support Systems)
What skill is used to fix the damaged magnetic coupler in the fusion bottle? Engineer (Ship Support Systems)
By having the skill set broken down to a wider range within a single specialization, it becomes easier to answer the questions.
But of course this is all my opinion and suggested smaller breakdown for Engineer.
Rikki Tikki Traveller
Cosmic Mongoose
OK, I appreciate the answers, but let me provide some counter comments:
The Grav Plate exists on all Grav Vehicles, not just on the ship.
The Captains Thermostat is the same as the thermostat in every house and apartment on the planet.
Coffee Makers are everywhere, not just on spacecraft. (Gunners use Kuerig models, which are NOT disposable
)
Faulty wiring exists in every building and vehicle ever made.
Algae filters are used in every habitat dome in Charted Space.
Control Consoles are used in most offices.
Magnetic Couplers and Fusion Bottles are on a lot of the higher tech vehicles, and even some large buildings have their own power supply.
My point is that you have forced common (relatively) items to be fixed using a Spacecraft specific skill and vice versa. Many of the things that are on a spaceship are in a lot of other places.
I don't know that I have an answer here, I am trying to work through the logic of what makes sense between the Electronics, Mechanic and Engineer skills and any Specialties.
The Grav Plate exists on all Grav Vehicles, not just on the ship.
The Captains Thermostat is the same as the thermostat in every house and apartment on the planet.
Coffee Makers are everywhere, not just on spacecraft. (Gunners use Kuerig models, which are NOT disposable
)Faulty wiring exists in every building and vehicle ever made.
Algae filters are used in every habitat dome in Charted Space.
Control Consoles are used in most offices.
Magnetic Couplers and Fusion Bottles are on a lot of the higher tech vehicles, and even some large buildings have their own power supply.
My point is that you have forced common (relatively) items to be fixed using a Spacecraft specific skill and vice versa. Many of the things that are on a spaceship are in a lot of other places.
I don't know that I have an answer here, I am trying to work through the logic of what makes sense between the Electronics, Mechanic and Engineer skills and any Specialties.
grauenwolf
Banded Mongoose
Engineer needs specialties, just not these.
Maybe...
Propulsion Systems (jump, grav)
Electronics
Civil (buildings)
Mechanical
Maybe...
Propulsion Systems (jump, grav)
Electronics
Civil (buildings)
Mechanical
