Empty Jump Hex Solutions: comments critiques and rants

Ah well, thought I'd ask.

While not an exact quote, you have been declaring this topic dead, finished and incomprehensible/uneeded since the beginning. Why such involvement if so?

Captain out (on that request, anyhoo)
 
mechascorpio said:
Glad to see those New Year's Resolutions at work.

Thanks ! Workin on it, anyway.
Nonetheless, thanks for the noodge....and Happy new years to you too.

Edit: Oh hey ! You're the guy who hosts the translation of the mothra vs Godzilla boardgame !

You've helped me waste a fair amount of time, you fiend ! Thanks !
 
captainjack23 said:
Thanks ! Workin on it, anyway.

I kid. It would have helped if I'd actually remembered to add a :wink:

Edit: Oh hey ! You're the guy who hosts the translation of the mothra vs Godzilla boardgame !

You've helped me waste a fair amount of time, you fiend ! Thanks !

So you're the one guy who downloaded that! Again, I kid. I'm stunned sometimes how many people do download it, considering it's nearly impossible to find the actual game. I've really got to give the Bandai Ultraman game the same (or better) treatment, but translating Japanese wargame rules is really intense and time consuming. Not nearly as much as arguing Traveller canon, but tough nonetheless. :wink: <---- there it is
 
it's more that it's a dead horse that has been flogged so much that it's nothing but a red smear on the floor of a crater than wasn't there before.... that then got flogged again. I find it hard to believe that anyone here isn't tired of discussing (or arguing about, or reading about) this.

183 replies, and 3600 views on this thread alone suggest otherwise. Granted, half of them are probably OT arguments about (essentially) the contents of Marc's laundry list, and half the views are from people watching the freak show. And while I appreciate your critique, your suggestions, and your concern about the sanity of the list, I think you are taking on a bit more responsibility for my posts than necessary. I'll keep posting as I come up with questions on the matter. Since you feel its such a dead issue, can you just ignore it ? Or report it and move on ?

That's pretty much the last I have to say on that issue.
 
mechascorpio said:
captainjack23 said:
Thanks ! Workin on it, anyway.

I kid. It would have helped if I'd actually remembered to add a :wink:

Edit: Oh hey ! You're the guy who hosts the translation of the mothra vs Godzilla boardgame !

You've helped me waste a fair amount of time, you fiend ! Thanks !

So you're the one guy who downloaded that!

Yes, that was me....and, i have to admit, over 200 other downloaders, using various spoof accounts, sock puppets, and groucho glasses while online. Occasionally I hide behind the monitor and sneak up on the link so it won't be obvious it is me.....

I just like it so much.

Well, given that I haven't played it per se...but I have stolen quite a few bits and filed off the serial numbers for my local monster rampage games (generally played with Bandi (tm) monsters, so its all okay..;) )
 
Some more thoughts: EHJ (or lack thereof) as a means of social control.

One of the things I got thinking about was what abut the vilani would make this aversion to EHJs -and thanks for the suggestions from the thread. Two main ones stand out: a Hindenburg event followed by an imperial rescript; an excessive focus on the risk/cost issue. While both of these are really good, and work together, the last piece for me is this. Given that the information about EHJ exists, those are just proscriptions -ie, we know we can do it, we just won't. So, then, given the risks of the later Terran wars, and the brilliant tactics of the third, why wouldnt the Vilanii, in extremis, or at least one vilanii (such as the petty emperor of the 3rd war) break ranks and use and EHJ to zap terra.

And if they were known of, even as an ancient folly, presumably the terrans knew that they existed by that time. And so, given that we know that they used J3 routes later with J3 to drygulch the Vilanii, why not risk one EHJ to get exactly the same effect ? And the stakes were MUCH higher for Terra.

So again. in extremis, why not ? The key is that the vilanii were obsessive archivers; so all else being equal, lots of unused technology probably exists-unless it was supressed.

So if the V actively suppressed the tech of EHJs (and this includes putting plausible lies into the record) the terrans might not have discovered it until well after it was an issue.

But why suppress it ? Answer: the same reason they fought the consolidation wars. Control of space. Control of the empire. Control of communication.

Assume that the Vilanii , as they were engineering their entire society for consistency and stability also suppressed the knowledge that one could cross the gaps without a J2 drive, so as to retain ultimate control of trade and communications- the J2 was a very closely controlled monopoly, but it was bound to spread. So, the vilanii build in a layer of obfuscation to limit its effectiveness to any....improper use, such as rebellion or even....independent trade. So.... Astronomy could be shaped and limited to prevent the issue being discussed;( Jump research was obviously suppressed already); the history of exploration similarly rewritten fictional jump stations are recorded, brown dwarves invented...Cost benefit analyses are produced to validate the new reality, a Hindenburg event is written into history, all to buttress the idea that an EHJ is either impossible or far too risky.

The secret is only known at the highest levels, and as time passes becomes more and more obscure; not lost, but possibly known only to the beureaux heads and the emperor. We know that the core paid little attention to the rim until the end -they may never have felt that the threat (probably vastly overblown, along with the resistance to breaking tradition )was worth letting the cat out of the bag. And so.......they lose. The Terrans eventually (once they have access to the vilani archives and archivists) figure out the fiddle, and voila ! Even explains where the vilani waystations went, and how they discovered brown dwarves whenever they neded the. They lied. To themselves, and everyone else. And it worked. brilliantly. Until they lost.

Well. That was fun. Now, lightspeed rocks and jump torpedo weapons invented by Aslan females in sensible shoes.
 
I like the idea, and it makes a pretty good story. :D

And it reminds me somewhat of Chinese history. China once had the by
far biggest and most modern fleet in the world, but for some obscure
reasons (I suspect a fear of a loss of control) the Imperial court decided
to ban seafaring.
It was a completely irrational (and, in my opinion, incredibly stupid) de-
cision, but it had to be rationalized and explained, so reasons were in-
vented: Basically, the contact with foreign barbarians would be bad for
China, and the barbarians had nothing useful to offer in trade.
Unfortunately this was believed, although almost all of China's history
proved it to be wrong. China went into isolation, and later found itself
unable to deal with foreigners, mainly because of that meme about
foreigners being barbarians with nothing to offer to China.
 
EDG said:
AFAIK non GT-Traveller doesn't specifically say that they're impossible, but doesn't specifically confirm that they are either (but there's a strong implication that they are possible at least in the post-IW era).
Adventure 3, Twilight's Peak, p. 52: "Because the Gyro Cadiz was capable of only jump-1, it was forced to make several jumps to deep space, and then jump again to a world destination; it's auxiliary fuet tank provided this capability."

Note that this is in reference to a ship during the Third Frontier War.
 
Also, there's an adventure (I think it's called Scout Cruiser or something like that. It's got a 1000t Scout Cruiser called the Henry Hudson going out looking for a lost scout-ship in the Gateway? sector). The ship first jumps to two different refueling stations in empty hexes before it gets to the planets it's headed for.
 
Attention: The Shaman, FallingPhoenix

FYI

This thread is not arguing about empty hex jumps in the recent timeperiod of the Third Imperium (from 970's to the present 1100's). According to Gurps Traveller Interstellar Wars empty hex jumps (aka deep space jumps) were not possible without a significant mass (at least planetary size) at both ends of the jump - no deep space jumps. Sometime during the Long Night the equations that would allow deep space jumps were solved and it has been possible to do so ever since. Some didn't accept Gurps Traveller material to be a crediable or 'canon' source and others wanted to know why those hexes that had the brown dwarf stars and/or rogue planets in them which had allowed the First Imperium to meet several races that were located in areas only reachable by crossing empty hexes when the First Imperium only had jump 1 capable ships were not marked on the maps in the 1100's.
 
RandyT0001 said:
Attention: The Shaman, FallingPhoenix

FYI

This thread is not arguing about empty hex jumps in the recent timeperiod of the Third Imperium (from 970's to the present 1100's). According to Gurps Traveller Interstellar Wars empty hex jumps (aka deep space jumps) were not possible without a significant mass (at least planetary size) at both ends of the jump - no deep space jumps. Sometime during the Long Night the equations that would allow deep space jumps were solved and it has been possible to do so ever since. Some didn't accept Gurps Traveller material to be a credable or 'canon' source and others wanted to know why those hexes that had the brown dwarf stars and/or rogue planets in them which had allowed the First Imperium to meet several races that were located in areas only reachable by crossing empty hexes when the First Imperium only had jump 1 capable ships were not marked on the maps in the 1100's.

<delurk>
Yes, pretty good summary and an impressive sentence ;)

All I'd add is that the intent was never to argue the canonicity of GURPS (or MT, or TNE) but rather to come up with a reasonable explanation for the above in the context of what we know about the IW period. The GURPS sourcebook is actually incedental to the discussion, as the same question exists in the CT body of work.

In short, find a solution that covers why EHJ's were not used in the IW period, when they would have been crucial and strategically decisive; and yet allow some way of moving across empty hexes with J1 (which had to exist well before then) and explain why NO waypoints based on brown dwarves or rogues seem to exist, no matter how useful or economically advantagious they would be.

And not simply assume that the vilani were stupid or too stubborn to use a technology they clearly knew about......and the same for the terrans. I hate stories where the good guys win because the baddies sat on their thumbs.

My best summation of the discussion is the post above. Feel free to comment or critique, obviously. Glad its still interesting.

<relurk>
 
My general take as of recently is about information. If you know where it is you can jump there. Or if you have the right tape you don't even really need know exactly where it's at.

Its all about the the charts. Now if you have Scout boat with the full compliment of sensors and cartographic gear that jump to a unknown point in deep space is breeze. But for the clapped-out half-blind Freighter that my PCs are flying not so.

So on a known route an intervening gap is just is just that, something to cross. Off the charts that trip is gonna be work.

So for me it's not so much what's there, as knowing how to get there.
 
RandyT0001 said:
Attention: The Shaman, FallingPhoenix

FYI

This thread is not arguing about empty hex jumps in the recent timeperiod of the Third Imperium (from 970's to the present 1100's).

Oops. Guess I didn't follow the whole thing quite as well as I thought. :)
 
FallingPhoenix said:
RandyT0001 said:
Attention: The Shaman, FallingPhoenix

FYI

This thread is not arguing about empty hex jumps in the recent timeperiod of the Third Imperium (from 970's to the present 1100's).

Oops. Guess I didn't follow the whole thing quite as well as I thought. :)

Considering what some of the pages in the middle are like, that's understandable.

Some effort was made to establish that the eras of the setting are indeed different in this regard, but the real meat here is to figure out *why*.

What has become clear is that the answer will be different for each person.

Without making the "each edition is its own Canon" leap, the answer cannot be "Science!". Either jumps into empty places (assuming any hex is truly empty) are possible, or they aren't.

The related answer, or set of answers, is "Technology!". This could stem from sensor technology, computer technology, or the drives themselves. The Hivers had to re-think jump theory from scratch to get past a J2 ceiling, so who's to say that the Vilani didn't have a chain of development that required a gravity well to aim at?

The answer many technologists and SF genre buffs seem to dislike is "Psychology!" Crys of "stupid bad guys? AGAIN?!?" and "Sure they'd do that. They're human aren't they?" seem to lead the pack, but really, the Vilani are not the humans we know. They make the most hide-bound and conservative cultures of Earth look gratuitously progressive, after all. Is this answer just as viable as the technology answer? Certainly.

So assuming you "need" to know why they couldn't do deep space jumps during the Nth Interstellar War period but can do them 2000 years later in the 3rd Imperium, the best advice is to pick a reason and not sweat it too much.
 
GypsyComet said:
The answer many technologists and SF genre buffs seem to dislike is "Psychology!" Crys of "stupid bad guys? AGAIN?!?" and "Sure they'd do that. They're human aren't they?" seem to lead the pack, but really, the Vilani are not the humans we know. They make the most hide-bound and conservative cultures of Earth look gratuitously progressive, after all. Is this answer just as viable as the technology answer? Certainly.

So assuming you "need" to know why they couldn't do deep space jumps during the Nth Interstellar War period but can do them 2000 years later in the 3rd Imperium, the best advice is to pick a reason and not sweat it too much.
The answer: plot and fitting in with established time lines.

In Interstellar Wars, they needed a reason why the Jump-2 capable Vilani had expanded so far out, yet hadn't gone that little bit further and conquered Earth/Terra while the crusades were going on. The psychology of the "Tradition!" Vilani approach (non-curious, conservative) vs. the risk-taking and flexible Terrans. You could equally argue that the First Imperium had grown to the maximum size it could without collapsing (and then only just). In the time line, it only took a few small nudges and the whole thing did collapse. Basically, it boils down to "because the story says so".

In my games, you can jump empty hexes but it's more difficult to do so and more dangerous than a normal jump. If the empty hexes are (relatively) well travelled, then it will be less difficult than an unknown route. On routes with heavy trade, then jumpships (jump tenders / jump ferries) will be present to help the Jump-1 ships over the gap (for a price, of course). In frontier areas, conversions of ships to include expansion of fuel storage using cargo space are common.
 
This entire thread prompted me to use the idea of Empty Hex Jumps in my ATU. I made it a computer program that you have to buy.

In my setting there are 2 Pocket Empires, one of them has the ability to make EHJ and the other does not. HUGE strategic advantage that sets up all kinds of cold war intrigue as the bad guys try to get the technology and the good guys try to keep those pesky merchants from selling it off.
 
Rikki Tikki Traveller said:
This entire thread prompted me to use the idea of Empty Hex Jumps in my ATU. I made it a computer program that you have to buy.

In my setting there are 2 Pocket Empires, one of them has the ability to make EHJ and the other does not. HUGE strategic advantage that sets up all kinds of cold war intrigue as the bad guys try to get the technology and the good guys try to keep those pesky merchants from selling it off.

It was indeed the need for EHJs in my campaign that got me wondering about them and their history. Basically, all that effects the players is that jumping to or from an empty hex makes misjumps considerably more likely - and that a bigger computer can ameliorate that problem.

This was a direct consequence of planning a CT based interstellar wars campaign, and then moving to a fringe golden age setting.
 
GypsyComet said:
The Hivers had to re-think jump theory from scratch to get past a J2 ceiling, so who's to say that the Vilani didn't have a chain of development that required a gravity well to aim at?

I completely forgot about that -didn't slag down after a few jumps ?

The answer many technologists and SF genre buffs seem to dislike is "Psychology!" Crys of "stupid bad guys? AGAIN?!?" and "Sure they'd do that. They're human aren't they?" seem to lead the pack, but really, the Vilani are not the humans we know. They make the most hide-bound and conservative cultures of Earth look gratuitously progressive, after all. Is this answer just as viable as the technology answer? Certainly.

well, yes, although I'm hardly a technologist. My main gripe with stupid bad guys is that it's lazy writing-or, if you prefer, not convoluted enough for my twisty brain.

A millenium static society is going to be basically alien, I agree; but the issue is, for me, that they had to have done it in the past - and static societies, especially the Vilanii as portreyed are also obsessive archivists. So the information had to be potentially available to later generations- unless supressed as "unsettling". Which was where I finally settled.

Now, I'm trying to build a scenario where those faked waypoints become important, and the players need to unravel the issue. I think it'll have to be a very early just past vilanii collapse period. I honestly can't think of a way to make it relevent or interesting to a current campaign.
 
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