Empty Jump Hex Solutions: comments critiques and rants

[EDG]

I think he already has answered that question at least once...

Several times . Even wrote a JTAS article on it.

Are they hard to detect? Yes. Why? Well, for starters they don't shed all that much light or heat, so our usual method for locating stellar objects doesn't work on them. They are also typically far from other stars and small, so they are not going to be readily detectable by their effects on other objects, either gravity effects or light.

They're hard to detect, but not impossible - they are after all still hotter than empty space, so IR sky surveys are be able to pick them up. And given the TLs of the Third Imperium they should be able to pick up a hell of a lot of them - quite why they haven't is unknown (obviously the reason they're not there in the OTU is because nobody knew about them in the 1970s when the game was written. The fact that they're still not there in the OTU means that either it's a universe that is physically very different to our own, or that everyone's astronomical surveying tech is unusually lousy.

Last I checked we had not actually found *any* Brown Dwarf stars, but EDG would know for certain.

We know of quite a few actually. http://www.solstation.com/stars/pc10bd.htm lists all the ones known within 10pc of Sol (around 20ish), there's even a binary one orbiting Epsilon Indi, and we know of several in the Pleiades too.

I figured that actually there should be a BD in pretty much every hex in Traveller.

 

[EDG]

I have no astrology knowledge whatsoever

AstroNOMY. Not Astrology.

And yes, we can detect things using gravity (because it distorts light passing the object), but that's mostly used for larger or more distant objects (like galaxies, planets around distant stars). AFAIK we haven't detected any nearby brown dwarfs like that.

 

[rust]

This is nice Rust. Combine this with a game rule making jumps into empty (no stellar masses) hexes more difficult works fine for me. This at least makes much more sense then the "they didn't do it for cultural reasons" which made no sense whatsoever. Can I use this?

Of course, you are welcome to use it.

 

[AndrewW]

Well, for starters they don't shed all that much light or heat, so our usual method for locating stellar objects doesn't work on them.

I have no astrology knowledge whatsoever, but I thought gravity was also commonly used to detect stellar objects. From what I understand (that could be completely wrong) we can detect unseen black holes by gravity, planets in nearby systems by gravity, etc. A.i. gravitational affect on other objects we can see.

Astrology and astronomoy or two different things...

While object existence can be determined by gravity there would need to be other objects that one can detect that are being influenced by the object.

 

[kristof65]

Whoa. Hadn't heard this one. But then, I have't bought too much from the GT line beyond the ship deckplans. I find the idea of disallowing EHJs in Traveller kind of ridiculous myself. This is the type of thing that needs to be considered when the "tech" of the FTL drive is worked out - like the 100d jump limit was. Not something to be added decades later because it's a convenient means for a rule book writer to explain the tactics of an interstellar war.

That said, there are ways to "justify" it, though some require thought to make the internal logic work.

The easiest solution is probably to consider how entering/exiting jump space works, and use the 100d limit. Perhaps one of the early design problems with J-drives wasn't getting INTO j-space, but getting OUT of it. The easiest way to counter that little technical issue at first is to make sure you attempt to jump to within 100d of a star or planet, knowing it's gravitational mass will eject you early.

Using this you can still technically jump into an "empty" hex with a BD, but if you combine it with computational accuracy issues, it becomes very difficult to do at lower tech levels - bright glowing stars and their 100d limits are relatively easy to aim for when compared to a BD. Throw in rust's previous explaination for the Vilani reluctance, and it makes more sense.

I do understand why the designer(s) of GTIW would use this as a plot device - figuring out the srategies and tactics is made much easier. With FTL technology that can go "anywhere", there is no "terrain" for helping decide tactics and strategies. It's something any aspiring sci-fi writer needs to consider when deciding what type of FTL tech their universe will use if there will be any type of interstellar conflicts. I think Marc tried to when he originally decided upon how the j-drive works - it just turns out it wasn't limiting enough for GTIW, I guess.

 

[RandyT0001]

In case any newcomers wanted to read the other threads about empty hex jumps that were posted concurrently to this one but don't feel like digging through search results in an attempt to find the answers, I went ahead and did it for you:
http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=36490
http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=36133
http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=36037
The last one is the longest and the last two provide good reading (just ignore the deviations from topic that sometimes occur). After reading them you should be able to pick your preferred solutions from the ones presented or formulate your own. In the end how you play your game with your players is up to you.

 

[EDG]

This is the type of thing that needs to be considered when the "tech" of the FTL drive is worked out - like the 100d jump limit was. Not something to be added decades later because it's a convenient means for a rule book writer to explain the tactics of an interstellar war.

It wasn't tacked on later - it was there right from the start. The Imperium wargame (on which GT:IW was based) originally only allowed jumps to go from star to star, and the only way to get to deep space was by sublight drive. So you could either spend a week jumping from one star to another, or spend years travelling between stars using sublight drives. The sections describing the history of the Vilani also describes how travel was limited by the range of their J1 drive, since the average distance between stars was 2pc - at least until they discovered J2. It also describes how the Terrans couldn't go beyond their own system using J1 until they discovered J2, and how they were stuck there for 43 years from the time J1 was discovered (in 2090, so according to Imperium J2 was discovered by the Terrans in 2133).

However, it also says that the Terrans set up a refuelling station partway between Barnard and Terra in 2113. Given the rules of the game they must have got to this refuelling point using sublight drives, and then must have jumped from there to Barnard, and given the rules stating that jumps could only be made between stars, and stars are massive objects, there therefore had to be a massive object in that intermediate hex. And obligingly, we know of massive objects that could be there now - Brown Dwarfs.

If that hadn't been the case, and large masses weren't needed to jump to and from, then the Vilani could and would just ignore stars completely and directly attack Earth from deep space (and the Terrans would ignore the stars and attack 1I worlds from deep space too), and the wars would turn out very differently. Since that didn't happen, massive objects MUST have been required for them to turn out the way they did.

And then subsequent CT texts set in the 1100s era say it's possible to do EHJs without needing stars there.


The problem really is that Imperium contradicts itself. The easiest solution to all of this would be to say that EHJ's weren't possible in the IW era and that the Terrans really were stuck in the solar system until they invented J2 - and then just push the date of the discovery forward to 2113. So when they broke out of the Sol system and met the Vilani, they already had J2. This only changes the history for the first IW, because by the time the second IW came around they'd upgraded to J2 anyway. And then, at a later point millennia afterwards the technology evolved and it became possible to do EHJs so that it was a normal procedure by the 1100s.

That would solve all the problems right there. Shift the Terran discovery of J2 back by 20 years, keep the evolution in technology that prevents EHJs in earlier periods an allows them later, and that's that.

 

[kristof65]

It wasn't tacked on later - it was there right from the start. The Imperium wargame (on which GT:IW was based) originally only allowed jumps to go from star to star.

That merely changes the color of the apple - we're still talking about the same basic reasons the EHJ restriction came about. In order to make a playable strategic wargame, GDW had to figure out some way to give the map "terrain", therefore they made the decision disallow EHJs for playability reasons.

But did they do so intending it to become a "feature" of the Traveller j-drive?

I contend they did not - there is no mention of such a restriction in Book 2 or Book 5, several references to doing multiple jump ones via EHJs in various Supplements and Adventures, but my primary "evidence" is Adv 5, Trillion Credit Squadron. Had this been an important aspect of the technological development of j-drive in Traveller, surely this would have been mentioned in the tournament and/or campaign rules.

As I see it, the whole thing arose from the differing needs of a strategic board game - Imperium - and an RPG - Traveller. Imperium needed the restriction to make it a more playable game, Traveller only needed the slower communications of j-drive, therefore the EHJ restriction was never mentioned. The decision to use Imperium as canon for GTIW (regardless of who made that decision) brought the whole issue to the front.

But the thread was supposed to be about solutions to those who want to use EHJ restrictions in their campaigns - I've suggested mine. Personally, I won't use it, that doesn't stop me from coming up with workable solutions.

 

[EDG]

But did they do so intending it to become a "feature" of the Traveller j-drive?

I contend they did not - there is no mention of such a restriction in Book 2 or Book 5, several references to doing multiple jump ones via EHJs in various Supplements and Adventures, but my primary "evidence" is Adv 5, Trillion Credit Squadron. Had this been an important aspect of the technological development of j-drive in Traveller, surely this would have been mentioned in the tournament and/or campaign rules.

There's a lot of things that aren't mentioned explicitly in the rules, but the jump drive limit is. Don't you find it a little strange to discard something that is actually explicitly mentioned in the rules in favour of a whole lot of circumstantial evidence based on things that aren't mentioned in the rules? I also find it a bit curious that a lot of Traveller fans are very eager to discard later rulings or explanations in favour of earlier ones, but apparently not in this case.

It seems to me that the initial intent was to have the jumps go from star to star only, and then GDW changed their minds at a later date as they further developed CT. So to me it makes the most sense to have that happen in the setting too and say that EHJs weren't possible at one point, but became possible later.

 

[captainjack23]

In fact, the issue is exactly because GT hewed very closely to the physical setting of traveller and Imperium - the EHJ comes up mainly as an issue to explain how the war could have worked given the star map of both imperium and the sol area in the RPG suppliments.

I think its pretty clear that imperium predates the concept of the traveller RPG, but shares influence as they share the same designer. My understanding is that very soon after traveller was crystalized as a project (or published ? I'm not sure) it was decided to explicitly use the setting for the rpg. Obviously there were some mismatches; at least partly because the game has never had (or needed to have) its background updated.

And in any case, the game is of questionable value for deciding the limits of the RPG - in the reprint volumes, it's described as part of canon, but as an abstraction to produce a boardgame; so I don't think it can be taken at all literally. Not that any of this could or should be taken literally.

Regardless, the situation at the time of the IW period doesn't apply to the colonial period, and thats as much the issue. The Vilani MUST have had some capacity to cross J2 gaps before they had J2 drive. And if so, where did it go (and, if one posits refuleing points, or brown dwarves/rogue planets) why are they all gone now ? And they would have needed lots of them: I think we spotted 14 without too much effort in the previous threads - two alone are required to contact one of the semi-major races - the Suerat ? Or the the Dwarf analogues ? I misremember.
J2 can cross the gaps, but as long as there are J1 ships, the bridges will be useful. Yet every single one is gone.

That said, I think I really like Rust's basic idea of a Hindenberg event; I have some needlessly twisty extra stuff to add to it to tie it up in a nice knot, but I'll think some more on that and post it later

 

[captainjack23]

So to me it makes the most sense to have that happen in the setting too and say that EHJs weren't possible at one point, but became possible later.

Actually, my take is the reverse: it looks like EHJs were possible at an early point, but then became not so possible later. The colonial period vilani had to have had EHJ tech of some kind. (See above). Then, by the IW period, they didn't. Which is odd.

 

[GypsyComet]

Weren't pre-plotted jump tapes a part of the 77 edition of CT? That's an argument for cultural biases and/or increased difficulty and danger in EHJ. I can't find my 77 edition Book 2 at the moment or I'd check...

 

[EDG]

And in any case, the game is of questionable value for deciding the limits of the RPG - in the reprint volumes, it's described as part of canon, but as an abstraction to produce a boardgame;

I don't recall seeing any such caveats in the Canon List in the reprints, IIRC it just says that Imperium is canon. If people want to interpret it differently then that's up to the individual, but it seems to me that this is just picking and choosing what is or isn't defined as official canon based on individual preferences.

Fact is, it's simply defined as Traveller canon. Like a lot of other things in CT, it also contradicts itself and other canon. That is the joy of canon, and is why we're in this mess to start with .

 

[EDG]

Actually, my take is the reverse: it looks like EHJs were possible at an early point, but then became not so possible later. The colonial period vilani had to have had EHJ tech of some kind. (See above). Then, by the IW period, they didn't. Which is odd.

Or they didn't, and bridged J2 gaps using sublight. Or found brown dwarfs in the gaps and used those as bridges like the Terrans did.

 

[Infojunky]

Weren't pre-plotted jump tapes a part of the 77 edition of CT? That's an argument for cultural biases and/or increased difficulty and danger in EHJ. I can't find my 77 edition Book 2 at the moment or I'd check...

Yes Jim they were.

I haven't thought about them in years. Ran some great adventures with them too. Odd tapes taking you to interesting places....

Now, about that weird red Cyberdeck I picked up at the bazaar last week.....

 

[captainjack23]

And in any case, the game is of questionable value for deciding the limits of the RPG - in the reprint volumes, it's described as part of canon, but as an abstraction to produce a boardgame;

I don't recall seeing any such caveats in the Canon List in the reprints, IIRC it just says that Imperium is canon. If people want to interpret it differently then that's up to the individual, but it seems to me that this is just picking and choosing what is or isn't defined as official canon based on individual preferences.

Fact is, it's simply defined as Traveller canon. Like a lot of other things in CT, it also contradicts itself and other canon. That is the joy of canon, and is why we're in this mess to start with .

Nah. Its not an interpretation, it's there in the list noted that way, it stuck out for that reason. I'll chase it down as I can, if you want.

Otherwise, yes.

 

[captainjack23]

Weren't pre-plotted jump tapes a part of the 77 edition of CT? That's an argument for cultural biases and/or increased difficulty and danger in EHJ. I can't find my 77 edition Book 2 at the moment or I'd check...

Yes Jim they were.

I haven't thought about them in years. Ran some great adventures with them too. Odd tapes taking you to interesting places....

Now, about that weird red Cyberdeck I picked up at the bazaar last week.....

Oh yeah......the LBB right ? Yes, that does suggest a direction.

Thanks !

 

[captainjack23]

Actually, my take is the reverse: it looks like EHJs were possible at an early point, but then became not so possible later. The colonial period vilani had to have had EHJ tech of some kind. (See above). Then, by the IW period, they didn't. Which is odd.

Or they didn't, and bridged J2 gaps using sublight. Or found brown dwarfs in the gaps and used those as bridges like the Terrans did.

Sublight is a possibility. IIRC M drive can hit about 70% LS as a practical limit.. so a two parsec gap is doable.

Brown Dwarfs, perhaps, but....why are they not still noted and in use ? At least some of them ? A bridge connecting two mains for J1 traffic isn't going to go away.

 

[kristof65]

There's a lot of things that aren't mentioned explicitly in the rules, but the jump drive limit is. Don't you find it a little strange to discard something that is actually explicitly mentioned in the rules in favour of a whole lot of circumstantial evidence based on things that aren't mentioned in the rules?

In the rules of what? Nowhere in the CT rules is the EHJ restriction mentioned - that's apparently from Imperium. I played a lot of CT in 79-86, and I don't recall Imperium ever being marketed as anything other than a boardgame based on Traveller.

And sometimes something not being mentioned is as telling as that which is - see below.

I also find it a bit curious that a lot of Traveller fans are very eager to discard later rulings or explanations in favour of earlier ones, but apparently not in this case.

I don't. Anytime you have an inconsistancy in canon, two (or more) sides are going to form.

It seems to me that the initial intent was to have the jumps go from star to star only, and then GDW changed their minds at a later date as they further developed CT.

Impossible to actually know unless you know which rule set was devised first, what concessions were made in each, and how closely they were originally intended to be tied. Only Marc and the others from GDW can answer that. All we can go with is what we infer from all the materials we have access to.

I can tell you that from a strategy and tactics standpoint, a game without chokepoints is far less interesting than one with. EHJ restrictions are an easy way to achieve a form of terrain chokepoints in an interstellar map, and make sense in a board game design like Imperium. The fact that they didn't mention it specifically in CT indicates to me the restriction was only important to them from a strategy and game play standpoint, and not for any type of internal RPG game logic.

There also seems to be a little bit of revisionist history in what is canon and what isn't. In the final pages of Journal of the Traveller's Aid Society Number 7, there is a two page spread that says:

Play aids for Traveller
The following items are produced for use with Traveller by a variety of publishers and manufacturers.

Near the end of that list is a section labelled:

Games (boardgames for Traveller)

There are three games listed there - Mayday, Snapshot and AZH. Imperium is not listed there. While we can't take this list as an authoritive list of canon at the time, the distinct lack of mention of Imperium - which predates the three games mentioned - is rather telling, don't you think?

The whole concept of Traveller canon has really become ridiculous. There are nearly as many inconsistancies within the published Traveller works as there are within the Star Wars Expanded Universe canon - and there are far more published Star Wars works.

 

[Infojunky]

Weren't pre-plotted jump tapes a part of the 77 edition of CT? That's an argument for cultural biases and/or increased difficulty and danger in EHJ. I can't find my 77 edition Book 2 at the moment or I'd check...

Yes Jim they were.

I haven't thought about them in years. Ran some great adventures with them too. Odd tapes taking you to interesting places....

Now, about that weird red Cyberdeck I picked up at the bazaar last week.....

Oh yeah......the LBB right ? Yes, that does suggest a direction.

Thanks !

No problem then....

A lot of game that I have run have been about traveling off of the known routes.

Though building those routes and mapping are sometimes an issue.