Empty Jump Hex Solutions: comments critiques and rants

[EDG]

Hmmm. Good question. Is the date for jump drive being invented, a hard date , or inferred ?

It's hard, in a squishy sense .

It was invented sometime between 2085 and 2090. But every source on the subject has a different date. Imperium says 2090. GT:IW says 2088 (and 2092 for a "true" J1 drive that allowed them to leave the system - which may correspond to your TL10 J1+ drive actually, though then you have to explain why it took them another couple of years to start jumping to empty hexes). CT Supplement 10 says 2089. CT AM 6 says 2087. And CT Supplement 11 (Library Data N-Z) says in its entry on Solomani that they developed it in -2431 (which actually agrees with Supplement 10, because that supposedly is 2089 AD).

And Supp 8 Library Data A-M says that the Solomani "contacted the Vilani ... less than 100 years after developing space flight, and less than a decade after their discovery of jump drive". Well, Terrans developed space flight in 1950s/1960s, so that Supplement claims that the Solomani contacted the Vilani before 2069, which completely contradicts everything else.

Personally I put all this down to poor editing on the part of the writers. I go with 2088 (from GT:IW) as the most authoritative date since that's the book actually written about that era.

 

[captainjack23]

BTW, EDG -thanks for removing the other post from the poster thread -how'd ya make it go away so cleanly though ?

Erm, the delete button?

You should be able to delete your own posts, there should be an X in a button on the right along with edit and quote.

possibly its a browser thing - I cant see a delete botton, x or anything next tothe edit/quote.....Unless you have some....special powers, hmmmm?

 

[EDG]

It might be time-limited, as in you can only delete within a short time of posting.

EDIT: I see it now on this post, but not on the post I made above about three hours ago.

 

[Golan2072]

A question: is the empty-hex problem an OTU problem only, or would normal jumps to/from empty hexes cause problems in ATUs as well?

 

[RandyT0001]

A question: is the empty-hex problem an OTU problem only, or would normal jumps to/from empty hexes cause problems in ATUs as well?

From my understanding there is no problem with empty hex jumps in ATU's at all. In ATU's however you wish to do it is up to the creator. In the OTU if you are writing for the OTU you need to be aware that before the Aslan Border Wars, as presented in the Dark Nebula game, (sometime during the Long Night timeframe) one cannot jump into completely empty hexes: there has to be some sort of mass there to jump to. The mass may be an undiscovered brown dwarf, rogue planet, asteroid, etc that is not on any OTU published map. After the Aslan Border Wars jumping into empty hexes without a mass is possible in the OTU by any TL ship built by any race using any size (Jump-1, Jump-2, etc) jump drive. Clear now?

 

[rust]

Jump Drives are no longer used in my setting, and no self-respecting
spacer would consider to go near a ship with such an unreliable and
outright dangerous device. :shock:

However, a short while ago the characters in my campaign discove-
red the wreck of an 1750 years old colony ship in orbit around a lost
human colony.
On board of that ancient ship they found a couple of data cubes, and
they will soon be trying to decipher their content, hoping for some in-
teresting and useful informations.

A few minutes ago I have made up my mind about what these data
cubes will contain: A description of a somewhat scholastic scientific
debate about the calculations needed to jump into an empty deep
space region with one of those archaic jump drives.
And another of the data cubes will be the diary of a crew member,
who will mention that the colony ship misjumped because of an at-
tempt to cross such an empty deep space region.

So, now we know why this colony was remote enough to become
lost and sink back into neo-barbarism ... :twisted:

 

[captainjack23]

A few minutes ago I have made up my mind about what these data
cubes will contain: A description of a somewhat scholastic scientific
debate about the calculations needed to jump into an empty deep
space region with one of those archaic jump drives.:twisted:

If you are proposing using quotes from these online discussion, as regards my stuff, I say:

COOL ! Go for it. At least I can think that my meanderings helped some GM somewhere....even if only as props.

 

[rust]

If you are proposing using quotes from these online discussion ...

No, no quotes, since I will have to write the stuff in German for my play-
ers.

It is only an idea to give a practical use to a very interesting discussion,
and it provides a plausible explanation for the lost colony mentioned abo-
ve, as well as some "colour" for the setting.

Plus, it creates a kind of connection between my setting and the Traveller
universe(s), which is useful because I plan to use much of the future MGT
material for my setting - I think a kind of "generic" MGT universe will be-
come the "distant past" of my setting, and this could be a way to intro-
duce it via those ancient data cubes.

 

[captainjack23]

If you are proposing using quotes from these online discussion ...

No, no quotes, since I will have to write the stuff in German for my play-
ers.

Oh yeah, forgot that - you could run it thru babelfish -althought would probably just be cruel.....

• "Ummmmm.....What does " non outjumping of lessweighty stars six side-shaped areas of it required small bread loaf" mean ?"
  

 

[rust]

Oh yeah, forgot that - you could run it thru babelfish -althought would probably just be cruel.....

I once did that for the "translation" of the inscription on an alien artefact,
from German to English and back through Babelfish. The players never
figured out what that inscription was ...

 

[grymlocke]

Simplest solution, as per CT:
There is no penalty whatsoever for jumps to/from empty hexes.

Any non-use in prior periods was cultural, not technical.

EXCEPT FUEL....

if the idea is to get away from gravity influences of a star/planet/other for the j-drive to operate properly...then what could possibly be better than an empty hex !

ofcourse there is that pesky fuel requirements thing...once dropped into an empty, having fuel for getting out would be the problem.

 

[AKAramis]

Simplest solution, as per CT:
There is no penalty whatsoever for jumps to/from empty hexes.

Any non-use in prior periods was cultural, not technical.

EXCEPT FUEL....

if the idea is to get away from gravity influences of a star/planet/other for the j-drive to operate properly...then what could possibly be better than an empty hex !

ofcourse there is that pesky fuel requirements thing...once dropped into an empty, having fuel for getting out would be the problem.

From a design standpoint, only a problem at J4+

See, it's roughly 20% of a ship for J1, counting drive and PP. Adding a further jump (under MGT) is about another 12% (counting extra PP duration).

But at J3, you're looking about 50%, +36% for another jump.

Plus the 10% overhead (SR and Bridge). So a J3 ship has some payload available, but a 2J3 has almost none.

At 2J4, it's nigh impossible.

Now, Under some editions, 2j4 was doable; CTHG and T20 both allow much more accurate calcs. TL15 HG/t20:
Bridge: 2%
JD 1+Jn%
JF 10Jn%
PP Jn%
PF Jn%
So (2+13Jn) % for
J1: 17% of ship for 1J1, 27% for 2j1, 37% for 3j1, 48% for 4J1 (2 month fuel duration required)
J2: 1j2 = 28%, 2j2 48%, 3j2 68%
J3: 1j3 = 41%, 2j3 71%
j4: 1j4 = 49%, 2j4 90%
Not including crew.

So... being able to carry fuel for a second jump is peaked at about 2j3.

(MegaTraveller's big change to 5xDrive Size for jump fuel reduced longer ranges drastically, resulting in my being able to design a ship with 3j3!)

 

[captainjack23]

(MegaTraveller's big change to 5xDrive Size for jump fuel reduced longer ranges drastically, resulting in my being able to design a ship with 3j3!)

I was never sure why they did that, actually. Seemed like tinkering for the sake of.

Still, that change (and back) is easily explained by a sweeping field of weak interatomic forces that passed over charted space and vastly enhanced the efficiency of fusion reactions....and then went away.

Still, it must have been a bit dicey for the first few ships who discovered this new effect....

 

[far-trader]

...not figuring in Drop Tanks (again ). I tell you, once those are in the mix the whole thing changes.

 

[AKAramis]

(MegaTraveller's big change to 5xDrive Size for jump fuel reduced longer ranges drastically, resulting in my being able to design a ship with 3j3!)

I was never sure why they did that, actually. Seemed like tinkering for the sake of.

Still, that change (and back) is easily explained by a sweeping field of weak interatomic forces that passed over charted space and vastly enhanced the efficiency of fusion reactions....and then went away.

Still, it must have been a bit dicey for the first few ships who discovered this new effect....

It's a better argument that the MTOTU is not the same as the CTOTU nor the TNEOTU... things work differently in the respective universes as modeled by the games. (Hans takes the approach that the games are flawed images of one universe, whilst I'm arguing they are accurate reflections of parallel universes.)

Once, however, you get to the point of accepting that the different editions are different close-parallel universes, so does the Early TU as defined pre-80, and so also does the board-game universe of Imperium and Dark Nebula...

 

[captainjack23]

I was never sure why they did that, actually. Seemed like tinkering for the sake of.

Still, that change (and back) is easily explained by a sweeping field of weak interatomic forces that passed over charted space and vastly enhanced the efficiency of fusion reactions....and then went away.

Still, it must have been a bit dicey for the first few ships who discovered this new effect....

It's a better argument that the MTOTU is not the same as the CTOTU nor the TNEOTU... things work differently in the respective universes as modeled by the games. (Hans takes the approach that the games are flawed images of one universe, whilst I'm arguing they are accurate reflections of parallel universes.)

Once, however, you get to the point of accepting that the different editions are different close-parallel universes, so does the Early TU as defined pre-80, and so also does the board-game universe of Imperium and Dark Nebula...

Ummmmm. I was making mit der yucks ? ie Not very serious ?

Still, I do have to say that Hans' approach is,for me, more amusing and has more fertile ground for retroactiverationalization in Fiction (which I like); Saying, "its an alternate universe" is easy, and clean, and well.....Easy. So, less fun. For those of us who enjoy the discovery process as much as the resolution phase.

But hey, you have posted about how you eschew .......Neurobehavoral Onanism in Fiction studies, so, fair enough.

 

[qstor]

As someone said on ENworld once *casting thread necromancy*

I'm not much of an astronomy wiz. So if I brown dwarf or interstellar cloud is present in an empty hex. How do the players/ship refuel? From:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_dwarf

It didnt look like there was much gaseous hydrogen for the fuel scoupe?

I think refueling stations could occupy empty hexes as well. But then it would be up to the owners of the station if they players could use the station.
And lastly where in the OTU does it state specifically that empty hex jumps are impossible?

thanks all.

Mike

 

[EDG]

I'm not much of an astronomy wiz. So if I brown dwarf or interstellar cloud is present in an empty hex. How do the players/ship refuel?

Scooping from interstellar clouds would be pointless - there's not enough gas there.

Scooping from BDs would be impossible without really high G manoeuvre drives - in fact I don't even thinking anything in High Guard goes that high, BD gravity at the cloudtops is a minimum of 25g. The only way you're getting fuel from them is to find an ice-covered moon around them and get it from there.

 

[AKAramis]

I think refueling stations could occupy empty hexes as well. But then it would be up to the owners of the station if they players could use the station.
And lastly where in the OTU does it state specifically that empty hex jumps are impossible?

it doesn't. In fact, it specifically states the opposite: in The Traveller Adventure, in the chapter In Search of Longer Legs, it specifies that empty hex jumps are not only possible, but relatively well known.

 

[EDG]

In GT: Interstellar Wars, it specifically states that Empty Hex Jumps aren't possible in that era. AFAIK non GT-Traveller doesn't specifically say that they're impossible, but doesn't specifically confirm that they are either (but there's a strong implication that they are possible at least in the post-IW era).

As I've said elsewhere, if you want to reconcile these then that's pretty easy - EHJs weren't possible in the IW-era, but became possible at some point after that. Or if you're the type that refuses to acknowledge the validity of anything written in GT to the OTU, you can just ignore that part completely.

The weird thing about all this is that EHJs were only ever explicitly used in TNE (there they were known as "calibration points", where bases were set up in empty hexes to jump off from). AFAIK no other (post-IW) version of Traveller has ever bothered to mention any permanent stations in empty hexes, and it's strange because there are many places in Charted Space where it'd be much better to bridge a gap than to follow jumplinks between many more systems.