Ebooks

[captainjack23]

Catalyst Game Labs - current publishers of Shadowrun and BattleTech and a host of interesting looking upcoming board, war and role-playing games sell PDFs of their books before the physical books come out - the most recent core BattleTech expansion has been out in PDF since december and the hardback's not out for at least another couple of months. They don't distribute to Amazon, only via their own online store and to physical shops.

They've found that PDF sales have not negatively impaced physical sales at all, and im many cases has helped them.

I'm not surprised to hear that -it jibes with what other companies say (Hasbro possibly being an exception), and from FLGSs. I honestly doubt that WoW type games have no impact on sales of P&P games, but I doubt that its severe, or that its neccessarily negative. More WoW games attracting more new blood is going to contribute some of that to P&P gaming -geeks being geeks after all.

The biggest issue that I've heard from Brick and Mortar game stores is the discount online game stores. They do seem to be cutting sales, but its hard to know how much, or if its significanty more than otherB&M game stores with a discount policy. Regardless, what they provide is the ability to check out before buying, and get known reviews and good info about coming stuff -which the online only have no way to provide. Too, the B&M venue provide me lots more opportunity for impulse and discovery buying.....possibly an argument for eliminating them, I admit..


Game stores sell games - I honestly doubt that online sales would replace FLGS sales, which means less revenue overall; less revenue, less games, less companies, less variety.
Not good, I'm guessing. And given that I have yet to hear of a publisher who doesn't think B&M sales are important, I'll go with the experts on that issue.

As to the "Who cares about stores ?"argument, all I can say is one less venue for gaming and community is one less venue, and a loss. If you're not a particulalry social gamer, or have a tight and/or convenient bunch of gamer friends, or just plain don't like gamers, I suppose it's not an issue; but while gamers make gamers, what I've seen in the last thirty some years, then and now, is that gamestores support and extend ones ability to game;

I don't think its emotional manipulation to suggest that gamestores provide a serice to the community by creating the community, in many cases;so actually I see it as self interest - I'd probably be less involved in the hobby without it. (including Traveller, tho some among you may not feel that that would be a bad thing ).

Plus, some of the owners and employees are just plain nice folks.

 

[tneva82]

More WoW games attracting more new blood is going to contribute some of that to P&P gaming -geeks being geeks after all.

Have you tried running RPG for players who come from WoW? I have. Went like: Got bored to character creation(traveller). Every other skill than melee/parry got booed(4 characters, 3 fighters, 1 barbarian. Wopedoo). I got constantly told to get into combats and stop that non-combat stuff from getting in the way.

After a while I really, really, REALLY was tempted to throw dozen melee(blade) 10 parry(10) str(15) dex(15) end(15) fellows with 8d6 blades and tell them "here's your combat" and be done with it.

 

[EDG]

I suppose it's not an issue; but while gamers make gamers, what I've seen in the last thirty some years, then and now, is that gamestores support and extend ones ability to game;

How? This argument gets trotted out all the time, but I have never seen any game store that "created a community" or that gamers revolved around. Ever. They may run the odd RPG (like I said, nowadays it's mostly card or mini tournaments), but that's about as far as it goes.

Fact is, online stores do well because they tend to offer games for cheaper and they're more convenient. If that kills B&M stores (and I don't think it will), well... that's capitalism for ya. Either B&M stores must adapt to the new reality, or they'll just die out.

I don't think its emotional manipulation to suggest that gamestores provide a serice to the community by creating the community, in many cases;

As I said, I've never seen that happen. They're just places to buy books and games from, that's all. If they weren't there, people would find other ways to buy them.

The emotional blackmail part comes from people who say that the hobby will die if the B&M stores disappear. That's just nonsense. At worst, they'll just stop selling RPGs - otherwise they'll still be there selling all the other gaming-related stuff that they sell (and that they probably make a lot more profit on).

 

[tneva82]

How? This argument gets trotted out all the time, but I have never seen any game store that "created a community" or that gamers revolved around

I have. I have also seen what happens when said store was forced to close down room for playing. Wasn't pretty for local gaming community. Took a long time to recover from that blow. Doubtful would it have if it hadn't been for the store in a first place to create it.

 

[EDG]

Have you tried running RPG for players who come from WoW? I have. Went like: Got bored to character creation(traveller). Every other skill than melee/parry got booed(4 characters, 3 fighters, 1 barbarian. Wopedoo). I got constantly told to get into combats and stop that non-combat stuff from getting in the way.

It doesn't sound like you made much of an effort to win them over. I would suggest giving them what they want at first, then slowly expand to non-combat stuff.

Heck... the MMOs arguably can get a lot of people going to the tabletop environment, for precisely the reason you state - that they can't easily go beyond the fixed quest format (though that's getting better now, especially given that you can wonder around a world and find new quests that you didn't see before). And arguably the best game to go to from WoW is D&D4e because it's similar in a lot of concepts. Start there, and then expand from that.

 

[rust]

Over here many FLGS also have online shops for those who live too far
away from the shop, or who want their RPGs now and cannot wait for the
next visit to the town.

German books all have the same prices, no matter where in Germany one
orders or buys them (a law introduced to protect local bookshops), and
English books ordered from an FLGS online shop usually are not much mo-
re expensive than those ordered from Amazon.

However, the service of the FLGS online shops is significantly better. More
than a few of the owners visit at least some of the roleplaying forums, so
one can ask them about the newest games and can get detailed informa-
tions from someone who really knows and likes RPGs.

Moreover, one can also make "special orders" (e.g. "but only the 2nd edi-
tion with the errata", "cannot pay now, but make a reservation for July",
etc.) without any problems - it is more like dealing with friends and fellow
roleplaying gamers than with a company.

 

[EDG]

I have. I have also seen what happens when said store was forced to close down room for playing. Wasn't pretty for local gaming community. Took a long time to recover from that blow. Doubtful would it have if it hadn't been for the store in a first place to create it.

You don't need a store to be able to play RPGs though. Why couldn't they have just moved their games to their houses? Or to university? Or rent out a place?

 

[tneva82]

Have you tried running RPG for players who come from WoW? I have. Went like: Got bored to character creation(traveller). Every other skill than melee/parry got booed(4 characters, 3 fighters, 1 barbarian. Wopedoo). I got constantly told to get into combats and stop that non-combat stuff from getting in the way.

It doesn't sound like you made much of an effort to win them over. I would suggest giving them what they want at first, then slowly expand to non-combat stuff.

If they don't want non-combat what's the point? MMORPG's are all about quick combat hack&slash. People who play those don't WANT non-combat. They want to get in combat fast, kill some monsters, loot and repeat 'till time is up.

Heck... the MMOs arguably can get a lot of people going to the tabletop environment, for precisely the reason you state - that they can't easily go beyond the fixed quest format

Except they don't want that. If they wanted they wouldn't be MMORPG fans in a first place but would have gone to p&p RPG's long time ago.

And arguably the best game to go to from WoW is D&D4e because it's similar in a lot of concepts. Start there, and then expand from that.

Except for hack&slash game computer MMORGP is just lot more convinient. p&p is better when it comes to freeform story. For hack&slash ala WoW and D&D it's less good solution.

So we have p&p RPG's which don't interest MMORPG crowd and MMORPG crowd which might try D&D and get back to MMORPG's because it works better as hack&slash game than D&D.

 

[tneva82]

I have. I have also seen what happens when said store was forced to close down room for playing. Wasn't pretty for local gaming community. Took a long time to recover from that blow. Doubtful would it have if it hadn't been for the store in a first place to create it.

You don't need a store to be able to play RPGs though. Why couldn't they have just moved their games to their houses? Or to university? Or rent out a place?

Less convinient. Store is roughly in the middle of town=roughly same time for everybody. Game session also allows to buy stuff you need while you are at it. Space is also "little" issue. Not many students have big houses capable of having lots of people comfortable(my own apartment could comfortably hold one. Two and things got crowded. Try to hold RPG session there...).

 

[rust]

So we have p&p RPG's which don't interest MMORPG crowd and MMORPG crowd which might try D&D and get back to MMORPG's because it works better as hack&slash game than D&D.

They are not mutually exclusive, I know quite a lot of gamers who play
pen & paper RPGs just as well as MMORPGs.

 

[EDG]

If they don't want non-combat what's the point? MMORPG's are all about quick combat hack&slash. People who play those don't WANT non-combat. They want to get in combat fast, kill some monsters, loot and repeat 'till time is up.

You have played D&D, right?

It sounds like you just let your own snobbishness about RPGs get in the way. Sure, RPGs aren't all about hack and slash, but I know that's how I got into them in the first place, way back in the day.

Some people have to work up to the deeper roleplaying aspects of RPGs. Forcing them to do something they don't want to do isn't going to be fun for anyone.

 

[EDG]

Less convinient. Store is roughly in the middle of town=roughly same time for everybody. Game session also allows to buy stuff you need while you are at it. Space is also "little" issue. Not many students have big houses capable of having lots of people comfortable(my own apartment could comfortably hold one. Two and things got crowded. Try to hold RPG session there...).

You live in a broom cupboard?

I can't believe that it's that hard to find an area big enough to be able to run a tabletop RPG, sorry.

 

[EDG]

They are not mutually exclusive, I know quite a lot of gamers who play pen & paper RPGs just as well as MMORPGs.

I do, for starters. A lot of my friends do as well.

 

[captainjack23]

I suppose it's not an issue; but while gamers make gamers, what I've seen in the last thirty some years, then and now, is that gamestores support and extend ones ability to game;

How? This argument gets trotted out all the time, but I have never seen any game store that "created a community" or that gamers revolved around. Ever. They may run the odd RPG (like I said, nowadays it's mostly card or mini tournaments), but that's about as far as it goes.

This isn't an argument without substance, like some: go to www.gamekastle.com and look thru their shedule of events. Do the same with WWW.gatorgames.com; do the same with Gamescape.com. Do the same with games of berkeley (google it, not sure of the URL). Those are the local ones, the big ones anyway, that support a metropolitan are of - I dunno -a couple of million ? Not sure how many gamers.

Now. You'll see that they run games: board, card and RPG; some Live. They hold fleamarkets; provide open gaming space; sponsor clubs; sponsor company demos and customer tounmants; provide tables, terrain, games and in at least two cases, minis for walk in play; particpate and sponsor conventions.
How doesn't that stack up as providing support ?

I suppose they could provide free beer and wax my car if they really wanted to give somthing to the community (Jeff, are you reading this ?)

So, I suppose it must be vastly different where you live; Its the only way I can explain the difference. But here, and in the last two places I've lived, the above model is the typical one. And it's not new, either.
I admit I'm assuming you actually patronize gaming stores at least sometimes, but it seems reasonable to assume that, given that you are a gamer.....

Fact is, online stores do well because they tend to offer games for cheaper and they're more convenient. If that kills B&M stores (and I don't think it will), well... that's capitalism for ya. Either B&M stores must adapt to the new reality, or they'll just die out.

No, actually it's Ayn Rand . But I agree that they won't die out. I also disagree that they provide nothing for the small added expense of face to face sales. YMMV, obviously.

I don't think its emotional manipulation to suggest that gamestores provide a service to the community by creating the community, in many cases;

As I said, I've never seen that happen. They're just places to buy books and games from, that's all. If they weren't there, people would find other ways to buy them.

...you have now if you check the web.. And you won't get any of that from an online store. But I don't deny that you may well be in an underserved or already dead area. Possibly there aren't many gamestores there, certainly not enough to encourage stores to be community oriented, perhaps. That's capitalism.

The emotional blackmail part comes from people who say that the hobby will die if the B&M stores disappear. That's just nonsense. At worst, they'll just stop selling RPGs - otherwise they'll still be there selling all the other gaming-related stuff that they sell (and that they probably make a lot more profit on).

As emotional blackmail goes, if it can even be characterised as such, it's pretty tame; but maybe that says more about me than anything.....

Anyway, hyperbole and nonsense exists on both sides of this argument, and in any case, its nothing I've ever said. My point is simply this: while gaming won't die without the FLGS, it will lose alot that is valuble -to many of us, anyway; simply accumulating books as cheaply as possible isn't the main goal of gaming for me, but YMMV.

 

[captainjack23]

Less convinient. Store is roughly in the middle of town=roughly same time for everybody. Game session also allows to buy stuff you need while you are at it. Space is also "little" issue. Not many students have big houses capable of having lots of people comfortable(my own apartment could comfortably hold one. Two and things got crowded. Try to hold RPG session there...).

You live in a broom cupboard?

I can't believe that it's that hard to find an area big enough to be able to run a tabletop RPG, sorry.

Apparently, apartments are bigger in canada, and seldom have people sharing them....right ?( I think you left off the second smiley there... )

Besides. Another place to game, is another place to game. And one where the roomemates (or family) won't be inconvenienced by the noise.
And one less place to game is one less place to game.

 

[rust]

Besides, people - at least over here - are far more willing to go to the lo-
cal FLGS for a demonstration of some new game by the publisher's sup-
port team than they would be willing to attend such a session at some un-
known person's home (plus, for younger gamers, their parents usually
are willing to accept an evening at the FLGS, but hardly at some less pub-
lic location) - and the FLGS does not charge a rent for the room.

 

[EDG]

Now. You'll see that they run games: board, card and RPG; some Live.

I see that they run mostly board, card and mini games, and not much in the way of RPGs.

How doesn't that stack up as providing support ?

Some may well do that. I just don't believe for a second that if they disappeared, the whole of tabletop RPGing will collapse overnight.

And you won't get any of that from an online store.

I don't need any of that from an online store. An online store gives me exactly what I want - RPGs at a cheaper price, with the convenience of not even having to go down to a physical shop to buy it. Personally, I don't need anything else. I can find gamers myself, I don't need a public table at a store to do that.

But I don't deny that you may well be in an underserved or already dead area. Possibly there aren't many gamestores there, certainly not enough to encourage stores to be community oriented, perhaps.

I'm not though. The game stores around here are great. They have RPGs, they also have comics, minis, board games, t-shirts, DVDs, manga... the works. They also run card and mini tournaments for those into that sort of thing.

And they'll survive perfectly well if they didn't sell RPGs, which isn't really a large part of their business as it is. But they really aren't the centre of any kind of RPG community at all. People buy books from them, that's it.

 

[captainjack23]

Now. You'll see that they run games: board, card and RPG; some Live.

I see that they run mostly board, card and mini games, and not much in the way of RPGs.

All of that counts. Who says this is about RPG and RPG sales only ? Not me. You are confusing who is posting what, I think.

But regardless, even in the specific squirrel case of rpg support, there they are; not too many the week of a con, tho. Plus open gaming.

So, then, what I described is there. It's all gaming, so it's all support for gaming. Do we agree on that at least ?

How doesn't that stack up as providing support ?

Some may well do that.

Okay, we agree game stores provide support for the community- YAY !

I just don't believe for a second that if they disappeared, the whole of tabletop RPGing will collapse overnight.

My point was the above: gamestores support and enhance the community -they make it a better place.
Not some folderol argument about "destroying gaming".
If you are going to arbitrarily insist on defining my argument, there isn't much point in this, is there ?

And you won't get any of that from an online store.

I don't need any of that from an online store. An online store gives me exactly what I want - RPGs at a cheaper price, with the convenience of not even having to go down to a physical shop to buy it. Personally, I don't need anything else. I can find gamers myself, I don't need a public table at a store to do that.

I never said you did....I said, I did, as do others.
Nor did I ever say that it was the only way to find gamers or to game, as you keep seeming to read; what I said was : One less place to game is one less place to game.

But I don't deny that you may well be in an underserved or already dead area. Possibly there aren't many gamestores there, certainly not enough to encourage stores to be community oriented, perhaps.

I'm not though. The game stores around here are great. They have RPGs, they also have comics, minis, board games, t-shirts, DVDs, manga... the works. They also run card and mini tournaments for those into that sort of thing.

And No RPG support at all ? Or just......."some" ?
See, you say "some" I say "lots" ; we're both trying to shade our points: okay, so I'll bid four in the Bay, five in central LA, and Three in Phoenix, and two in Sacramento. All give Rpg Supprt, by which I mean a couple of scheduled RPG groups per month, plus active open gaming.
Plus (read the next bit carefully) All kinds of support and encouragement for lots of other kinds of gaming than just RPGs.

And they'll survive perfectly well if they didn't sell RPGs, which isn't really a large part of their business as it is. But they really aren't the centre of any kind of RPG community at all. People buy books from them, that's it.

Bad news for them, I guess. But (again) who says this is about RPG and RPG communities? Not me. You are again confusing who is posting what, I think. Why is it that you don't think the cards and mini tournaments you note above don't count as gaming ? In any case, since you seem to really want to make this a very specific discussion about RPG support, consider that the RPG crowd is very likely the same as the cards/board/manga group as well. I mean.....I do lots of gaming and comic and movie things -you know, "Country" and "Western"; don't most gamers ?

Finally, you might want to consider that since you have so clearly made the point that you have no use for or need of a gamestore RPG community, it is just possible you have missed it.

 

[AndrewW]

Less convinient. Store is roughly in the middle of town=roughly same time for everybody. Game session also allows to buy stuff you need while you are at it. Space is also "little" issue. Not many students have big houses capable of having lots of people comfortable(my own apartment could comfortably hold one. Two and things got crowded. Try to hold RPG session there...).

No real need, there's always online play. Convenient with no need to go anywhere, no extra space needed. Plenty of options this way IRC, PBeM (Play By E-mail), PbP (Play by Post), VoIP (Voice Over IP) specialized software, ect.

As for gaming stores there isn't even a bookstore in this city... There's a used bookstore in the village down the road and one in the city just after that and that's it for this area. But I've never found a need for one around here.

 

[EDG]

All of that counts. Who says this is about RPG and RPG sales only ? Not me. You are confusing who is posting what, I think.

Uh, no. We ARE talking about RPGs here. Not minis, card games or anything else - they're not RPGs.

Everyone else here is talking about RPGs and RPG sales only. You're the one who seems to think we're talking about something else.

So, then, what I described is there. It's all gaming, so it's all support for gaming. Do we agree on that at least ?

Yes, except that the discussion isn't and never has been about "gaming" dying - it's about RPGs specifically dying out if they're not on store shelves.

Okay, we agree game stores provide support for the community- YAY !

No we don't. We agree that some game stores may provide support for the community.

Not some folderol argument about "destroying gaming".
If you are going to arbitrarily insist on defining my argument, there isn't much point in this, is there ?

DO pay attention... you're arguing about something else. tneva82 was the one lamenting the doom of the RPG industry. That's what I was responding about, and I was specifically talking about how the RPG industry isn't going anywhere if the stores stop selling RPGs.

And No RPG support at all ? Or just......."some" ?

I don't think there is any at all here actually, and there's at least four gaming stores in town. As far as I'm aware, the shops all run minis and card games here.

But (again) who says this is about RPG and RPG communities? Not me.

Uh, everyone else has been saying it's about that, and as you point out, you haven't. So you've really missed the point of this. The entire discussion has been about RPGs and RPG communities, not anything else. I have never said that I don't think cards and minis count as gaming, I am saying they are not relevant to this discussion because we're not talking about gaming dying, the issue was about RPGs dying.

Hell, I even said that gaming in general is doing fine, and stores will most likely survive if they support all those other things too even if RPGs were to disappear from their shelves.

Finally, you might want to consider that since you have so clearly made the point that you have no use for or need of a gamestore RPG community, it is just possible you have missed it.

And you may want to consider actually reading the thread properly first before you lecture people on what it's about.