Ebooks

[tneva82]

I've never seen any evidence that the survival of the RPG industry is dependent on gaming stores. You know what they play at game stores nowadays? Card games and Mini games. One of the ones around here has huge card and mini game tournaments every week. But I can't even remember the last time I saw anyone playing an RPG regularly at a store.

I see around me less and less stores selling books and less and less players.

Why no players? No visibility whatsoever in stores. No new players coming in and old players leaving the hobby as natural process.

No players, no sales, no stores(reinforcing the process) and eventually no publishers.

Like I said, I really doubt that there are any game stores that JUST sell RPGs anymore.

If there was even stores that would sell RPG's in a first place. Even if among other stores. But I see less and less those as well. And crucially player base is shrinking, shrinking and shrinking.

So even if publishers stopped selling RPGs through the stores I really doubt that the good stores would even really feel much of a pinch as a result. IMO if a store is only selling RPGs then it deserves to die out.

Stores no. Publishers yes when player base diminished to point of near non-existance. No players, no sales. No stores, no players.

I really really doubt that any internet-savvy publishers nowadays would go out of business if they stop selling stuff at game stores.

When there's no players left anymore to buy whom publishers sell? It works now because there's existing player base but that base is shrinking. Once that base is gone there's no more buyers and that base doesn't grow. The visibility of RPG's is shrinking like there's no tomorrow as the sales go more and more to internet where potential new customers are unlikely to find them except by pure chance.

Heck, a lot of small press publishers sell only through the internet anyway via places like DTRPG.

And why they are small? Because they don't sell much. And how are they going to sell to anybody once there's no customer base to sell upon? RPG companies are mainly living off on pre-internet sale customers who came into the hobby while there was still visibility for RPG's. Now there's currently constantly shrinking player base that loses more members than they get new ones. That is NOT sustainable. Sooner or later publishers are going to get in big problems.

 

[EDG]

Why no players? No visibility whatsoever in stores. No new players coming in and old players leaving the hobby as natural process.

Or times are a-changing. Computer RPGs are pretty huge, and one can easily argue that they're just an evolution of tabletops ones. Though you can't tell me that roleplaying isn't popular - D&D even had one big screen movie (OK, they were bad!) and it wasn't one about how a bunch of weirdos play a roleplaying game and go crazy in the process! And also Amazon sells the books, as do a lot of big bookshops.

No players, no sales, no stores(reinforcing the process) and eventually no publishers.

I don't believe that the stores are "reinforcing" anything. They're just another place to buy books from. Amazon or DTRPG can do the same thing.

If there was even stores that would sell RPG's in a first place. Even if among other stores. But I see less and less those as well. And crucially player base is shrinking, shrinking and shrinking.

It's not going to disappear. And frankly I'm not sure it is actually shrinking. D&D's pretty damn popular still.

Stores no. Publishers yes when player base diminished to point of near non-existance. No players, no sales. No stores, no players.

I don't believe that real stores have any role in this process whatsoever.

The visibility of RPG's is shrinking like there's no tomorrow as the sales go more and more to internet where potential new customers are unlikely to find them except by pure chance.

I see no evidence that RPG visibility is shrinking at all. We've never been able to get them from a wider variety of places as you can today.

And why they are small? Because they don't sell much.

They wouldn't sell anything if they sold hard copy books through stores. The margins would be so much smaller and they'd go out of business much sooner. The fact that so many small press publishers are thriving today is because they are selling PDFs directly, and without middlemen and printers sucking out their profits.

I just don't think your opinion is based on reality. I don't see the player base as dwindling at all, it's thriving.

 

[tneva82]

Or times are a-changing. Computer RPGs are pretty huge, and one can easily argue that they're just an evolution of tabletops ones.

If those can be called RPG's. More of a hack&slash games. No ROLE playing whatsoever.

Though you can't tell me that roleplaying isn't popular - D&D even had one big screen movie (OK, they were bad!) and it wasn't one about how a bunch of weirdos play a roleplaying game and go crazy in the process! And also Amazon sells the books, as do a lot of big bookshops.

Popular now yes but with constantly diminishing player base. Popular now doesn't mean popular in future. Issue with net sales isn't current situation but that it's going to cripple player base in future. No sales in future, no publishers in future.

I don't believe that the stores are "reinforcing" anything. They're just another place to buy books from. Amazon or DTRPG can do the same thing.

It's not about sales per se but visibility. As sales goes to internet new hobbyists don't find them except by pure chance. Diminishing player base. Then there's no players to buy books and without players buying there's no publishers.

Right now there's more players leaving than coming in and the more sales goes to internet the faster that trend continues. How long before there's no big publishers and only books released are small hobbyist books with variable quantity produced at their own expense doing little if any profits(especially if you consider the time spent writing it which could have been spent doing more profitable reqular work)? What when companies like Wizard and Mongoose can't sell any more of their books?

It's not going to disappear. And frankly I'm not sure it is actually shrinking. D&D's pretty damn popular still.

Handful of players here and there(forced to play through internet due to no local gaming community) doesn't generate enough sales to upkeep expenses of publishing company. And D&D is popular now but it's not now that is the issue but future. It's popular yes but less new blood than old blood leaving the hobby. Run following C program once and see what it prints. That's rough simplification what's happening with RPG gaming base.

#include <stdio.h>

void main() {
for(int i=10000;i>=0;i--) printf("%i\n", i);
}

I see no evidence that RPG visibility is shrinking at all. We've never been able to get them from a wider variety of places as you can today.

Less players than several years ago. That counts as shrinking in my books. Maybe you call it with some other terms but when player base is smaller than it was year ago and next year it's smaller than now what else could it be but shrinking? And alas shrinking is reinforcing loop. As player base shrinks gaming groups split up due to player shortage which is going to cause remaining players to quit as well which is going to cause player base in that city/town shrinking more until it's totally dead. Which is going to cripple new growth as there's not going to be new players in that city all that likely in future due to no gaming group to play with.

Alas I see that happening all the time with remaining players getting older and older. Haven't seen new young players, ie those who would be buying in the future, for a long time.

Ah well. I might just about get enough fun out of RPG's before industry dies but next generation is going to see death of RPG's.

 

[EDG]

You see death. I see evolution. Big difference.

 

[tneva82]

You see death. I see evolution. Big difference.

How is constantly less players than before evolution? RPG's need gaming groups. Afterall it's hardly game you can play solo...(wish you could. Would help me get some games as well!) There's constantly less and less players who gets spread thinner and thinner. Soon players are more of a book collectors until they get bored on wasting money on books that are only read once and then put to hold that nice dream called game session.

 

[EDG]

In my experience, books and stores don't make players. Players make players.

Meanwhile, millions of people are playing games on computers that would pretty much be exactly the same as what they'd be playing on a tabletop, but with pretty graphics and a computer doing the dicerolling.

 

[The Chef]

from my point of view the lack of stores that actually played traveller in my area when i moved here caused a big concern for me. I moved 400miles from my regular players with a desire to find a good gaming group in the area, but the stores were less than helpful in me locating one.

still on the lookout for a regular haunt.

on the otherhand i agree with EDG, roleplaying games are going through an evolution as they must to keep up with modern habits. from expirience it is easier to buy books/pdf's on line than it is to travel 20odd miles to pick up a copy in my gaming store. i do do that trek when something good comes out (like MGT) and will order my copies before purchase to ensure i have stock. but with many online retailers out there as long as i can procure my items somewhere i am happy.

Chef

 

[tneva82]

In my experience, books and stores don't make players. Players make players.

Meanwhile, millions of people are playing games on computers that would pretty much be exactly the same as what they'd be playing on a tabletop, but with pretty graphics and a computer doing the dicerolling.

And slower as hell.

Sorry. Been trying online gaming but it just isn't as convinient and easy as good old tabletop playing.

Computer doing dice rolls? Hah! When has that become that hard? No wonder if RPG's are dying if rolling dice and doing simple 1+1 math is too hard for new generation. Maybe it's not problem about stores afterall. Is humanity becoming too dump then? Dice rolling is the fastest part about RPG's. No need for any help there.

 

[Gee4orce]

The best approach would be to offer a free PDF download to those who buy the print version - or maybe offer a discounted bundle deal.

I much prefer PDF for reference, but like to have a print copy for reading. I'm not going to buy the same book twice at full price.

I just pre-ordered Starblazer Adventure (FATE) and they are giving away a PDF to everybody who orders the book. Excellent.

 

[tneva82]

The best approach would be to offer a free PDF download to those who buy the print version - or maybe offer a discounted bundle deal.

I much prefer PDF for reference, but like to have a print copy for reading. I'm not going to buy the same book twice at full price.

I just pre-ordered Starblazer Adventure (FATE) and they are giving away a PDF to everybody who orders the book. Excellent.

Wouldn't fix the issue(b&m just can't compete against online stores) but other than that I agree with the idea. Would love to get PDF's for later browsing but traditional book is the one more convinient for me when it comes to playing the game(well IF I would get a game...Maybe PDF would be just as good anyway since there's nobody around here(if anywhere in Finland at all) who plays traveller anyway).

 

[Lorcan Nagle]

Catalyst Game Labs - current publishers of Shadowrun and BattleTech and a host of interesting looking upcoming board, war and role-playing games sell PDFs of their books before the physical books come out - the most recent core BattleTech expansion has been out in PDF since december and the hardback's not out for at least another couple of months. They don't distribute to Amazon, only via their own online store and to physical shops.

They've found that PDF sales have not negatively impaced physical sales at all, and im many cases has helped them.

 

[EDG]

Sorry. Been trying online gaming but it just isn't as convinient and easy as good old tabletop playing.

You kidding? Maybe you're thinking of just doing actual tabletop gaming on a computer, but I'm not. I'm talking about things like MMORPGs, Neverwinter Nights, all that stuff.

Computer doing dice rolls? Hah! When has that become that hard? No wonder if RPG's are dying if rolling dice and doing simple 1+1 math is too hard for new generation. Maybe it's not problem about stores afterall. Is humanity becoming too dump then? Dice rolling is the fastest part about RPG's. No need for any help there.

Again, you kidding? Try doing combats where you have a pile of modifiers and buffs on you and you're trying to keep track of them all - it's slow as hell. I needed a whole page of customised tables keeping track of them all just to play my fighter in D&D3.5.

 

[tneva82]

Sorry. Been trying online gaming but it just isn't as convinient and easy as good old tabletop playing.

You kidding? Maybe you're thinking of just doing actual tabletop gaming on a computer, but I'm not. I'm talking about things like MMORPGs, Neverwinter Nights, all that stuff.

Aah those. Well those aren't really RPG's. There's very little to no ROLE playing. More akin to story telling game or in case of World of Warcraft hack&slash(I'll kring every time somebody claims that's ROLE playing game. Yeah right. Go to place X, hack&slash constantly reappearing foes until mission accomplished and return to place X. Repeat 'till you are level 80. Start fighting PVP combats against other players grinding money and rewards for bigger and better equipment. When you get tired of character start new character with same process. Where's that ROLE playing supposed to be?).

And those aren't exactly helping publishers either. Or what income Mongoose can hope to get from them for example?

Again, you kidding? Try doing combats where you have a pile of modifiers and buffs on you and you're trying to keep track of them all - it's slow as hell. I needed a whole page of customised tables keeping track of them all just to play my fighter in D&D3.5.

What's so hard? Never found that particulary difficult. Of course one could wonder how good example of ROLE playing D&D is or wether that's just hack&slash tactical board game.

 

[EDG]

If you're going be arbitrarily deciding what a roleplaying game is based on your own tastes, then there's not much point in continuing this. Fact is, things like MMOs and CRPGs are a direct linear evolution of tabletop games. Heck, KotOR even had the d20 mechanic built into the game engine.

 

[tneva82]

If you're going be arbitrarily deciding what a roleplaying game is based on your own tastes, then there's not much point in continuing this. Fact is, things like MMOs and CRPGs are a direct linear evolution of tabletop games. Heck, KotOR even had the d20 mechanic built into the game engine.

Yes but what role you are playing there? You are just following story determined by creators of game without free will.

In any case how does that precicely help publishers like Mongoose? Player base abandons p&p RPG's in favour of computer "role" playing games and it just shrinks the player base further. So player base shrinks even faster with result of publishers soon finding nobody to buy their books and then going out of business. So wether they are RPG's or not p&p RPG's are going to be dead business very soon.

So if we accept they are RPG's it actually just worsen your position because those games are diminishing p&p player base and killing the market of RPG's. Won't be that long until RPG's as we know them now is just extinct curiosity. Something to be noted in history books only replaced by computer games where you follow set story without ability to alter how it goes with only goal being hacking next set of monster and getting newest equipment. Oh and paying arm and teeth to play it each month as well.

 

[EDG]

You know, people have been saying that the tabletop RPG industry has been dying for years now... and oh look, it hasn't. It's still here, more mainstream than ever. Heck, I play WoW a LOT, and I still play tabletop D&D too. They're not mutually exclusive, and one can actually feed the other.

I think rumours of its death or of its impending doom are greatly exaggerated . Things are changing, but I can't see that everyone will abandon it. And either way, I don't think Mongoose is suffering or will suffer much if game stores close down.

As for paying "arm and teeth", your average MMO is about $15 a month. So you can get about three months of MMO play for the same cost as your average RPG corebook.

 

[tneva82]

You know, people have been saying that the tabletop RPG industry has been dying for years now... and oh look, it hasn't. It's still here, more mainstream than ever. Heck, I play WoW a LOT, and I still play tabletop D&D too. They're not mutually exclusive, and one can actually feed the other.

Yeah. If you think sessions which consist "go to place A, kill all the monsters, loot them, repeat 'till session is over" much fun. That might keep p&p games alive for a while until players realise finally that for that sort of hack&slash game computers are good. But if you want free story lines then MMORPG's can't do that.

Show me MMORPG where I can be infiltrating crime organisation one session and leading thousands strong mercenary force to conquer planet in another. You can't.

And either way, I don't think Mongoose is suffering or will suffer much if game stores close down.

They will when player base goes down. MMORPG base isn't looking for games where you go through complex plots. They want to log in for few hours, hack&slash their way through monsters, loot them, get new equipment and continue same hack&slash pattern over and over again.

They are the ones who get bored if there's not combat within 5 minutes of starting it. Actually if there's more than 5 minutes of non-combat they get bored to death.

As for paying "arm and teeth", your average MMO is about $15 a month. So you can get about three months of MMO play for the same cost as your average RPG corebook.

3 months vs years.

 

[Dave Chase]

Well, RPG will always be alive in some format. Face to face tabletop is very difficult in some places or even finding the same time to play.

Recently, I have gotten involved with Traveller RPG via messenging. It is providing some fun and it is a bit different at the same time.

So, format is not as important (IMO) as achieving your desire out of the game. If hack and slash while 'pretending' to be a Norse fighter, or secert agent, OR solving quests via FaceBook Games or some MMO game OR just PbP or RPG client, IT Is more about the game and meeting the players needs (along with the GM needs) that is important.

I like a bit of it all. I miss the great large table sitting around with friends playing, BS and eating lots of food.

So, this instant messenging is making up for some of that missing element.

Dave Chase

 

[Emperor Herdan]

Well, RPG will always be alive in some format. Face to face tabletop is very difficult in some places or even finding the same time to play.

Recently, I have gotten involved with Traveller RPG via messenging. It is providing some fun and it is a bit different at the same time.

So, format is not as important (IMO) as achieving your desire out of the game. If hack and slash while 'pretending' to be a Norse fighter, or secert agent, OR solving quests via FaceBook Games or some MMO game OR just PbP or RPG client, IT Is more about the game and meeting the players needs (along with the GM needs) that is important.

I like a bit of it all. I miss the great large table sitting around with friends playing, BS and eating lots of food.

So, this instant messenging is making up for some of that missing element.

Dave Chase

Yep I also miss the FtF contact, but I've been running a game via Skype (voice) and ScreenMonkey (basic table top, using jpg images for the ambaince/ deckplans/ maps), with the occasional home made pdf's (timelines, etc) and emails.

Works well, and the group ranges from Louisiana to Texas to Victoria BC Canada so the distance isn't a factor... so except for the lack of drink/food... not too bad an experence at all, at all. If you can't get FtF, this isn't a bad compromise.

Take care

E. Herdan

 

[EDG]

Like I said, players make players - not books, not publishers, not stores. Players.

If you don't have a game, it's up to you to get out there and find people to play with. They are there. I dare say that many of them are probably bemoaning the lack of players too, while busily blaming everyone else but themselves for not having them. If you don't use all available tools - including the internet - and make every effort to track them down, then of course you're not going to find them.

Of course the other issue is that as people get older they just don't have as much time to devote to playing due to jobs, family, and other responsibilities. There's probably quite a few younger gamers out there, but older gamers may simply prefer to play with people in their own age group (and vice versa), so that's a factor too. But if you want gaming to be a priority, you'll have to make it a priority - RPGs require a lot of time and effort and commitment to play after all.

Either way, railing against computer games or PDFs won't do a thing to help you find a game. Getting out there and looking for one will, though. And if you have to look harder than you did 10 or 20 years ago, so be it.