O.k. I've played a couple of games against the Narns now (against a couple of different players) and have been ripped to pieces by their e-mines. One thing that happened in the last game that I played was that my opponent dropped an e-mine to get 2 fighter stands that were base to base with one of his ships by targetting a region of space so as not to encompas his ship in the blast, whilst I understand that the rules say that you cant target the e-mines at an empty region of space the use of them in this example would require some very exact targetting (as both the ship and the fighters were moving) to at least IMHO to require a crew quality check to land 'on target' or the target point would deviate. Any opinions on this?
E-Mines Query
- Thread starter wierdo
- Start date
hmm, why is it when someone looses to someone they seem to blame the weapons/abilities of that race, rather than think "how can I beat that"
and why would an advanced alien races weapon system deviate? heck if the US and British army can drop guided missiles within mere inches (allegedly) then why would a spacefaring race not be able to?
and why would an advanced alien races weapon system deviate? heck if the US and British army can drop guided missiles within mere inches (allegedly) then why would a spacefaring race not be able to?
2nd_ed_hiffano said:
Well my response to that point is that the current armed forces accuracy is, in part, due to the skill of the crew firing the weapon - hence the suggestion of a crew quality check. Also I have no problem (well mostly no problem
) with the e-mine automatically landing on target when fired directly at a ship as this provides a set point of reference for the targeting systems, however it does seem a bit much to say it will always land exactly where you want, especially when firing so that the blast area just encompasses a stand of fighters which missing the ship they were right on top of.Also, I'm not meaning to come accross as a sore loser or anything - I openly acknowledge that the losses I have suffered to the Narn fleets were not purely down to e-mines
It just seems a bit to much to me that the center point for the blast can be targetted in such an exact fashion with no chance of the gunner making a mess of things Fair enough. ok then, e-mines aside, how did your opponents beat you? what ships did he take. Lets forget the mines as the rule ain't likely to change, and instead look at how we can exploit his ship choices and tactics to beat him, and um, what were you playing, kinda an important fact eh?
(well I know how my e-mines beat ya!)
from our game, I would say you needed to concentrate more on destroying a ship at a time, instead of spreading your fire as much as you did. The Adira was a gamble, and one which i felt would pay off after you came hurtling round the planet (for reference though, lumbering ships don't get an extra turn from a slingshot) you were just hugely unlucky to be on two of my best dice rolls ever from the G'Vrahn beam, not to mention that entire broadside you rolled that missed!! I had a lot of ships left on the table, but all but 3 were quite mauled, hence my issu about taking down a ship at a time. alo the squadroned vorchans, whilst meaning a lot of fire, also do make them perfect mine fodder. I would certainly consider on that fleet, adding suluusts fro ranged beams, you "might" have been able to take out the dag'kars!
(well I know how my e-mines beat ya!)
from our game, I would say you needed to concentrate more on destroying a ship at a time, instead of spreading your fire as much as you did. The Adira was a gamble, and one which i felt would pay off after you came hurtling round the planet (for reference though, lumbering ships don't get an extra turn from a slingshot) you were just hugely unlucky to be on two of my best dice rolls ever from the G'Vrahn beam, not to mention that entire broadside you rolled that missed!! I had a lot of ships left on the table, but all but 3 were quite mauled, hence my issu about taking down a ship at a time. alo the squadroned vorchans, whilst meaning a lot of fire, also do make them perfect mine fodder. I would certainly consider on that fleet, adding suluusts fro ranged beams, you "might" have been able to take out the dag'kars!
Yeah in hindsight I'd have probably been better turning my entire right flank and making a run around the planet! That would, in theory, at least have given me a chance to get a round or two of fire in without worrying about your big guns.
IIRC I didn't turn the Adira on the turn that did the slingshot, I think I just used it to get the extra movement but I've slept since then so I could be wrong
The actual game that the example I used above came in was one where I was playing with my Brakiri fleet against a friend of mine over here in Donny. In future I think I'll try closing alot faster, but then I trade the e-mines for all of the other weapons at their disposal!
That would, in theory, at least have given me a chance to get a round or two of fire in without worrying about your big guns.IIRC I didn't turn the Adira on the turn that did the slingshot, I think I just used it to get the extra movement but I've slept since then so I could be wrong
The actual game that the example I used above came in was one where I was playing with my Brakiri fleet against a friend of mine over here in Donny. In future I think I'll try closing alot faster, but then I trade the e-mines for all of the other weapons at their disposal!
2nd_ed_hiffano said:
Thats kindof my point, the weapon will fire at the point in space as designated by the gunner/crew. If that point has been selected incorrectly the weapon wont care - it will very acuratly fire at the wrong target point. Human error (or in this case "Sentient Bieng Error"
) would still be possible.Sulfurdown
Mongoose
One thing that's bothered me about the energy mines is that no other weapon can be used to target your own ships (most likely to avoid Fire Ship situations and more importantly, questions about XP and VP). It's written right into the rules. Only with energy mines you're saying that the races that utilize mines can - and do - fire on their own ships. I know the "it's targeting open space, not the ship," but since you know the size of the explosion and you can pinpoint it's origin - you ARE targeting your own ship and everything else in the blast radius.2nd_ed_hiffano said:
I'm all for E-Mines deviating, especially when it comes to using them against ships with stealth. They are ultra precise against ships they shouldn't be, as they ignore stealth and don't require a stealth roll to use, at least as far as I can tell. I don't mind their use against stealth, it should be spray and pray though. Even if you say that Stealth is only affects sensors and not vision, I'd say you'd be hard pressed to make an accurate shot on visuals alone, especially at the distances represented. How can you make an accurate shot against something you can't get a targeting solution on?
Basic trigonometry.Delthos said:
At this scale the mines are suppost to have a huge area of affect, being off target by a few hundred meters won't have much of an affect.
The problem with scattering e-mines is that they are normaly too valuable (one shot or slow loading) so players would rarely use them.
Basic trigonometry won't work as the ships wouldn't be in visual range. You're forgetting these ships are supposed to be no bigger than the stem of the base. You can't use basic trigonometry if you can't see the ship because of distance and your advanced targeting computers/sensors can't get a fix on the ship to determine distance. Even if you can see the enemy ship, there's really nothing to use as a point of reference to judge distance in space, so you are back to best guess and needing a deviation roll.
You do bring up a good point though, against ships without stealth it's not as big of a deal if they don't deviate.
What I'd really like to see is that you have to make a stealth check to use energy mines on ships with stealth (using the lowest stealth rating of all ships in range), unless there is another ship without stealth in range of the template or you've achieved a targeting lock on at least one of the ships with stealth that is within range of the template. This would satisfy my dislike of the energy mines as they stand, as you've now got something to use for targeting data.
You do bring up a good point though, against ships without stealth it's not as big of a deal if they don't deviate.
What I'd really like to see is that you have to make a stealth check to use energy mines on ships with stealth (using the lowest stealth rating of all ships in range), unless there is another ship without stealth in range of the template or you've achieved a targeting lock on at least one of the ships with stealth that is within range of the template. This would satisfy my dislike of the energy mines as they stand, as you've now got something to use for targeting data.
Locutus9956
Mongoose
And this for me is still the most irritatingly silly argument I keep seeing come up: 'Its not in visual range its bazillions of kilometers away'
Yes space is big
Yes in REALITY space battles WOULD probably be fought at extremely long ranges
But in EVERY BATTLE SEEN IN B5 its close range. Visual range at that. The game is based on a TV show not on what would REALLY happen.
Im not saying emines shouldnt scatter or they should be pinpoint accurate just that for me the '20000 km range' doesnt hold water, scale is NOT a good argument since frankly the plantes and so on are way off anyway
).
And the ship stem thing is a matter of convenience rather than a specific 'it just the stem thing' as suggested in BFG....
Yes space is big
Yes in REALITY space battles WOULD probably be fought at extremely long ranges
But in EVERY BATTLE SEEN IN B5 its close range. Visual range at that. The game is based on a TV show not on what would REALLY happen.
Im not saying emines shouldnt scatter or they should be pinpoint accurate just that for me the '20000 km range' doesnt hold water, scale is NOT a good argument since frankly the plantes and so on are way off anyway
).And the ship stem thing is a matter of convenience rather than a specific 'it just the stem thing' as suggested in BFG....
Sulfurdown
Mongoose
...scorpioni said:Fair enough
... can't sleep.. the ship will punch/shoot me... can't sleep.... so terrible...
Locutus9956
Mongoose
scorpioni said:Fair enough
Oh.... my..... god..... you poor poor man....
You need to watch some proper B5 urgently to wash away the horror that was Legend of the Rangers quickly
Battles in B5 were generally fought well withing visual range (some were at fairly LONG visual range but still fairly close in in spacial terms). Now ok the MAIN reason for this would be that well, it just LOOKS cooler but the game is nonetheless based on the show rather than 'reality'
