E-Mine split

[KennyBoy]

Now, I know that you cannot split the dice when attacking with an E-Mine. However, as the Pak'Mara "Plasma Web" is created by combining fire from weapons that can can be split... could you split fire from a squadron of Pak'Mara ships to create multiple - albeit smaller - Plasma Webs, thus multiple E-mines?

Example: 3 Hurr Gunships would normally be able to combine fire to create a Plasma Web doing 18AD (the combined 36 dice halved as per the rule)
However, could the same squadron split their original 36 dice into, say, 3 groups of 12 dice, which could then be combined to make 3 Plasma Webs of 6AD each?

 

[Greg Smith]

Nope: http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=32138&highlight=web

 

[H]

how depressing that the HUrr of all people, can out e-mine the same number of G'Quans, heck, they out e-mine 3 KaBinTaks.

this is quite clearly on the basis that the Narn mines can fire once, and once only. . . ever... on those ships. . .

 

[Lord David the Denied]

That's because the Narn E-mines are energy mines, whereas the pak'ma'ra plasma web merely uses the e-mine trait.

 

[KennyBoy]

Exactly!

Greg, you said a definitive Nope on the strength of Bryan's argument, but I feel his logic is flawed... he doesn't see why the Pak would fire Smaller gouts of plasma to create smaller webs... why not?
As I understand it, it is not one, but numerous Plasma cannons in each firing arc that makes up the amount of AD. Why wouldn't they commit a number of guns to create a web in one spot, and a number of guns to create another within the same firing arc... if they were fighting a stealthy or agile enemy, they would try to maximise the coverage of fire...

Also, despite Dave's numerous Bumps, Matt didn't second Bryan's conclusions - not that he has to, of course, but it would certainly have put a definite end to the debate...

 

[Greg Smith]

I was only pointing towards a previous ruling. To be honest, I don't know eonough about the techo-babble behind the plasma web. The emine was a way of recreating what AoG gave the pak, IIRC.

 

[Foxmeister]

O/T I know, but since the original question has already been answered, it doesn't seem too bad, but I'm of the opinion that the major problem with the Narn e-mines is not the area effect, or that it ignores dodge/stealth/whatever, it is that they are far too long ranged. This promotes their use as a stand-off and snipe weapon.

I wouldn't mind seeing the Narn the O/S traits (possibly S/L too) from the e-mines on most of their ships, in return for having their range slashed to say 12". It would certainly remove the issue of the G'Quan being used as a sniper if it had to get close to actually use them, but simulataneously give the G'Quan a usable secondary weapon.

Note that I'm specifically looking at Narn e-mines here, not any of the multitude of other e-mine variants that has cropped up.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Greg Smith]

E-mines can't be split for game balance reasons - it would be very easy to split an emine into 1AD bursts and spread the radii across the whole board - and so kill dozens of fighters.

 

[Foxmeister]

E-mines can't be split for game balance reasons - it would be very easy to split an emine into 1AD bursts and spread the radii across the whole board - and so kill dozens of fighters.

In my experience, unless you are fighting Gaim, it's almost impossible to get more than a couple fighters with an e-mine, since most players will either keep their flights spaced well apart, or will not bother launching them until the mines are no longer a threat.

Not that I'm advocating splitting e-mine fire though!

Regards,

Dave

 

[Lord David the Denied]

In my experience, unless you are fighting Gaim, it's almost impossible to get more than a couple fighters with an e-mine, since most players will either keep their flights spaced well apart, or will not bother launching them until the mines are no longer a threat.

Not that I'm advocating splitting e-mine fire though!

Regards,

Dave

Don't help much with those pulsar mines, though. Am I the only one that thinks they're unfair? At a stroke they render fighters useless against the Narn.

 

[Foxmeister]

Don't help much with those pulsar mines, though. Am I the only one that thinks they're unfair? At a stroke they render fighters useless against the Narn.

I agree with the basic sentiment, however, IMHO, the G'Karith is a one trick pony anyway and is only any good against fighters. (Ok two trick since it can help in breaking stealth!). And there's still nothing stopping you keeping your fighters spread more than 6" apart unless you have an awful lot of them!

The only time I'd take them now is if I know I'm facing Gaim, since against anything else there are much better ways of spending a Raid point (e.g. Var'Nic, Dag'Kar etc).

Regards,

Dave

 

[katadder]

and as against the Gaim you can leave fighter launches until your ship is in their speed range or near enough not to matter as fighters get launched in the end phase they can be on the target before any e-mine fire.

 

[lastbesthope]

Now, I know that you cannot split the dice when attacking with an E-Mine. However, as the Pak'Mara "Plasma Web" is created by combining fire from weapons that can can be split... could you split fire from a squadron of Pak'Mara ships to create multiple - albeit smaller - Plasma Webs, thus multiple E-mines?

No, The E-mine trait is where the no splitting of E-mine attacks is staed. And the special rules on Plasma Web clearly state that the weapons used in the Plasma Web attack gain the E-mine trait.

LBH

 

[KennyBoy]

Yes, I can see the logic behind why an E-Mine's cannot be split - it is, after all, a large, but singular, explosive device hurtled into space.
But, the point I was making, is that the Web gains the E-Mine trait to reflect the fact that the Pak are filling an area of space with weapons fire; it is not a one shot, one target approach...

As a Minbari player, I'm happy to keep them as is, I was just sitting at work and my mind started to wander, and this led to the question. I tend to not post much in the way of questions and optional rules etc... as I think that most threads are ignored by the powers that be, and Greg can usually answer most of my queries.
However, sometimes, I get a bee in my bonnet about something and want another opinion... just like this

 

[lastbesthope]

Yes, I can see the logic behind why an E-Mine's cannot be split - it is, after all, a large, but singular, explosive device hurtled into space.
But, the point I was making, is that the Web gains the E-Mine trait to reflect the fact that the Pak are filling an area of space with weapons fire; it is not a one shot, one target approach...

Well I wasn't arguing fluff I was just stating the rules. :lol:

LBH

 

[Da Boss]

Now, I know that you cannot split the dice when attacking with an E-Mine. However, as the Pak'Mara "Plasma Web" is created by combining fire from weapons that can can be split... could you split fire from a squadron of Pak'Mara ships to create multiple - albeit smaller - Plasma Webs, thus multiple E-mines?

No, The E-mine trait is where the no splitting of E-mine attacks is staed. And the special rules on Plasma Web clearly state that the weapons used in the Plasma Web attack gain the E-mine trait.

LBH

however you could argue the split happens before the weapon gains the E-mine trait?

 

[lastbesthope]

A valid point DB, I can see that line of reasoning.

LBH

 

[nekomata fuyu]

Yet again, I think that this is a case of a single trait trying to do too much - emine should focus on being a blast effect.
The lack of splitting is due to the weapon being one large shot rather than lots of little shots, and this effect should be covered by its own trait. This trait would also be applicable to non-emine weapons such as the Shadow PK missile.

 

[Ripple]

Agree, this game to often tries to load multiple effects into single traits, and then shoe horns new concepts into existing traits and things don't go quite right. Advanced Jump Point is another trait that does this, should have been accurate placement, jump disruption resistance and jump engine.

E-mine - as a matter of balance, I'd be against splitting. Against the Narn you can usually kill the e-mine ships and launch. Against the Pak, take too much, you'd be launching fighters at the end of the game.

I disagree that you can keep your fighters separated, at least if you want to be able to do anything with them.

E-mine would be better if it just reduced dodge.

Range on the e-mines is not the issue. It's that they reduce ships in size dramatically by negating dodge, a normally highly valued defense.

Ripple

 

[Foxmeister]

Range on the e-mines is not the issue. It's that they reduce ships in size dramatically by negating dodge, a normally highly valued defense.

So does Accurate! Just because something is an effective counter doesn't make it all bad. Also, it makes no sense from a realism point of view that an area effect weapon can be dodged.

The real issue is that e-mines are just becoming too commonplace in the game.

Regards,

Dave