E-Mine split
- Thread starter KennyBoy
- Start date
aye, it's beyond a joke really, ooh we don't know how to do this trait, I know, lets make it an e-mine. . . severe lack of imagination, or (because I know someone might feel insulted about that comment) there are too many constraints on "new" things for the game.
we even lost the variation in e-mines that you got from standard, ship breaker, ion to standardise.
we even lost the variation in e-mines that you got from standard, ship breaker, ion to standardise.
Lord David the Denied
Mongoose
Foxmeister said:
That depends entirely on the size of the area affected, the speed of the dodging ship and the length of time it has to get the hell out of the way. As it is, you can see the e-mine in flight on sensors the same as any other weapon, so moving to evade isn't impossible. A succesful dodge should move the dodging ship outside the e-mine blast area, though.
Methos5000
Mongoose
It would be nice if they added a little more variation to some of the weapons instead of just giving new flashy weapons the emine trait.
Like couldn't Abbai Mine just have a hunter-seeker type ability? It locks onto the first enemy ship that enters its sphere of influence and can cause crits - but only against Engines and Weapons, to reflect that the Abbai intent to defend their territory by disabling and disarming the enemy ships to make them incapable of fighting, not to just destroy them outright (granted high enough crits in those categories could severly damage ships and crews but the DD emines they use now will already cause more damage and may also damage Abbai ships.)
Maybe the EA fusion missile being a O/S Quad Damage (it is a nuclear missile essentially isn't it?) Precise, SAP. With a special rule that a natural roll of 6 on the attack table causes 2 crits not one(a roll of 5 would still give it one crit being it is precise).
Not sure it they balance out or not or even if they are good ideas or not but these are some ideas that took maybe a minute or two to think up and gives a different variety of weapons instead of just saying - "well this race needs something new, Lets give them an emine weapon." I know that is a generalization but I think both the EA and Abbai for example could have been given something unique as a special weapon instead of just dropping the emine trait in the weapon line.
I just wish it wasn't emines - a weapon that ignores almost all the first lines of defense for ships (Stealth/Dodge/Interceptors) - getting spread around all over. I'm sure the Narn players aren't to happy either, first they lose their variant emines now they are just one of a growing number of races to have them. Emines just aren't special anymore...just more annoying.
Like couldn't Abbai Mine just have a hunter-seeker type ability? It locks onto the first enemy ship that enters its sphere of influence and can cause crits - but only against Engines and Weapons, to reflect that the Abbai intent to defend their territory by disabling and disarming the enemy ships to make them incapable of fighting, not to just destroy them outright (granted high enough crits in those categories could severly damage ships and crews but the DD emines they use now will already cause more damage and may also damage Abbai ships.)
Maybe the EA fusion missile being a O/S Quad Damage (it is a nuclear missile essentially isn't it?) Precise, SAP. With a special rule that a natural roll of 6 on the attack table causes 2 crits not one(a roll of 5 would still give it one crit being it is precise).
Not sure it they balance out or not or even if they are good ideas or not but these are some ideas that took maybe a minute or two to think up and gives a different variety of weapons instead of just saying - "well this race needs something new, Lets give them an emine weapon." I know that is a generalization but I think both the EA and Abbai for example could have been given something unique as a special weapon instead of just dropping the emine trait in the weapon line.
I just wish it wasn't emines - a weapon that ignores almost all the first lines of defense for ships (Stealth/Dodge/Interceptors) - getting spread around all over. I'm sure the Narn players aren't to happy either, first they lose their variant emines now they are just one of a growing number of races to have them. Emines just aren't special anymore...just more annoying.
Foxmeister
Mongoose
Lord David the Denied said:
As you say, that would involve *moving* out of the area effect which could be a move of just over 3" in the shooting phase, whereas a Dodge, in game terms, represents a small "jink" to get out of the way of an incoming projectile/beam.
Let's assume for a moment that you do allow a ship to move out of the area affect when it dodges. What happens:
1. When you don't dodge all the hits? You should either be in the area effect, or not. I can see an argument for saying that you got some of the way out, but not in time to avoid the entire effect of the e-mine, but that's pushing the abstraction a bit IMHO.
2. What direction do you move in? If you move out of the area, where are you going to end up? Who decides?
3. What orientation does the dodging ship have after it has moved? (related to 2 above)
Regards,
Dave
Actually having dodge effect a number of weapons with the e-mine trait would be fine. Don't look at them as weapons that give a equal damage everywhere but as a series of dense and light areas of damage. In some ways we already do this with ship explosions, and it would work just fine for the plasma web system, which should have plenty of holes.
How about if there is another ship in the area... should you be able to maneuver to shield?
E-mine inappropriately combined Area of Effect and Negates Dodge.
As far as dodge being usable necessitating moving the ship, well I don't agree. Movement is already pretty abstract. To me a dodging ship would indicate that the timing of the ships final position and the mines detonation didn't quite line up. Ships don't teleport around the table the way it looks from playing, they are moving and shooting as they can... just like TTT is simulating. Especially when a mine is catching three ships at the extreme edges of the blast, I could easily see that as mistiming, course changes by the incoming ships, damage to a thruster making the acceleration uncertain.
Just saying, we place a blast template as if all the ships stop and pause at a certain point for everyone to fire, that's harder for me to swallow than the that the whitestar was perhaps a inch farther back along its path when the mine actually went off.
I mean if everyone is able to make these weapons, why wouldn't everyone have one on every ship as a last ditch fighter clearance weapon? Why would stand off carriers even exist?
Ripple
How about if there is another ship in the area... should you be able to maneuver to shield?
E-mine inappropriately combined Area of Effect and Negates Dodge.
As far as dodge being usable necessitating moving the ship, well I don't agree. Movement is already pretty abstract. To me a dodging ship would indicate that the timing of the ships final position and the mines detonation didn't quite line up. Ships don't teleport around the table the way it looks from playing, they are moving and shooting as they can... just like TTT is simulating. Especially when a mine is catching three ships at the extreme edges of the blast, I could easily see that as mistiming, course changes by the incoming ships, damage to a thruster making the acceleration uncertain.
Just saying, we place a blast template as if all the ships stop and pause at a certain point for everyone to fire, that's harder for me to swallow than the that the whitestar was perhaps a inch farther back along its path when the mine actually went off.
I mean if everyone is able to make these weapons, why wouldn't everyone have one on every ship as a last ditch fighter clearance weapon? Why would stand off carriers even exist?
Ripple
Foxmeister
Mongoose
Ripple said:
By the same token, if almost everyone can make an interceptor system, why isn't every ship equipped with them. Ditto AF systems. Ditto Stealth etc, etc, etc. You can take that sort of argument where ever you like and apply it to almost anything.
The only saving grace of the EA nuclear "e-mine" is that I can't see too many people actually taking them over something that can be used multiple times.
Regards,
Dave
Narn are really the only race that should have acess to them. I think it's so much bollock's that it's creeped into a lot of fleet lists. Can't give vorlons a carrier or even carry fighters but let's give out lot's of e-mines.
That's the thing i hate the most about the gaim is e-mine's everywhere plus some other thing's. There are plenty of other weapon trait's out there that could of been used to make a unique weapon.
But then im a self confessed e-mine hater.
That's the thing i hate the most about the gaim is e-mine's everywhere plus some other thing's. There are plenty of other weapon trait's out there that could of been used to make a unique weapon.
But then im a self confessed e-mine hater.
nekomata fuyu
Mongoose
This is pretty much my thinking. The Narn expanding-sphere-of-death emine would be representable by Blast + Accurate, whereas a ship explosion's lots-of-bits-of-death would be just Blast.Ripple said:
With regards to the Narn, just because a race has something as part of their theme, it doesn't mean that they should get sole access. The Narn use emines a lot, mostly very powerful versions. This is a different theme to the Pak'ma'ra and their "we don't have emines, but we can emulate them if we work in squadrons", or the Gaim with their low powered blasts.
Anyone else just doesn't use blast weaponry in large quantities. This does not mean that they shouldn't use them at all. the Brakiri have a single ship. The EA have to lose a multi-shot precise weapon in order to get a single shot blast, and can only do this on a handful of ships. All of this is fine, and does not tread on the Narn's theme of common use of emines.
and by common you mean, 2 dice one shot on one ship at skirmish, the dag kar at raid, the worlds most cack battleships, with one shot mines, then war and armageddon level ships. so it's not actually all that common, probably equates to less than 50% of the fleet
you can add the G'Karith at raid with it's pulsar mines, single damage.
but I believe every gaim bar one has e-mines? so who is the most common user?
that aside, the thing is, E-mines are widely derided by Whitestar users as something that can actually hit them (aside from the shadow scout and liati), and the fact that everyone seems to be aquiring them at some level or another is what is annoying people. (or the ISA players as the mine is somewhat anti cheese)
e-mine like weapon carrying fleets. Narn, EA, pak, brakiri, abbai, gaim.
so 6 races, it used to be 1! and actually, ISA and Psi Corps with their allies as well, so 8 races.
you can add the G'Karith at raid with it's pulsar mines, single damage.
but I believe every gaim bar one has e-mines? so who is the most common user?
that aside, the thing is, E-mines are widely derided by Whitestar users as something that can actually hit them (aside from the shadow scout and liati), and the fact that everyone seems to be aquiring them at some level or another is what is annoying people. (or the ISA players as the mine is somewhat anti cheese)
e-mine like weapon carrying fleets. Narn, EA, pak, brakiri, abbai, gaim.
so 6 races, it used to be 1! and actually, ISA and Psi Corps with their allies as well, so 8 races.
Foxmeister
Mongoose
hiffano said:
Which is ironic when you consider that you frequently see allies in an ISA list, but out of all the ships in the out of all the races they could select, it often one particular Narn Raid level ship that is chosen........
Regards,
Dave
nekomata fuyu
Mongoose
The most common user of powerful type emines would be the Narn. Just because the Gaim make more common use of weak low-power emines doesn't change that.
The EA give up a lot just to get a single shot, and can only do so for a very limited number of ships. The Brakiri only have a single emine ship which takes up a War slot. Neither of these races can be seen as anything other than minor users of emines.
The new Abbai rule is an interesting one, but at the end of the day it's hard to use to target fighters or clusters of ships due to the way it works, and emine just stops it from causing criticals instead. For this reason, I'd class the Abbai as a minor user as well.
If you want to complain about the ISA taking allies... how would only the Narn having emines help again?
So, there are 3 main emine fleets: Narn, Pak, and Gaim. All of which have a different approach to using them.
The EA give up a lot just to get a single shot, and can only do so for a very limited number of ships. The Brakiri only have a single emine ship which takes up a War slot. Neither of these races can be seen as anything other than minor users of emines.
The new Abbai rule is an interesting one, but at the end of the day it's hard to use to target fighters or clusters of ships due to the way it works, and emine just stops it from causing criticals instead. For this reason, I'd class the Abbai as a minor user as well.
If you want to complain about the ISA taking allies... how would only the Narn having emines help again?
So, there are 3 main emine fleets: Narn, Pak, and Gaim. All of which have a different approach to using them.
we weren't complaning about the ISA having allies.
we were pointing out, 8 races (including the ISA) have the ability to blat whitestars if they so choose that fleet selection.
they would be the powerful one shot e-mines on all but the dag'kar, G'Vrahn and Ka'Bin'tak, so overall a lot less powerful than other mines as after they fire, they are done with. oh, i forgot, the G'uanth.
we were pointing out, 8 races (including the ISA) have the ability to blat whitestars if they so choose that fleet selection.
they would be the powerful one shot e-mines on all but the dag'kar, G'Vrahn and Ka'Bin'tak, so overall a lot less powerful than other mines as after they fire, they are done with. oh, i forgot, the G'uanth.
nekomata fuyu
Mongoose
If you're complaining about the ISA being able to take non-ISA ships in order to gain emine, you're basically complaining about allies.
Edit: Actually, seeing as you're trying to artificially inflate your numbers of fleets that use emines left right and centre, let me help you. EA is 4 lists now, not the 2 you've included. That makes 10 fleets for your whinefest :wink:
Edit2: Wait, just realised that Minbari, Centauri, Drazi, Vree, Raiders, and Drakh can all gain emine allies too. There, got you up to 16 for you.
Edit: Actually, seeing as you're trying to artificially inflate your numbers of fleets that use emines left right and centre, let me help you. EA is 4 lists now, not the 2 you've included. That makes 10 fleets for your whinefest :wink:
Edit2: Wait, just realised that Minbari, Centauri, Drazi, Vree, Raiders, and Drakh can all gain emine allies too. There, got you up to 16 for you.
Lord David the Denied
Mongoose
Only in campaigns.
