Drop Tanks... Back From the Dead?
- Thread starter Ol'Weedy
- Start date
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
Why would they not be able to be breakaway drone ships? That rule seems kind of arbitrary.
That... could work. Similar to how early diesel locomotives were used mostly in A-B or A-B-B-A modes (the B was just an engine). Though after a period of time they determined it was better to make every engine an A (modern slugs are few and far between) and put a cab on it and remote control all of them from the lead. So I'd think drone shells would work, but perhaps they'd find it to be easier like railroads did and just make them all the same. The cost of the cab (or bridge) is minor compared to the overall vehicle costs, and you can't beat the 100% utility of having that flexibility.
I had come up with one that had gantry of sorts on the bottom, with arms that would encircle the outsized cargo and take it through jump space. System controls, fuel and habitat were on the top. Ugly as hell, but it's meant to be functional. Kind of like some of the floating ships that transport other ships around the world today. Was even uglier when I tried my hand at the artwork.
Actually, it probably makes more sense just to carry drones that have chunky attitude thrusters on them. The attach at the opposite end of the other ship and make it simpler to rotate the assembly. No need for the expense of a breakaway hull or TWO M-Drives that do the same job at all.
I think any hull needs at least a cockpit based on size. The bridge is mostly the ship's nervous system, whether it has sit down couches and consoles or is just run by the computer. Breakaway hulls seem a more expensive option of using a carried craft... a small craft that's basically all engine would do for what you're suggesting.
But per my previous post, you can decelerate with the attached tug as long as you have attitude control, and that does not need an M-Drive. Mining drones would work - they go out and move things. You could even bring them back after you've flipped the ship and are decelerating.
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
A drone ship doesn’t need a bridge as the robot is the center of the nervous system.
Do you have a page reference for that, Terry? I'm struggling to find one.
As well, the cockpit or bridge contains the avionics, and basic communications and sensors (which can be upgraded for extra cost), which I'm pretty sure even a robot brain is going to need. Very comfortable for a robot or drone ship to use the small bridge rule without having to suffer the penalty though.
As well, the cockpit or bridge contains the avionics, and basic communications and sensors (which can be upgraded for extra cost), which I'm pretty sure even a robot brain is going to need. Very comfortable for a robot or drone ship to use the small bridge rule without having to suffer the penalty though.
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
I don’t have a rule. It’s more of a feeling, though the build sheet allows for no bridge on a drone ship. Perhaps there is a specific rule that @Arkathan knows about.
If it does require something specific, why not just a cockpit?
Honestly, a bridge or cockpit is more for people. All the other parts could be in walls and decks. It’s the open spaces that biologicals require that makes it a significant displacement. I don’t believe a drone ship needs a control space at all.
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
In the Robot Handbook, on the subject of ship’s brains, it has this to say. My reading is that the interfaces take the place of a bridge and fulfill the same function as bridge consoles.
“A ship’s brain gives a spacecraft the capability to perform some functions autonomously and can give the ship itself a personality. Whether operating directly through interfaces to a spacecraft’s control systems or through drones or avatars, ship’s brains can supplement or replace some crew functions. Ship’s brains can even be installed in vehicles, performing much the same functions as on a spacecraft. The brains listed do not include the costs of a direct spacecraft or vehicle interface, which costs MCr1 per 100 tons or fraction there of, or Cr5000 per Space.”
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
I found this in The Third Imperium on the Megacorporate Courier.
“Megacorporate offices are spread out across and staterooms are provided to accommodate a skeleton crew in case corporate officers are not comfortable with an AI carrying sensitive data and cargo across multiple sectors. Imperial space and this ship can bridge the gap quickly with its jump-5 capability. State-of-the-art virtual crew software enables the ship to operate as a drone, with no crew at all if desired. A small bridge and staterooms are provided to accommodate a skeleton crew in case corporate officers are not comfortable with an AI carrying sensitive data and cargo across multiple sectors.”
The fact that the bridge is explicitly provided as an afterthought, in case biological crew would need it, strongly implies that the bridge is not mandatory.
Sounds like special pleading. It still has a bridge of some kind, and while Robot Handbook discusses robots controlling ships at some length, it does not appear to mention them replacing the ship systems that the bridge provides.
Having said that, I am ALSO happy for there to exist a type of bridge/cockpit/control suite, that has no seats and consoles and can be run by a robot brain, or via drone link.
Having said that, I am ALSO happy for there to exist a type of bridge/cockpit/control suite, that has no seats and consoles and can be run by a robot brain, or via drone link.
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
The reason I brought it up was that it was clearly stated that the bridge was there for biologicals to use if they were uncomfortable with artificial control, not that it was there because it was required. If I was required, there would be no need to mention it as that would be standard. This, while not a direct statement, is telling.
Except... the sentence is:
"A small bridge and staterooms are provided to accommodate a skeleton crew..."
I'm not so sure that one reference can be extended to ONLY be talking about the bridge, or more importantly that it's talking about anything more than the room in the ship that's called the bridge. It's explicit from both Core and High Guard that the bridge covers a lot more than the walk around and sit down part.
I'd also note that the bridge size scales up with hull size, not bridge crew requirements, and that small bridges are allowed regardless. So most of the tonnage would be "...communications equipment, avionics, scanners, detectors, sensors and other equipment for proper operation of the ship."
Civilian ships under 3750 tons only need two bridge crew (Pilot and Astrogator) and larger ones don't need a second sensops until 11,250 tons.
So it's clearly not comfy seats and walk around requirements that mean a 100 ton ship has a 10 ton bridge and a 3000 ton one has a 60 ton bridge, for their two or three bridge crew.
You could even argue that the sit down and walk around space is provided as a share of their stateroom's tonnage, at no extra cost.
"A small bridge and staterooms are provided to accommodate a skeleton crew..."
I'm not so sure that one reference can be extended to ONLY be talking about the bridge, or more importantly that it's talking about anything more than the room in the ship that's called the bridge. It's explicit from both Core and High Guard that the bridge covers a lot more than the walk around and sit down part.
I'd also note that the bridge size scales up with hull size, not bridge crew requirements, and that small bridges are allowed regardless. So most of the tonnage would be "...communications equipment, avionics, scanners, detectors, sensors and other equipment for proper operation of the ship."
Civilian ships under 3750 tons only need two bridge crew (Pilot and Astrogator) and larger ones don't need a second sensops until 11,250 tons.
So it's clearly not comfy seats and walk around requirements that mean a 100 ton ship has a 10 ton bridge and a 3000 ton one has a 60 ton bridge, for their two or three bridge crew.
You could even argue that the sit down and walk around space is provided as a share of their stateroom's tonnage, at no extra cost.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
Then why doesn't a robot missile need a bridge? It obviously has room for sensors and a computer.
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
I don’t know. It seems all those systems could be stuck in walls and decks, out of sight and being wrapped into other things. The bridge is specifically mentioned as being optional (my reading of the intent).
“A small bridge and staterooms are provided to accommodate a skeleton crew in case corporate officers are not comfortable with an AI carrying sensitive data and cargo across multiple sectors.”
The implication is clear to me that both are provided as a convenience. Once again, if the bridge was required, it wouldn’t need to be mentioned because it would need to be there. I’m convinced that a bridge isn’t needed on a drone ship and all the ancillary systems for control of the ship could be in with other equipment.
While a bridge might hold some of those systems, I would wager the vast majority are already accounted for elsewhere. The bridge is a convenient place to interact with consoles controlling them, nothing more.
@Geir, you are Mister Roboto. What do you think?
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MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
I was just thinking that if it was a jump-capable ship and in Charted Space, then isn't at least an Astrogator required to jump? Unless it is a TL-16 Conscious Intelligence? That would mean that neither bridge, nor staterooms are really optional.
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
An astrogator could work off his tablet on the John.I was just thinking that if it was a jump-capable ship and in Charted Space, then isn't at least an Astrogator required to jump? Unless it is a TL-16 Conscious Intelligence? That would mean that neither bridge, nor staterooms are really optional.
Side question: for sunlight ships, would there be no bridge requirement for you as there would be no astrogator?
With a high enough skill, and taking time, a robot can make sure it has a good jump setup.
Don’t drag the skill application argument from the other thread over. The rules are what they are. An astrogator can try multiple times and even take extra time. That and higher programmed skill levels offsets the DM-4.
For example, you can make a robot INT 15 self-aware. +3 vs +1 for most astrogators. Take extra time. +2. DM-4 countered.
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MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
True enough.An astrogator could work off his tablet on the John.
With a high enough skill, and taking time, a robot can make sure it has a good jump setup.
Don’t drag the skill application argument from the other thread over. The rules are what they are. An astrogator can try multiple times and even take extra time. That and higher programmed skill levels offsets the DM-4.
For example, you can make a robot INT 15 self-aware. +3 vs +1 for most astrogators. Take extra time. +2. DM-4 countered.
Arkathan
Emperor Mongoose
The discussion came up in early December on pg 44 of the Excel Ship Designer thread.
@J. L. Brown provided the reference: High Guard Update 2022, page 75:
