boggo2300
Cosmic Mongoose
1st reality war if my memory serves.... by my count 7th Reality war would be Mongoose 1e.
Drop Tanks... Back From the Dead?
- Thread starter Ol'Weedy
- Start date
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
(I made the number up - but let's play...)
Original 77 no setting - jump torpedos (first casualty of the reality wars)
1st war 78 LBB:4 Imperium mentioned
2nd war 79 LBB:5 ship and tech paradigm changes
3rd war 79 TAS News bulletins, Spinward Marches fluff, Kinunir and other early adventures and supplements (proto-Spinward Marches/Imperium.)
4th war 80 LBB:5 ship paradigm changes again.
5th war 81 revision, yet another ship tech change, Library data A-M retcons
6th war 82 Library data N-Z retcons
7th war 87 MegaTravller
Original 77 no setting - jump torpedos (first casualty of the reality wars)
1st war 78 LBB:4 Imperium mentioned
2nd war 79 LBB:5 ship and tech paradigm changes
3rd war 79 TAS News bulletins, Spinward Marches fluff, Kinunir and other early adventures and supplements (proto-Spinward Marches/Imperium.)
4th war 80 LBB:5 ship paradigm changes again.
5th war 81 revision, yet another ship tech change, Library data A-M retcons
6th war 82 Library data N-Z retcons
7th war 87 MegaTravller
boggo2300
Cosmic Mongoose
some of those are mighty small changes, just there to make up numbers it seems
Concepts like towing cables and jump nets are terrible in a space environment. I dunno if any of you guys have ever tried to tow a car using a tow cable/rope, but without someone behind you to steer and brake, everything after that initial start-up is just plain disaster. A tow cable or jump net in space means your cargo is going to slam into you as you decelerate (it has no thrusters), and if you turn your load will continue on its previous course till that cable whips it around, and then physics becomes even more of a pain.
No, these are stupid ideas that were tossed into the book with no thought behind them. And easily fixed by a single sentence along the lines of "Tow cables / jump nets are able to be energized by the towing ship so that they become rigid and the towed object acts as an extension of the sihp".
If you wanted to make it more realistic you'd add in something like "Tow cables / jump nets have severe limitations on how many G's they can handle before failing. Ships using them are restricted to maneuvering at .5G/turn (you could put limits or a wonderful Traveller table here), including acceleration and deceleration. Exceeding these numbers will cause the tow cable / jump net to fail and the towed object will then be drifting at the velocity and heading prior to the failure. Ships may recover their cargo once they match heading and velocities and re-establish the tow. Tow cables / jump nets that have exceeded the maneuver limitations by more than 1G are considered destroyed and must be replaced."
It's all these little holes in the rules that can cause interesting discussions - but it's also an example of designers who are "shiny!" more than "we need to plug the holes here". Not like Traveller is the only game system to do this, but many of its versions are full of holes. GURPS did a good job at trying to plug a lot of them - but SJG has a higher production quality than most game shops too.
No, these are stupid ideas that were tossed into the book with no thought behind them. And easily fixed by a single sentence along the lines of "Tow cables / jump nets are able to be energized by the towing ship so that they become rigid and the towed object acts as an extension of the sihp".
If you wanted to make it more realistic you'd add in something like "Tow cables / jump nets have severe limitations on how many G's they can handle before failing. Ships using them are restricted to maneuvering at .5G/turn (you could put limits or a wonderful Traveller table here), including acceleration and deceleration. Exceeding these numbers will cause the tow cable / jump net to fail and the towed object will then be drifting at the velocity and heading prior to the failure. Ships may recover their cargo once they match heading and velocities and re-establish the tow. Tow cables / jump nets that have exceeded the maneuver limitations by more than 1G are considered destroyed and must be replaced."
It's all these little holes in the rules that can cause interesting discussions - but it's also an example of designers who are "shiny!" more than "we need to plug the holes here". Not like Traveller is the only game system to do this, but many of its versions are full of holes. GURPS did a good job at trying to plug a lot of them - but SJG has a higher production quality than most game shops too.
CordwainerFish
Emperor Mongoose
Really, when the Shattered Imperium, Virus, and the Wave We're Not Supposed To Call Empress are right there?
But yeah, at my table it's hull grid, or spherical ship, or nothin'. Wanna piggyback a shuttle on your hull? It has to have a jump grid too. And your engineer has to make sure it gets connected when you remount it. And you have to have two jump performance profiles calculated and in ROM, one for jumping with the shuttle attached and one for not.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
I have never in all of Traveller seen a shuttle with a hull grid, and it completely changes the dynamic of battleriders and of dispersed structured ships. How are those handled in YTU?
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
Hadrian Battle Riders are canon and have no jump grid. The ship still has to account for the displacement though.
boggo2300
Cosmic Mongoose
I honestly had no issue with the Shattered Imperium, I more or less ignored the Rebellion and so did every table I played at (and eventually all three tables threw out Megatraveller, 2 went back to CT the third to 2300. Virus was really poorly done, especially the back story, but again I more or less ignored it (My TNE campaign was in the TI with no Rebellion) The Empress Wave I kinda like how they changed it for T:20. To be fair I also ignore Jump Bubbles, but they are MUCH more annoying to me than the others, one must have frightened me as a kid
Towing a spaceship can work, but it won't be like towing a car, boat or glider.
You'd attach and apply thust as long as needed, but to decelerate you would detach the tow cable. maneuver behind the towed ship and reattach the cable, then apply thrust in the opposite vector. Course corrections would be the same process.
You'd attach and apply thust as long as needed, but to decelerate you would detach the tow cable. maneuver behind the towed ship and reattach the cable, then apply thrust in the opposite vector. Course corrections would be the same process.
As far as the venerable jump net is concerned (first presented in CT Supplement 9, you can hardly blame Mongoose for including it), it's not shown a towed thing, but a net that secures the cargo tightly against the ship.
Think roof rack instead of trailer.
And it works regardless of the grid or bubble paradigms, since it's made of Jumpy magic.
Maybe there's confusion with the Cargo Net, which is just a way to snag nearby objects and has nothing to do with Jump?
Think roof rack instead of trailer.
And it works regardless of the grid or bubble paradigms, since it's made of Jumpy magic.
Maybe there's confusion with the Cargo Net, which is just a way to snag nearby objects and has nothing to do with Jump?
CordwainerFish
Emperor Mongoose
I'm remembering Gateway, where they tried attaching external cargo to a Heechee ship.
It did not go anything near what a reasonable person would call well.
It did not go anything near what a reasonable person would call well.
Yeah, that would work. You couldn't really do any sort of maneuvering (and one would have to wonder just where the hell you'd attach a tow cable to an entire ship that had a mount that was strong enough for the mass, but a little hand-wave here and there and I suppose it'd work.
There was mention of jump nets that would allow ships to take towed cargo's though jump space. I think GURPS had theirs acting like a jump grid where it was energized by the ship - basically a hull extension with large gaps in it.
I prefer that ships establish physical contact with one another (with a mechanism designed to share loads rather than just an airlock passage). You could do with much lighter-weight mechanisms if your thrust was very low. And, I suppose, one could start out with tiny amounts of thrust and work your way up to greater velocity.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
Or the airlock is in the same axis as the ship's thrust. Then the ship attached to the airlock is pushed along ahead of the main ship. Stopping would be an issue though.
Honestly, the whole tow cable does seem a bit unnecessary. Any docked ships can do the thing, and while the airlock being along the line of thrust would be convenient, it would not be required.
For that matter, just securing the ship being pushed to the nose of the pusher would be enough. . A dedicated tug design is probably going to locate the docking clamp, Jump Net or other way to attach the pushee, on its nose.
Even just having a bit of a cradle or bowl shaped front might allow it to nestle securely against most hulls well enough to apply thrust without having to actually attach itself. That sort of thing doesn't cost extra, though it probably excludes streamlined hulls.
Although...
For that matter, just securing the ship being pushed to the nose of the pusher would be enough. . A dedicated tug design is probably going to locate the docking clamp, Jump Net or other way to attach the pushee, on its nose.
Even just having a bit of a cradle or bowl shaped front might allow it to nestle securely against most hulls well enough to apply thrust without having to actually attach itself. That sort of thing doesn't cost extra, though it probably excludes streamlined hulls.
Although...
In the SW universe the Millenium Falcon family did push cargo pods with their mandibles, and in that case it was simply an elongated ship. It operated the same as tubs on a river.
Using a telescoping boarding tube to transfer thrust seems like a bad idea to me unless it's far more structurally rigid than what I would consider the average boarding tube to be. Thrust of an consequence should rip it apart since that's not a structural function. You'd want hull plating and the tube swing along the ship rather than collapse accordion style into the ship itself. The mount could be strengthened to provide protection from reasonable shearing forces - though if the other ship gained power then I'd say it could rip itself off as the connector is not designed to stop a ship from escaping under its own power.
Boarding tubes specifically break if either ship uses thrust. They're not among the options to allow one ship to move another one around.
I was just talking about when both ships are co-operating on the matter, likely because the tug can move the two of them faster, or the ship being pushed has lost its M-Drive.
I was just talking about when both ships are co-operating on the matter, likely because the tug can move the two of them faster, or the ship being pushed has lost its M-Drive.
In the Traveller universe I'd expect tugs to have some sort of grapple, or perhaps even an electromagnet of sorts that physically links two ships together. So long as you are willing to slowly accelerate and maneuver so you don't stress your connection this would probably work.
Now that I think about it... the magnet idea could work if it was conformal enough to grasp multiple hull types - though it makes for some interesting ideas if you cranked up the power too much, would it affect systems and/or the innards of the ship being towed?
Now that I think about it... the magnet idea could work if it was conformal enough to grasp multiple hull types - though it makes for some interesting ideas if you cranked up the power too much, would it affect systems and/or the innards of the ship being towed?
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
Probably just a mechanical or gravity docking clamp on the nose of the ship. Attachs itself to the ship or container that it wants to push, and off it goes. Detaches, flies to the other side, reattaches, and decelerates. Detaches, flies to the other side and guides it into wherever it is being docked at.
Or you make tugs as breakaway hulls. Tug flies out, separates into two ships. One grabs the front, the other grabs the back. The one in the back accelerates the cargo, the one in front slows it down at the other end. Only one ship has an actual bridge. The other is just a big drone.
