Drop Tanks... Back From the Dead?

[MasterGwydion]

That part is inaccurate. You can reuse them indefinitely IF you never drop them.

Their chance of being destroyed drops with TL. At high TL where they are most likely recoverable they make long distance trade/travel more practical as the cost per ton of cargo exceeds (at J-6) the cost per ton of the drop tank and you increase your cargo/passenger load by nearly as much tonnage as the drop tank.

People have even cited official statements of it being in use in the 3rd Imperium core worlds.

Yeah, at TL-15 they are no longer a hazard to your jump. The tanks are still rendered unusable though on a second roll of 7- with no modifiers possible. I would change the rule to be, since you can't add bonus to the first roll for being TL-16+, then it should be applied to the second roll.

TL-15 no chance of jump disruption, 7- drop tank damaged beyond reuse without repair.
TL-16 no chance of jump disruption, 6- drop tank damaged beyond reuse without repair.
TL-17 no chance of jump disruption, 5- drop tank damaged beyond reuse without repair.
Etc...

This makes them safe to use at TL-15, but not very practical. Each TL above 15 makes them more practical. This allows them to function basically as written currently, and allows it to be true that, some day, they will be practical as well and change Charted Space forever. Until then though, this keeps Charted Space largely "as is".

 

[Vormaerin]

That part is inaccurate. You can reuse them indefinitely IF you never drop them.

Their chance of being destroyed drops with TL. At high TL where they are most likely recoverable they make long distance trade/travel more practical as the cost per ton of cargo exceeds (at J-6) the cost per ton of the drop tank and you increase your cargo/passenger load by nearly as much tonnage as the drop tank.

People have even cited official statements of it being in use in the 3rd Imperium core worlds.

Please cite your reference for the chance of the tanks being destroyed dropping with TL? The misjump chance is affected by TL, but the chance that the tanks are destroyed remains 55% no matter what, unless you have a reference I'm missing.

Drop tanks that are never dropped are pointless and don't affect anything. The rules that make drop tanks cheaper than fuel space in the hull are silly.

 

[Condottiere]

Actually, battle riders, with jump drives, but without organic jump fuel tanks.

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

Please cite your reference for the chance of the tanks being destroyed dropping with TL? The misjump chance is affected by TL, but the chance that the tanks are destroyed remains 55% no matter what, unless you have a reference I'm missing.

Looks like you are correct and my memory played a trick on me. It is the Jump roll that gets better with TL only. Now personally I don't see why they wouldn't improve recovery with TL even if it also increased the price. I might decide to for MTU.

Drop tanks that are never dropped are pointless and don't affect anything. The rules that make drop tanks cheaper than fuel space in the hull are silly.

Drop tanks historically are made lighter and cheaper than the aircrafts onboard tanks. Some are not intended to be dropped barring emergency and are reused until such an emergency but need not be carried on every flight. (I looked it up within the last hour or so).

Non dropped tanks reduce the price of the ship, the basic power (and thereby cheaper power plant) making the ship more economical so long as it keeps reusing it. Two merchants going high port to high port with the same tonnage the one paying lesser expenses makes more profit all else being equal.

Now would players who want their ship to be able to land in out of the way (even illicit) places want drop tanks? Nope. Would they want them if they expect to have ship to ship combat? Nope. But their trading competitors who don't have those issues may.

Just like other options such as budget power plants and drives as well as light hulls might or might not be wanted by the players but then again they might.

As a GM if the players want to turn pirate I'd think it would be a good thing if the ships they were trying to pirate had drop tanks as if they are either dropped (increasing the ships M-Drive rating) or destroyed the players will have a harder time escaping WITH the craft rather than with just some of the cargo or hostages for ransom. They'd be better off trying to hi-jack the ship.

 

[Vormaerin]

Looks like you are correct and my memory played a trick on me. It is the Jump roll that gets better with TL only. Now personally I don't see why they wouldn't improve recovery with TL even if it also increased the price. I might decide to for MTU.

Yes, that was the point of this whole discussion. What if the TAS entries were correct and you could make reliably recoverable drop tanks.

But if you can pump fuel, hold jump until the drop tanks clear the jump vicinity...why can't you do that with a tanker and hose? Starships and jump drives don't have the constraints that aircraft do. They can be motionless and they use all the fuel at once, so they don't need to carry fuel with them.

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

Yes, that was the point of this whole discussion. What if the TAS entries were correct and you could make reliably recoverable drop tanks.

Make the survival an Engineering roll. Drop tank ships would pay premiums for Engineer 2+ with a ability score bonus add expert software and the chance gets really good.

 

[rinku]

The JTAS articles don't talk about recovering tanks, just manufacture.

As far as costs go, the jump drive and powerplant is the expensive component. What the drop tanks allow is for a ship with a given hull and a given jump drive to replace their jump fuel space with cargo or passenger space and make more income on a jump from that than they lose having to buy new jump tanks. The calculation is simple - jump tanks are Cr25,000 per ton, so the ship needs to make more than that from the extra payload.

That's not going to happen with passengers or freight, so is in the zone of speculative trade, or where the ship is moving payload that the big picture company IS making that sort of profit from. Most likely, as per the JTAS articles when it involves long distance jumps, which would include cutting across rifts or avoiding certain worlds.

 

[Vormaerin]

You are correct, it does not talk about recovering tanks. But it does talk about freight and passenger service using jump tanks being a thing in the core that could spread to the fringe. So something has to be different from the rules in High Guard or that wouldn't happen, as you rightly pointed out.

 

[rinku]

I disagree. Just because it's a thing in the core, it does not follow that it's common. Most won't use them because their profit margin isn't good enough, but any business that can rely on more than Cr25,000 per ton profit would consider it - which would include J-6 passenger and freight routes under Mongoose (5 tons per high passenger after life support and their share of crew is over Cr40,000 per ton. Freight is Cr32,000 per ton). Maybe another reason why commercial use has not happened until recently (i.e. TL15)

I'm happy that the current MGT rules all line up with allowing the old canon to stand. Maybe the CT rules did not, although it never did state that Core use made a profit. Sometimes subsidies are involved. Or maybe the economics of the rich and famous in the core allowed it to work economically. If the corporation running the ships was also the one making the drop tanks, for example, they get their tanks at cost and if they're also transporting high profit goods they might lose money by NOT using tanks.

And once again, the JTAS articles don't mention recovering tanks.

 

[boggo2300]

I disagree. Just because it's a thing in the core, it does not follow that it's common. Most won't use them because their profit margin isn't good enough, but any business that can rely on more than Cr25,000 per ton profit would consider it - which would include J-6 passenger and freight routes under Mongoose (5 tons per high passenger after life support and their share of crew is over Cr40,000 per ton. Freight is Cr32,000 per ton). Maybe another reason why commercial use has not happened until recently (i.e. TL15)

I'm happy that the current MGT rules all line up with allowing the old canon to stand. Maybe the CT rules did not, although it never did state that Core use made a profit. Sometimes subsidies are involved. Or maybe the economics of the rich and famous in the core allowed it to work economically. If the corporation running the ships was also the one making the drop tanks, for example, they get their tanks at cost and if they're also transporting high profit goods they might lose money by NOT using tanks.

And once again, the JTAS articles don't mention recovering tanks.

I still cant see a valid commercial use case, it's increasing overheads, for extending range which isn't going to ba a massive need in the core with it's mains. I think it's a case of JTAS author making something up off the top of their head without thinking through the actual mechanics (SHOCK HORROR!!)

 

[rinku]

Sure, but the starting point of this thread was reconciling rules with canon.

The current rules seem to manage that better than the classic ones did.

Having said that, the JTAS 2 news item is specifically talking about the premier transport Megacorporation in the Imperium, Tukera Lines, and that stock in the local Sector-wide Oberlindes Lines has taken a hit as a result of the announcement.

It's at a level of commerce waaaay above that of free traders and such. The article also makes mention of use of the L-Hyd tanks to speed up the X-Boat network, which Tukera essentially ship along. I can certainly see Tukera specifically making use of drop tanks as described for the reasons presented and at least managing to break even because they control the entire production of the ships and tanks and run on much lower costs (no mortgages, owning their own fuel production and distribution etc). But there would be other factors too, likely to do with speed of transport and commercial advantage at that level.

Or...

It's all lies. Tukera will actually run at a loss using these touted "high capacity commercial vessels", but calculate that they can use the hype and glamour of them to ruin Oberlindes in the process. It's probably important that every fact reported in the TAS article has been sourced from General Shipyards and Tukera's joint press release.

 

[Vormaerin]

Well, sure, we actually have zero information on how Imperial trade actually works. 100% of the data points are oriented around tramp by small freighters. And, worse, tramp traders that are hyper simplified to be playable at an RPG table. So, for all we know, it's super profitable to run disposable drop tanks at the major player level.

But that misses the point. The question was never "is it profitable or not?". The question was "If it's profitable, how would that change the setting?" Because J6 commercial ships and just generally faster overall communication definitely would. Not to mention questions like "why do you need rift bridge stations when you use drop tanks to allow a double jump? With drop tanks, you can just jump directly from Filentred to Amondiage or even New Home in the Islands. Then New Home to Zuflucht and skip Chandler Station and Tonnurad to go straight to Tobia.

And, if you can delay jump long enough to expel drop tanks from your jump space, why can't you have a tanker pumping fuel directly into your power plant via a tube that is retracted before you jump?

The initial assumption was that profitability required reusability, but proving that it doesn't just makes the actual topic more germaine, not less.

 

[rinku]

Well, we do know (from the MegaTraveller Imperial Encyclopedia, and maybe earlier sources) that the Imperial Bureaucracy likes to keep the public communication speed at J-4, so that the secret Imperialines J-6 ships can outpace it.

Tukera are quite possibly complicit in that setup. It's likely that at the very least they'd be aware of it.

 

[boggo2300]

Sure, but the starting point of this thread was reconciling rules with canon.

The current rules seem to manage that better than the classic ones did.

Having said that, the JTAS 2 news item is specifically talking about the premier transport Megacorporation in the Imperium, Tukera Lines, and that stock in the local Sector-wide Oberlindes Lines has taken a hit as a result of the announcement.

It's at a level of commerce waaaay above that of free traders and such. The article also makes mention of use of the L-Hyd tanks to speed up the X-Boat network, which Tukera essentially ship along. I can certainly see Tukera specifically making use of drop tanks as described for the reasons presented and at least managing to break even because they control the entire production of the ships and tanks and run on much lower costs (no mortgages, owning their own fuel production and distribution etc). But there would be other factors too, likely to do with speed of transport and commercial advantage at that level.

Or...

It's all lies. Tukera will actually run at a loss using these touted "high capacity commercial vessels", but calculate that they can use the hype and glamour of them to ruin Oberlindes in the process. It's probably important that every fact reported in the TAS article has been sourced from General Shipyards and Tukera's joint press release.

Tukera is a Mega-Corp, they wouldnt think twice about running it as a loss leader just to hurt Oberlindes...

 

[Sigtrygg]

The JTAS articles don't talk about recovering tanks, just manufacture.

I agree, the TAS News article specifically states they are destroyed on use.

"the drop tanks are explosively jettisoned through the use of break-away connections and explosive bolts. Jump is executed when the remains of the tanks are a safe distance from the vessel...

L-Hyd drop tanks are not reusable"

As far as costs go, the jump drive and powerplant is the expensive component. What the drop tanks allow is for a ship with a given hull and a given jump drive to replace their jump fuel space with cargo or passenger space and make more income on a jump from that than they lose having to buy new jump tanks. The calculation is simple - jump tanks are Cr25,000 per ton, so the ship needs to make more than that from the extra payload.

Add the costs to the goods... but them megacorporations own their ships without mortgages, are taking their own goods to market, and can afford this stuff by putting up the price of every air/raft and ATV they sell...

That's not going to happen with passengers or freight, so is in the zone of speculative trade, or where the ship is moving payload that the big picture company IS making that sort of profit from. Most likely, as per the JTAS articles when it involves long distance jumps, which would include cutting across rifts or avoiding certain worlds.

The megacorporations operate jump 4 freighters and liners, 40% extra cargo of speculative goods is not to be sniffed at.

 

[Sigtrygg]

You are correct, it does not talk about recovering tanks. But it does talk about freight and passenger service using jump tanks being a thing in the core that could spread to the fringe. So something has to be different from the rules in High Guard or that wouldn't happen, as you rightly pointed out.

What's different...
only megacorporations can afford to absorb the increased transportation costs by selling more stuff...
the people of the Spinward Marches do not want easier access to the marches for Imperial authority...
the FFW kicks off before the sabotage can be fully investigated...
later authors totally forgot/were unaware/didn't research/retconned this setting detail.

Much as I like the Singularity Campaign when I run it there will be drop tank megafreighters and jump 6 xboats on every trade lane and xboat link in Core.

 

[Sigtrygg]

I disagree. Just because it's a thing in the core, it does not follow that it's common. Most won't use them because their profit margin isn't good enough, but any business that can rely on more than Cr25,000 per ton profit would consider it - which would include J-6 passenger and freight routes under Mongoose (5 tons per high passenger after life support and their share of crew is over Cr40,000 per ton. Freight is Cr32,000 per ton). Maybe another reason why commercial use has not happened until recently (i.e. TL15)

I agree, only the megacorporations and theri subsiduries will be able to mitigate the increased transport costs by either:
reducing individual item profit but increasing volume of sale to increase overall profit
or just increase the unit price,
Governments could offer subsidies too, but I think these would be niche cases.

I'm happy that the current MGT rules all line up with allowing the old canon to stand.

Mongoose allows frop tanks to survive and be reused - this is what changes the setting if you apply these rules. But not everything in a core rule book is in a setting is it

 

[Sigtrygg]

I still cant see a valid commercial use case, it's increasing overheads, for extending range which isn't going to ba a massive need in the core with it's mains. I think it's a case of JTAS author making something up off the top of their head without thinking through the actual mechanics (SHOCK HORROR!!)

You are thinking in terms of the fixed prices in the books. A megacorporation is selling its own goods. Do you think it cost a megacorporation Cr100,000 to make an air/raft? (or whatever item you can find in the book for the same cost)

1000t jump 4 freighter - 400t additional cargo - 100 air/rafts. Does the profit made when selling those extra air/rafts make you a profit even with the increased transportation costs. Note I could carry those extra air/rafts to market on additional ships, but then you have the costs of those addtional ships, crew costs...

 

[Sigtrygg]

Tukera is a Mega-Corp, they wouldnt think twice about running it as a loss leader just to hurt Oberlindes...

Another facet of trade war...

 

[Condottiere]

It's the supporting infrastructure for a widespread network, not really whether you can utilize as a one shot gimmick.