[Dragon Warriors] Special Abilities and Rank

[Dominik]

I don´t get it...

Why does a Knight only gets further special abilities not until rank 8??? Same with the Barbarian and his "Bloodrage" or the Warlock (at least he has spells).

In comparison:

The Assassin get´s a lot of special abilities much earlier in the game (for example Combat techniques at 1, 3, 5, 7 - same with the other techniques).

And all Wizards get a lot of devastating spells relativley early in the game plus all the other Special Abilities of their class (Calligraphy, Alchemy).

Is all this compensated by the normal gains a Knight or Barbarians get, when he levels up (+1 HP per Rank and so on)? I´m really not sure...

I was starting to give a least the Knight the possibility to choose new special abilities much earlier in the game. Maybe about rank 3, 6, 9, 12 ...

What do you think?

 

[Random Code]

Character classes aren't particularly balanced, but then in an old school game like DW they aren't meant to be. Also, don't forget the RPing advantages of playing a knight and the distinct disadvatages of playing an assassin. A GM and group playing these RP issues out would quickly bring balance back to the two classes. Remember that not all class traits/abilities are game mechanic ones. In a standard DW game I would much rather play a knight than an assassin. In fact, I wouldn't expect an assassin PC to live particularly long if the threats against him were fairly played out.

With the above in mind I'm not sure how to advise on your mechanic suggestion as how don't know how you run/GM all the classes. Mechanically it looks okay but like I say I'm not taking into account my comments from the above paragraph.

 

[Dominik]

You´re right, we play with a strong feudal hierarchy in our campaign and Knights a definetly most of the time the leaders of the group and all negotiations with other nobles. Most wizards are more ore less some kind of advisors like learned professionals from page 51 in the DW rulebook. The Assassin is in fact just a menial.

 

[Random Code]

Sounds like your setting and style of play is already working in the way I'd run DW. With that in mind I don't think you need to change the rules in order to balance the classes. On the other hand you may want to houserule what you proposed as its not particularly game-breaking and it does give more mechnical variation and options for the knight class earlier in their careers, which isn't a bad thing.

 

[Jiminy]

OK - history lesson. Bear with me here... Back in the eighties when DW was first published, Knights, Barbarians, Mystics, Sorcerers were defined in books 1-2. Assassins, Elementalists and Warlocks were added later on, in books 4-6. Both the Assassin and Warlock received progressive skill systems that were at odds with the simpler 8th rank-only skills of the Knight and Barbarian. I don't think the added professions were intended to be unbalanced - just 'different' and 'more advanced'.

Anyway, the question is; what to do about it? Well, that's a personal choice. Some GMs/players are fine with the rules as-written and some aren't. If you want to house-rule some changes then rationed skills at earlier ranks (like you suggested) are the way to go. Alternatively, you could try creating your own skills - perhaps watered-down versions of the SOTM - and slotting those in earlier.

 

[Random Code]

I don't think the added professions were intended to be unbalanced

I don't think anyone has said that there was an intention. Having no intention to create balanced classes does not immediately mean the intention is to make unbalanced ones. Back in the days when DW was around for the first time very few RPGs even considered balance between classes. In fact, I don't know if it was even discussed between RPG designers.

 

[Dominik]

I made a list about that to analyse this:

(SA = Special Abilities)

Knight: 3 SA at the beginning,
1 more at Rank 8 and above (7 to choose from).
No armor penalty.

Barbarian: 3 SA at the beginning,
1 "Bloodrage" at Rank 8.
Minimal armor penalty.

Sorcerer: 6 Spells per Rank up to Rank 10,
Calligraphy at Rank 4,
Alchemy at Rank 6,
Artifice at Rank 8, 12, 15,
Wands at Rank 8,
Armor penalty.

Mystic: 4 Spells per Rank,
can "overcast" spells,
Spell Mastery,
2 SA at the beginning,
Enchantments at Rank 4,
Adepthood at Rank 8,
Armor penalty.

Elementalist: 3 Spells per Rank,
Raw Power,
Elemental Resistance,
Armor penalty.

Warlock: 4 Spells per Rank,
Weapon groups (disadvantage),
Simultaneous casting,
1 SA at Rank 8 and one more per Rank (9 to choose from).
Minor armor penalty.

Assassin: High Stealth & Perception,
Combat Techniques at 1, 3, 5, 7,
Mental Techniques at 4, 8, 12,
Meditation Techniques at 1, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12,
Alchemical Techniques
Skills at 1, 3, 5, 7, 11 (can choose some skills multiple times),
can "discard" Alchemical Techniques for one more Skill at Rank 1.

All this above without any other gains per rank.

Suggestion:

Knight: 3 SA at the beginning, one more at Rank 3, 5, 7, 9, then 1 per further Rank.

Barbarian: "Bloodrage" at Rank 6.

Warlock: 4, 6, 8, then 1 per further Rank.

 

[rabindranath72]

This is what I have used for my games, and it worked perfectly well. They allow the definition of different character archetypes.

New skills for Barbarians and Knights

Barbarians

This is a revised skill list for Barbarians; in parenthesis the minimum rank to acquire the skill is shown.
Track (1), Ride warhorse (1), Unarmed combat (1), Climb (1), Weaponskill (1), Inner sense (4), Master bowman (8), Quick draw (8), Bloodrage (8).

At 1st rank Barbarians have the Berserk skill, plus they can choose two suitable skills from the list above.
At 4th rank Barbarians acquire a new skill, which they can choose from the list above.
At 8th rank they gain another skill, which they can choose from the list above.
From 8th rank onward they acquire a new skill per 4 ranks (so, another at 12th, another at 16th etc.)


Knights

Track (1), Ride warhorse (1), Unarmed combat (1), Weaponskill (1)

At 1st rank Knights have the Expert armour skill, plus they can choose two skills among the list above.
At 4th rank Knights acquire a new skill, which they can choose from the list above.
From 8th rank onward acquisition of skills follows the standard rules.

 

[muriwo]

Guys, you might be interested in - and are invited to contribute to - a "semi-structured discussion page" I have put up at the DW Wiki, about the future evolution of DW and specifically the "System vs. Setting" debate.
http://dragonwarriors.wetpaint.com/page/DW+II+-+System+vs+Setting

Cameron Smith
Ordo Draconis Magazine

 

[Dominik]

@muriwo
Thanks. But i like the rules as they are. They are truly "old scool" but also have a very "gentlemen like" feeling. I like that. And they are easy to adjust.

I don´t know much about Legend as a setting, because i know DW only from the MOP roleplaying books. But it seems to me, that it has something of the Warhammer "Old World", Mythic Europe (Ars Magica), Harnmaster and Pendragon in it. It´s a nice mixture, but without it´s own ruleset it is just one more setting under hundreds of other.

 

[Erik Sieurin]

"In fact, I don't know if it was even discussed between RPG designers."

It certainly was. You can find old Dragon magazines were people debated, for instance, the changes in AD&D because of the Unearthed Arcana supplement, including careful point-by-point analysis of every class in the game. There were a lot of alternative non-official classes for (A)D&D published in the Dragon, and they were often stated to be "NPC only" because they had a different power level than the standard classes. Game balance was certainly an issue in oldschool gaming, although it wasn't always handled the way it was today.

One example is outright stated in at least the old edition of DW: the author notes that a Mystic or Sorcerer is more powerful than a Knight or Barbarian of equal level - until he runs out of magic. Hence, the longer the scenario goes on, the more relatively powerful a warrior gets compared to a magician. This is considered "balanced", which might not be the case today.

Or compared the way nonhuman characters were handled in (A)D&D: they had certain advantages impossible for a human character. Both the rules and the consensus between gamers seem to be that this was "balanced" by the fact that they could not reach the levels possible for human characters. In other words, a dwarf warrior and a human warrior were "balanced" because if the player kept on long enough, the human character would ultimately become more powerful than the dwarf. You might argue whether this was a bad or a good idea (I happen to be unfound of it), but it was clearly a way of thinking meant to ensure balance, of a sorts, between characters.

Erik

 

[muriwo]

I see what you're saying, Erik. One might characterize these games as having (an attemp at) balance over a longer span of time - and adventure, or the progression over several levels.

As a GM I personally find this more flexibile and interesting than the almost obsessive preoccupation of some modern games with "balance" built-in to every rule and stat.

 

[Random Code]

... the almost obsessive preoccupation of some modern games with "balance" built-in to every rule and stat.

Yeah, that's what I was driving at when I said they didn't consider balance between characters - ie, on an immediate and mechanical basis not over time or due to RPing limits and/or style of play. Old games certainly didn't, for the main part, worry about balance between classes which is where the classes in DW hark back to and is why I stated the things about the assassin in my first couple of posts. Sorry that you appear to have misunderstood what I was referring to, Erik and thanks for picking up on it, Muriwo.

 

[Rimmer]

Sorry about the resurection here, but it was appropriate to the question I had.

Going to be starting up a DW game soon, and wanted to know others opinions on Skill and progression of such with regards to the Knight and Barbarian. I am of the opinion that the Knights and Barbarians need some skills as they progress in Ranks, and not just waiting with 8th and then every Rank thereafter, just not sure about how to do it.

RAW: 1, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 etc

Option 1: 1, 2, 4, 6, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 etc

Option 2: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 etc

The above assumes two things, the rank "1" selection is just the normal starting skills and not a selection of one of the skills of the mighty as such, and that the additional skills for knights and Barbarians will be used ( Ordo Draconis #1)

Leaning more towrds option 2 but would like to here some opinions.

Cheers

 

[muriwo]

Hi, I use a slightly more complex skill system in the game I GM but it comes closest to your option 2.

Basically, wizards increase in power significantly every rank (a new chunk of MPs, a new lot of spells), whereas fighters increase incrementally. So it makes things more fun if they can get a little bit more instead of just ATTACK, DEFENCE and HP.