Double and Triple Missiles

[Captain Jonah]

Putting this here because it came up and needs an official answer or clarification.

Under multiple weapons of the same type adding one per dice for each extra weapon of the same type we have double pulse doing 2D +2 and triple doing 2D +4 which is fair enough.

Sand casters throw out a denser sand cloud doing 1D +1 or 1D +2.

Now what about missiles. A triple missile turret is firing three separate missiles, they can be fired at with point defence separately, so are they combined then split again as some are taken out by point defence, are they fired in groups and you have to keep track of each group separately or do you just fire six missiles and however many get through do 4D each?

Each missile makes it's own to hit roll modified by the effect of the gunners roll which suggests they are treated separately.

Next question.

A double or triple turret only allows one type of weapon to be fired at the enemy, meaning that a beam laser, a sand caster and a missile launcher in a triple turret can fire one missile at an enemy, use the sand against enemy laser fire AND use the beam against incoming enemy missiles all at the same time. But what about the missile which guides its self to the target after the gunner has fired it.

Does the gunner need to spend the entire round concentrating on a missile and so can't fire his laser from the same turret or does he just need to give the missile a target and it does it's own thing leaving him free to spend the rest of the round playing a computer game called shoot the enemy ship?

If the gunner does need to concentrate on the missile what happens at long and very long range with multiple round flight times?

 

[Nerhesi]

You've made a an assumption that we need clarified I think:

a) Does a triple missile turret fire 3 missiles separately? As per the rules right now, it just fired once at 4D+8 damage as far as I can tell. You can't choose to fire weapons of the same type as "separate".

The second part is simple - the gunner never needs to guide the missile after he has fired it. I'm not sure where you feel this is indicated, and I'd be interested in finding out where you feel it is so

 

[Condottiere]

If the missiles all hit the same general area of the targetted hull on the same turn.

 

[vladthemad]

A triple turret with a mixed loadout is not able to fire all weapons, it's only able to fire one weapon in the combat round, check the last sentence of the first paragraph under Double and Triple Turrets. As to the rest, I agree multiple missiles from the same turret fired at the same time needs clarification.

 

[Nerhesi]

If the missiles all hit the same general area of the targetted hull on the same turn.

In both MGT1 and MGT2 - all missiles fired at the same turn, would hit the target on the same turn.

As for the actual mechanical effect or multiple missiles, I think we're waiting to see if the rules as written are actually intended as such. I am concerned for consistency when we get to bays, they fire 12 missiles lets say, how is that going to be treated? 4d6 x 12 or 4d6+44 (hah) ...

 

[Captain Jonah]

You've made a an assumption that we need clarified I think:

a) Does a triple missile turret fire 3 missiles separately? As per the rules right now, it just fired once at 4D+8 damage as far as I can tell. You can't choose to fire weapons of the same type as "separate".

The second part is simple - the gunner never needs to guide the missile after he has fired it. I'm not sure where you feel this is indicated, and I'd be interested in finding out where you feel it is so

A missile rack holds 12 missiles, a triple missile turret holds 36 missiles. Logically a triple missile rack fires three missiles at once.

But if they are combined how is this treated for point defence, do you shoot down one missile or three? What happens if the gunner shoots down only one or two? Combining and then un combining what are seeker weapons seems too complex which is why this needs to be clarified since missiles are used in a very different way to all other weapons.

The second part, a gunner can only fire a single weapon type at the enemy. So if a gunner does not guide the missiles to the target why can he not spend 30 seconds locking onto a target and firing his missiles which then do their won thing and spend the other 5 minutes 30 firing a laser?

The rules again state only one weapon fired from a mixed turret against an enemy so what is the gunner doing during the turn he fired the missile ?

I am looking for this to be written in such a way that it is clear rather than have us all interpret it the way we think it should be

 

[Captain Jonah]

A triple turret with a mixed loadout is not able to fire all weapons, it's only able to fire one weapon in the combat round, check the last sentence of the first paragraph under Double and Triple Turrets. As to the rest, I agree multiple missiles from the same turret fired at the same time needs clarification.

158 first column under double and triple turrets.

If these weapons are different (a pulse
laser, missile rack and sand caster in the same triple
turret, for example), then only one type may be used to
attack an enemy in a combat round.

158 second column at the bottom.

Just as in other forms of combat, those on board
a spacecraft can perform reactions in response to
the enemy they are fighting. Reactions can only be
performed by Travellers assigned to specific duties, as
described below.

Reactions are Evade (pilot), Point Defence (Gunner) and Disperse Sand (gunner).

71 left column at the top, combat section

In every round a character can perform one significant action (fire at an enemy) and one minor action (sip coffee) OR three minor actions.

In addition he can perform an unlimited number of reactions and free actions, free actions subject to ref limits, reactions with a -1 penalty to each subsequent action.

A gunner in a mixed turret of missile, beam, sand fires a missile at the enemy (attack enemy, significant action), disperses sand against enemy laser fire (reaction) AND point defence fire at incoming missile (reaction).

Which is the example I used in my original question and within the rules. my question was more that a beam or pulse spends the entire round tracking and hitting the enemy but the missile flies itself so could a turret with a missile, a pulse and a beam launch the missile that flies itself, fire the pulse at the enemy and hold the beam for point defence?

Again it's missiles needing clarification, the firing multiple weapons on a mixed turret is covered under significant action and reactions already.

 

[Bense]

The intent seems to be that 3 missiles fired from a triple missile turret are treated as one attack. The gunner makes one roll to fire them, they make one to-hit roll when they reach their target, a defender makes one roll to shoot them all down with point defense, and they do 4D+8 damage if they hit. The only advantage for having a triple turret is the increased damage, just like the other weapon types.
You could argue that since the missiles are sharing one launch source and one set of fire control that they are all flying a very similar course close together, and so can all be shot down by one point defense shot (which is made over the course of a 6-minute round, so it's not necessarily a single blast).

 

[Captain Jonah]

The intent seems to be that 3 missiles fired from a triple missile turret are treated as one attack. The gunner makes one roll to fire them, they make one to-hit roll when they reach their target, a defender makes one roll to shoot them all down with point defense, and they do 4D+8 damage if they hit. The only advantage for having a triple turret is the increased damage, just like the other weapon types.
You could argue that since the missiles are sharing one launch source and one set of fire control that they are all flying a very similar course close together, and so can all be shot down by one point defense shot (which is made over the course of a 6-minute round, so it's not necessarily a single blast).

Problem here is we are interpreting the intent of a rule that seems very clumsy when applied to seeking weapons which are completely different. Given the ranges of 10s of thousands of KM I could just as easily say that every single missile fired at the same time from a smallish ship would have exactly the same flight profile and grouping which gets to be fun when a single point defence roll takes out every missile from a merc cruiser. Or not if you are the merc cruiser.

The case for beams or pulses firing repeatedly over a time period becoming in effect a single attack is fine, firing three missiles somehow becoming a single attack doesn't make sense and makes them even weaker if they can be taken out with a single point defence, bearing in mind that a Beam laser fired in point defence at short range Auto hits with a skill 1 gunner.

Throw in gunner 2 and a stat bonus and ships are incredibly resistant to missile attacks. If you combine the missiles from a single turret or bay then a single beam laser with a gunner 1 and stat +1 or just gunner 2 can render his ship all but immune to the entire missile fire of a merc cruiser with it's four triple missile turrets requiring a roll of 3+ or 4+ to defeat the last turrets worth.

This gets even more ridiculous when bays arrive. A small bay throwing 12 missiles or a large bay throwing 20 missiles defeated by a single beam laser and a single point defence roll.

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

Smart Missiles, even if fired from the same turret at the same time, should not all impact on the exact same part of the hull. In fact, they should be designed to spread out a bit and present harder targets (1 shot doesn't kill multiple missiles).

I agree the rules as written make sense for light-speed weapons, but missiles might need their own special rule...

BTW, I do like that missiles are MUCH more powerful.

 

[Captain Jonah]

Smart Missiles, even if fired from the same turret at the same time, should not all impact on the exact same part of the hull. In fact, they should be designed to spread out a bit and present harder targets (1 shot doesn't kill multiple missiles).

I agree the rules as written make sense for light-speed weapons, but missiles might need their own special rule...

BTW, I do like that missiles are MUCH more powerful.

My point exactly, missiles are different and should have a different set of rules..

But agree that missiles are better as more powerful weapons, they force tactical changes like keeping point defence reserved rather than just ignoring them.

 

[AndrewW]

This gets even more ridiculous when bays arrive. A small bay throwing 12 missiles or a large bay throwing 20 missiles defeated by a single beam laser and a single point defence roll.

In the current rules 'large' bays fire 24 missiles, not 20.

 

[Captain Jonah]

This gets even more ridiculous when bays arrive. A small bay throwing 12 missiles or a large bay throwing 20 missiles defeated by a single beam laser and a single point defence roll.

In the current rules 'large' bays fire 24 missiles, not 20.

Even worse if one beam laser can auto kill the whole lot. The entire firepower of a 100Dton bay stopped by one little beam laser in a single turret on a scout. That's just embarrassing :lol:

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

Yeah, I hate it when that smart-alecky kid hits the bay door with his popgun and disables the entire bay.

For that one beam laser to disable the Bay, you would have to get a critical hit. tough to do with a single beam laser against decent armour (remember it has to do damage, not just bounce off armour) so it is very unlikely that a single beam laser will disable your bay weapon.

Over in the combat section, those that have playtested those rules are saying 1-2 critical hits per combat, and that is without super-armour and bay weapons.

 

[hdan]

Yeah, I hate it when that smart-alecky kid hits the bay door with his popgun and disables the entire bay.

That's not the point - the one beam laser can shoot down the entire "flight" with a single reaction roll.

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

Well, with a cumulative DM-1 for each shot, that might be unlikely. If the bay can launch 24 missiles, quite a few of them are going to get through that one gunner. Sure there are likely multiple gunners, but at that point we are probably using whatever the new Barrage rules look like.

Take a gunner with a good Dex and Gunner (turret) 1 (total DM+2).

She fires at a flight of incoming missiles.

2D+2 for 8+ with a cumulative DM-1 after the first shot.

She's probably only going to hit 2-3 before she fails a roll and will not be able to hit more than 8 and that would take some VERY high rolls.

This is the same rule from MGT1 I think.

 

[hdan]

Well, with a cumulative DM-1 for each shot, that might be unlikely. If the bay can launch 24 missiles, quite a few of them are going to get through that one gunner. Sure there are likely multiple gunners, but at that point we are probably using whatever the new Barrage rules look like.

Sure, which is how it should work. But let's say you have a triple missile turret, and launch all three racks at the enemy. If he'll forgive me for putting words in his mouth, I think Captain Jonah was pointing out that:

Page 158, Double and Triple Turrets:

However, if two or more weapons are of the same type, they may be fired together. One attack roll is made for all weapons being fired, but each additional weapon adds +1 per damage dice to the final damage total.

Page 160, Point Defense:

The gunner must succeed at a Gunner (turret) check against any missile that is about to make its attack roll against his spacecraft and, if successful, will automatically destroy it.

Per Page 158, a Triple-missile turret will only make one attack roll for all three missiles.
Per Page 160, the Point Defense roll happens once, not three times.

Clearly that's not what is intended, but it's what the rules say right now. Especially considering that sandcasters also get to play, though in a defensive role.

Inserting the word "Beam" in the sentence "...if two or more BEAM weapons are of..." would fix things.

Pedantic? Sure. But we've all been around Traveller players long enough to know how these things usually end up.

 

[Bense]

There aren't any rules in the current book for bays, so it's a bit premature to speculate how point defense is going to operate with missile bays. What we do know is how the rules are written to operate with missile racks in turrets - each turret is a single attack regardless of whether it's a single, double, or triple turret, and can be stopped by a single point defense shot, regardless of whether the defending turret is a single, double, or triple turret.

The test to successfully engage in point defense is Gunner (Turrets) at Average difficulty, so it's not an auto-success until you have a +6 modifier. There are no range modifiers and no weapon modifiers for point defense - the rules say those modifiers are used when attacking. So to get to auto-success on point defense you have to have a Gunner that's pretty hot stuff (say Dex 12 and Gunnery-4, or a top-flight Fire Control program), and then that's auto-success against one turret's attack. Note that your gunner also gets a -1DM on all his actions the next round if he uses a Reaction to engage in point defense this round, and if he has to do it more than once the penalties accumulate (-1 for each reaction to all actions next round).

The one gunner in a Scout, even if he is hot stuff with a +6 DM, is going to have a tough time stopping a full spread of missiles from a Merc Cruiser (assuming the Merc goes for 8 triple missile turrets). By the time he gets to the eighth flight of missiles he's rolling at -7, and now needs a 9 on the dice to stop them, and if another spread of missiles is coming in the next round, he's toast, because he'll start the round with a -8 reaction penalty from this round.

 

[Nerhesi]

The one gunner in a Scout, even if he is hot stuff with a +6 DM, is going to have a tough time stopping a full spread of missiles from a Merc Cruiser (assuming the Merc goes for 8 triple missile turrets). By the time he gets to the eighth flight of missiles he's rolling at -7, and now needs a 9 on the dice to stop them, and if another spread of missiles is coming in the next round, he's toast, because he'll start the round with a -8 reaction penalty from this round.

Yup - but what is wrong with that? Assuming its even 8 not 24 missiles. You have your one point defense gunner trying to stop 8 to 24 missiles? Even as a hot shot (and even with the intrinsic +4 accuracy for beam lasers), he's going to fall short of some... But this is one gunner, against at the very least, an 800 ton ships complement.

Previously that was the same problem - the only thing that made it a non-issue was that previously, missile damage sucked and was ignored with 12+ armor

 

[Bense]

Yup - but what is wrong with that?

As far as I'm concerned nothing's wrong with it. I'm pointing out that the rules work pretty well as written if you consider each turret to be one attack, regardless of whether it's single, double, or triple. If you start considering a triple missile turret to be three separate attacks then your basic scout gunner trying point defense is quickly overwhelmed, even if he's really good.

Even as a hot shot (and even with the intrinsic +4 accuracy for beam lasers), he's going to fall short of some... But this is one gunner, against at the very least, an 800 ton ships complement.

As I pointed out, the +4 accuracy on that table is for attacks (a significant action), not point defense (a reaction). You don't get that bonus when shooting down incoming missiles. No range bonus either.