Discounts for Technology levels, are there any?

Liam Devlin

Mongoose
This is a wondering out loud if there is a stated rule for discounts for items manufactured above their technology level outside of the Bk2: High Guard rules for Ship's components. I know of such a rule in the T20 ruleset, I am wondering if there is one in Mongoose Traveller.

If there is not, does anyone have a decent Homebrewed rule?

Thank you gentlemen, your thoughts please
 
I am not quite sure what "discount" could mean in this context, but I
think you might take a look at the Central Supply Catalogue (p. 12+),
it has rules for the creation of higher tech versions of equipment.
 
Liam Devlin said:
This is a wondering out loud if there is a stated rule for discounts for items manufactured above their technology level outside of the Bk2: High Guard rules for Ship's components. I know of such a rule in the T20 ruleset, I am wondering if there is one in Mongoose Traveller.

If there is not, does anyone have a decent Homebrewed rule?

Thank you gentlemen, your thoughts please

Not that I'm aware of. However, the HG rule seems like it would work across the boards. Given a bit of thought by the GM to make sure it makes sense. For example, Once a whole society stops using horse & buggy (in Trav, including systems that trade with planet) the price of new buggy's will rise, not fall...
 
I seem to recall some rules in the core book (not handy at the moment) for computers that I've used generally for all technological items as a rough handwave. I don't see it applying to every item, there's only so much you can do to improve on some things.
 
DFW said:
Once a whole society stops using horse & buggy (in Trav, including systems that trade with planet) the price of new buggy's will rise, not fall...

And tools that don't change much with technological advances are likely to stay fairly stable. Shovels don't change price much.
 
Liam Devlin said:
This is a wondering out loud if there is a stated rule for discounts for items manufactured above their technology level outside of the Bk2: High Guard rules for Ship's components. I know of such a rule in the T20 ruleset, I am wondering if there is one in Mongoose Traveller.

If there is not, does anyone have a decent Homebrewed rule?

Thank you gentlemen, your thoughts please

I agree with DFW, you should be able to apply the rule across the board for all gear.

DFW said:
Not that I'm aware of. However, the HG rule seems like it would work across the boards. Given a bit of thought by the GM to make sure it makes sense. For example, Once a whole society stops using horse & buggy (in Trav, including systems that trade with planet) the price of new buggy's will rise, not fall...

I think the rule as written makes sense. But more than three TL's off, then the product would tend to become more of a "classic" item. Today buying a carriage is NOT cheap. Like Traveller though, it is possible to go out in the world and find yourself an item that has not been actively made here but can be made far cheaper elsewhere. So I would suspect a trader might make a profit moving TL3 gear from one planet to a TL15 one, since nobody there would have the skill on how to make an "authentic" one. Though transportation costs might make it cost prohibitive for all but the wealthy. But then again, only someone looking for an item like that doesn't care much about the price.

Plus there are times when it doesn't make sense to pick up the cheaper item when the more current one is far superior (assuming you aren't flat broke that is). You might find that case of TL9 frag grenades to be really cheap, but those TL12 ones sure work a helluva lot better.
 
GypsyComet said:
And tools that don't change much with technological advances are likely to stay fairly stable. Shovels don't change price much.

They do by TL. Due to manufacturing being automated. But, they DO hit a plateau at a certain point.
 
Bk2: High Guard states:

There is a 5% price discount per TL for older technology devices
if bought new at the source, to a maximum of –30%. Characters
can buy second–hand outdated technology for a fraction of the price
(10% to 75%, depending on condition and usability). For example,
a character buying a new TL8 engine at a TL10 world gets a 10%
discount. A character buying TL8 engines from a scrapyard could
pick them up for 50% of their original cost.---p.52

Found it... :twisted:

So it is possible for up to -30% discount off original price at the source moving in 5% increments....

8)

So a TL9 item, made at TL15 could conceiveably come 30% cheaper (6 TL differential); But a TL7 item, made at TL15 has the same -30% (despite an 8 TL differential).

Yes gentlemen, I am aware of the "plateau affect" when other technological items come along and replace the older ones (Gypsy Comet's shovel example, e.g.)

I was looking at the profitability margins off Book Price for items made at higher tech levels and specifically for Imperial Client States, or Imperial megacorps on Non-aligned but trade friendly worlds to say the Imperium & Zhodani Consulate.

Let us say, medical/pharmaceutical products, made at TL-11-14, by a licensed subsidiary, Trade friendly world(s), that are *exempt* from direct Imperial taxes & perhaps lower labor costs than inside the Imperium/ Consulate

This would be 'outsourcing' would it not?

What is the best guess at the direct *Imperial tax* rate? I am trying to see how said product costs less to produce as sufficiently higher tech worlds vis-a-vis Imperial member worlds.

One may use Collace (Ht Hi In) TL-13, as an example versus say, Lunion (Hi Ht In) TL-13 for this bit, and a product of TL13, the Age-Slow Drug, for example. Compendium 1 book cost is 1Kcr a dose.

Collace cost :?:
Lunion Cost :?:
Tax rate :?:

The reason being is of course to see where & why SuSAG and other megacorp manufacturers like to outsource to High tech worlds just outside the Imperium, and how profitable that can be for them.
 
Liam Devlin said:
What is the best guess at the direct *Imperial tax* rate? I am trying to see how said product costs less to produce as sufficiently higher tech worlds vis-a-vis Imperial member worlds.

There is no direct Imperium Tax. Worlds tax at their own rates. The Imperium doesn't levy directly to a company. So, you might be looking at import duties by individual worlds.
 
DFW said:
Liam Devlin said:
What is the best guess at the direct *Imperial tax* rate? I am trying to see how said product costs less to produce as sufficiently higher tech worlds vis-a-vis Imperial member worlds.

There is no direct Imperium Tax. Worlds tax at their own rates. The Imperium doesn't levy directly to a company. So, you might be looking at import duties by individual worlds.

Ah, found it... By planetary Govt type, Book7: Merchant Prince, p. 87. Hmmm. Of course, this must needs some looking at where Travellers knowing the price is cheaper elsewhere travel to the location just over the border, or act as patrons for the crew of Players to go and fetch it for them...

Have to look at this and crunch some numbers, based on volume. Thanks Mssr DFW.
 
Juggling Law-levels, Governments, and Technology Levels to produce a result for storyline here in Urnian-P/ Foreven Sector, I noted two Imperial ports of embarkation for goods passing INTO the Imperium from the Urnian Stellar Thearchy (SP1001 Field Manual):

:arrow: Emape (0103)/ 5-Sisters-M/ B564500-B N I Ag Ga Ni A
&
:arrow: Raweh (0109)/ 5-Sisters-M/ B130300-B N I De Lo Ni A

According to Merchant Prince, p.87, such Hi-tech medical goods produced under Imperial licensed subsidiaries in the Thearchy (-5 to -30% off production costs) could be sold/ delivered at each location BACK to the parent Corporation (and others) for just the cost of shipping & maximum profit! :twisted: 8)

Jumping 4 from either:
:arrow: (from Emape>) Karin (0504)/ 5-Sisters-M/ A767768-C 2 I Ag Ga Ht Ri A

Captive/Colony Govt with maximum Profit tax of 25% (1Mcr+), however bans the sales of (LL-8) all medicinal drugs, Information tech, any non-critical offworld data, and personal media, TL5 items, and aside from all Psonic use, bans the sale of all Psionic technology.

:arrow: (from Raweh>) Wonstar (0508)/ 5-Sisters-M/ B455741-7 N I Ag Ga A

A Representative Democracy with a max profit tax of 25% (on 1Mcr+), and LL-1--all medical products allowed here, save those using nanotechnology. Planetary TL means Thearchy goods still cost -30% less than Imperial, but profit margin with major sales reduced to +5% vis-a-vis the planet's gross profits tax rate.

--Good location for re-packaging Thearchy Ht goods to Imperial bound markets! 8)
 
Liam Devlin said:
According to Merchant Prince, p.87, such Hi-tech medical goods produced under Imperial licensed subsidiaries in the Thearchy (-5 to -30% off production costs) could be sold/ delivered at each location BACK to the parent Corporation (and others) for just the cost of shipping & maximum profit! :twisted: 8)

On must be careful when using any Trav econ rules as they are uniformly, poorly thought out and you can end up with bizarre results like the one listed above...
 
Actually it makes a lot of sense... it's fairly common for governments to subsidise what they need most - but then for enterprising individuals to then buy those goods up and then sell on at a profit...

It happens in Europe with VAT rates (I can buy from elsewhere in the EU and not have to pay the UK's 20% rate for example) but also there are situations where supplies are bought up and sold on all over - but often forced into the black market due to rules and regulations.

Easy way around it - goods being shipped off-world (legally) have to pay back the subisidy for those goods or (b) they have to pay import duties when entering the Imperial systems for the first time with that cargo... Just a couple of ideas...
 
BFalcon said:
It happens in Europe with VAT rates (I can buy from elsewhere in the EU and not have to pay the UK's 20% rate for example) but also there are situations where supplies are bought up and sold on all over - but often forced into the black market due to rules and regulations.

Easy way around it - goods being shipped off-world (legally) have to pay back the subisidy for those goods or (b) they have to pay import duties when entering the Imperial systems for the first time with that cargo... Just a couple of ideas...

Yes, the EU isn't a proper example due to its internal trade rules. In Trav worlds would have import resale duties that would wipe out much of the TL price diff. Leaving, what you find on the spec trade tables...
 
DFW said:
Liam Devlin said:
According to Merchant Prince, p.87, such Hi-tech medical goods produced under Imperial licensed subsidiaries in the Thearchy (-5 to -30% off production costs) could be sold/ delivered at each location BACK to the parent Corporation (and others) for just the cost of shipping & maximum profit! :twisted: 8)

On must be careful when using any Trav econ rules as they are uniformly, poorly thought out and you can end up with bizarre results like the one listed above...

Bizarre or not, it plays into my writer's hands like a grand piano for the location! Outsourcing such pharmaceuticals as maybe considered illegal (by Law levels 3 thru 8, according Core Book, p.176) on some worlds however, does present a lucrative outside-the-Imperium angle here for SuSAG, just as the ship-building opportunities of the Thearchy present a lucrative outlet in the TL-C and below Imperial & Non-aligned worlds of 5-Sisters, D-268, and can compete even against TL-F Glisten fairly well (Govt 8, LL6, Max profit tax rate 16% [1Mcr+] vs Urnian Govt D, LL9, Max profit tax rate 18% [1Mcr+])--the 2% edge going to Glisten in this case.

So as an economic power, the Thearchy in Urnian does well in the Imperium, by and large... that's my point from a writing standpoint :wink:
 
As for items like simple machines & tools-- shovels I believe was the example used-- the common sense approach applies like this I believe:

Shovel
Initial Tech level of manufacture (hand made by craftsman as better materials come along) TL1 thru TL2. By TL3 the item has general craftsman uniformity of purpose, shape, and design.

Industrial age-(mass production techniques, metallurgical improvement)
TL4-6.

Automation-Industrial Age -TL7-9 (e.g. cranked out like hotdogs). The TL9 made shovel still resembles the TL2 shovel. the cost to make it/ market it is 30% less than the *finalized* TL3 version. Making a shovel by robots at TL's higher than 9 yields no benefits greater than 30% as the item has no refinements save perhaps in metallurgy, and powered equipment, or drones that can do the digging have replaced human labor entirely to some degree.
(edited for spelling)
 
Also, by about TL 7-9, you'd have specialist variations/gimmick types - lightweight, folding, combination, entrenching tools, etc.
 
Liam Devlin said:
Shovel
Initial Tech level of manufacture (hand made by craftsman as better materials come along) TL1 ...

This is how/why I thought the rule existed. Should be the example in the rule book.
 
Rick said:
Also, by about TL 7-9, you'd have specialist variations/gimmick types - lightweight, folding, combination, entrenching tools, etc.
At around TL 12 or so you could also get a shovel with something like a
monomolecular edge, able to "cut" through almost all kinds of materials
with ease - needing less strength to use it for the "shove" part (and tur-
ning it into a nasty melee weapon in the wrong hands). 8)
 
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