Difficulty, Boon/Bane, and DMs

[AndrewW]

Oops, hit the button twice. Sorry.

One can go to Edit then from there delete their own posts.

 

[-Daniel-]

Oops, hit the button twice. Sorry.

One can go to Edit then from there delete their own posts.

I thought the delete option only works until someone posts after you.

 

[Wizard]

To better explain my reasoning concerning the current Boon/Bane mechanic lets take an example:

After weeks of searching, Mary, the bounty hunter, has finally located Fred, a dangerous homicidal fugitive. Fred is in the house down the street, drinking heavily, while Mary is hidden amongst some bushes waiting for Fred to come out. Mary, trying to stack the odds in her favour, positions herself so the sun is behind her and will be blinding to Fred once he steps out of the building. The wait begins. The earth starts to shake, an earthquake. Fred runs out of the building and as he does, Mary takes her shot. The trembling earth gives her a Bane and she misses. Fred pulls out his gun and takes a shot back at Mary. He also gets Bane due to the earthquake, his drunkenness, and the sun in his eyes.

In the above example, Mary gets the same penalty as Fred, even though Fred is suffering from more negative circumstances then Mary.

If we replace Boon/Bane with DMs, then Mary would have a DM-2, while Fred would have a DM-5. I find that reasonable and easy to apply. This also adds to the roleplaying as now with the odds being against Fred, he decides to take off hoping to get away instead of shooting back.

Otherwise the only other way I can see the above working in a way I think is fair and reasonable is to stack Boon/Bane, where Fred would roll 5 dice in total and only use the 2 lowest.

 

[CosmicGamer]

This also adds to the roleplaying as now with the odds being against Fred, he decides to take off hoping to get away instead of shooting back.

To me that is playing the game mechanics not role playing the drunk and homicidal Fred.

However I do believe I get the point of this example.

And yes, this is more an issue with the bane/boon not stacking than of the actual bane/boon vs DMs.

However, the DM's can add up to the point (roll 12 -5DM = 7) where Fred could shoot all day long and not a single shot has any possibility of hitting Mary. Yes, I know, lots of possibilities regarding DMs for aiming and dodging and so on. The point is that the difficulty is the difficulty and DM's like skill and attribute and so on are for adjusting how likely. Skill, characteristics and so on.

I don't mind the unskilled poor characteristic character having no chance at all at something that is beyond their ability.

But keep adding DM's and you don't just change how hard something is, they can shift things all out of whack so that something is impossible instead of just hard. They also can throw effect out of whack too - though that's a whole different discussion.

Now you could have an instance where because your drunk, the sun is in your eyes, and there is an earthquake, the situational DMs that are just supposed to make something harder have made it impossible. I could be completely behind cover with just my hand sticking out, firing in the general direction I last saw the enemy and still have some chance to shoot someone. Odds are low, but should it be impossible?

The point is that either way can lead to an unrealistic situation - though It seams stacking the bane/boon is probably the least problematic.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

Otherwise the only other way I can see the above working in a way I think is fair and reasonable is to stack Boon/Bane, where Fred would roll 5 dice in total and only use the 2 lowest.

2D-5 (a range of roughly -2 to 6) vs. Bane of 5 (a range of roughly 3). Is there a certain Effect you are going for, or just pass/fail?

 

[Wizard]

This also adds to the roleplaying as now with the odds being against Fred, he decides to take off hoping to get away instead of shooting back.

To me that is playing the game mechanics not role playing the drunk and homicidal Fred.

I meant roleplaying from putting myself in Fred's shoes and thinking, "Heck, someone is shooting at me, can't see them as that sun is so bright, I shouldn't of had that last beer as I can hardly stand as the world is shaking all around me. I'm out of here." I like it when the game mechanics reflect the situation back so that it reinforces this cause and effect and gives reason to character actions.

 

[-Daniel-]

To better explain my reasoning concerning the current Boon/Bane mechanic lets take an example:....

I am curious, does it always have to be one way or the other?

Why not Mary has a bane and Fred has a DM-2 for being impaired and has an increased difficulty because he is facing the sun and a Bane for the earthquake?

The way I understand what some are suggesting it would look something like this:

The GM set the difficulty higher for Fred knowing he will be facing the sun. (Say Difficult 10+)
Using the fatigue rules as we don't have drunk rules; DM-2
Bane Role for the unplanned earthquake.


So I guess I am asking does it have to be only bane rolls or DMs in your thinking?

 

[CosmicGamer]

2D-5 (a range of roughly -2 to 6) vs. Bane of 5 (a range of roughly 3).

Could you please explain where you get your bane range? Dropping dice does not change the range, just the probability curve. You can still roll all 1's or all 6's to have a full range from 2-12 (without DMs). At least that's my understanding.

 

[Wizard]

Otherwise the only other way I can see the above working in a way I think is fair and reasonable is to stack Boon/Bane, where Fred would roll 5 dice in total and only use the 2 lowest.

2D-5 (a range of roughly -2 to 6) vs. Bane of 5 (a range of roughly 3). Is there a certain Effect you are going for, or just pass/fail?

I want the game mechanics to reflect the situation at hand. In this case the odds are against Fred, earthquake, drunk, can't really see who he is shooting at, the mechanics should reflect this and basically give Fred no chance of hitting Mary. With the DMs, he will have no chance (assuming there are no other DMs). With a Bane of 5, he still does have a chance. I just rolled a few times (ok, lots of times) and managed to get a 9 result.

So what does Fred do. He runs off. Waits for the earthquake to stop and hopefully can hide away to allow him to sober up. But just in case Mary keeps coming after him, he makes sure he is somewhere that will not let Mary have the sun behind her again. Eventually Mary does find him, but by this time the earthquake has stopped and the only situational penalty Fred has is he is still drunk. So Fred would now have a single Bane, or be DM-2 if the Boon/Bane mechanic is not used.

 

[-Daniel-]

Could you please explain where you get your bane range? Dropping dice does not change the range, just the probability curve. You can still roll all 1's or all 6's to have a full range from 2-12 (without DMs). At least that's my understanding.

That is how I understand it as well. Roll three 1s and I still have a 2, roll three 6s and I still have a 12. The probability shifts, but the range should be the same, assuming no DMs as you said. 8)

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

2D-5 (a range of roughly -2 to 6) vs. Bane of 5 (a range of roughly 3).

Could you please explain where you get your bane range? Dropping dice does not change the range, just the probability curve. You can still roll all 1's or all 6's to have a full range from 2-12 (without DMs). At least that's my understanding.

Percentages then. But roughly 3 to 4, maybe 5. Mostly 3 though. Some curves. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1B8-IuYP9k

I want the game mechanics to reflect the situation at hand. In this case the odds are against Fred, earthquake, drunk, can't really see who he is shooting at, the mechanics should reflect this and basically give Fred no chance of hitting Mary.

Maybe a roll isn't needed then, if that is the case.

 

[Wizard]

To better explain my reasoning concerning the current Boon/Bane mechanic lets take an example:....

I am curious, does it always have to be one way or the other?

Why not Mary has a bane and Fred has a DM-2 for being impaired and has an increased difficulty because he is facing the sun and a Bane for the earthquake?

The way I understand what some are suggesting it would look something like this:

The GM set the difficulty higher for Fred knowing he will be facing the sun. (Say Difficult 10+)
Using the fatigue rules as we don't have drunk rules; DM-2
Bane Role for the unplanned earthquake.

So I guess I am asking does it have to be only bane rolls or DMs in your thinking?

I am trying to stay within the rules as written, well my interpretation of them anyway. Situational modifiers are handled by the Boon/Bane mechanic. Facing the sun should be handled by Bane, just as "dimly lit environment" is, and that example comes from the description of the Bane mechanic on page 59.

If we start saying that a particular situation is a Bane, but a similar situation is a DM we are adding ambiguity and confusion to the game. It should be clear what it is, especially to a new referee.

As a note, I have no issue with changing the rules to suit my playstyle and to make the game run smoother for me. I have mostly decided I will stack Boon/Bane in my games if the mechanic remains in its current form. But for the time being, I am trying to not do that and stick with the rules as written during the playtest.

 

[-Daniel-]

I am trying to stay within the rules as written, well my interpretation of them anyway. Situational modifiers are handled by the Boon/Bane mechanic.

Ok, I guess we need to agree that the rules as written are vague and thus we read them differently. The rules say to me that the DM sets the difficulty based on the situation. Pg 58 states; "Some tasks are easier or harder to complete than others and so far we have just looked at Average checks that need 8+ to succeed. When the referee decides a task should be either easier or harder, he may change the target number needed for the check."
So in my mind, the GM sets the difficulty for the tasks before they begin to add in DMs or assign Boon or Bane rolls.

Facing the sun should be handled by Bane, just as "dimly lit environment" is, and that example comes from the description of the Bane mechanic on page 59.

See this is where you and I deviate from each other. Because Mary set up the situation, I would say that the increased difficulty based on the above quote covers the situation. Please understand I am not saying I am right, just that I see it different is all. And because of it, I still say the small four Bane/Boon paragraphs on pg 59 are not clear enough.

But for the time being, I am trying to not do that and stick with the rules as written during the playtest.

I agree, I just don't see us seeing the same entry different means either of us are not trying to use the rules as written. It means I think it could use some clarification. 8)

 

[MongooseMatt]

The idea (currently!) is that it breaks down like this;

Ref, rules or adventure sets the Difficulty, depending on source of the check.

Rules (and maybe adventure - either way, the written word) set DMs.

Ref applies Boon/Bane, dependant on conditions present.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

The idea (currently!) is that it breaks down like this;

Ref, rules or adventure sets the Difficulty, depending on source of the check.

Rules (and maybe adventure - either way, the written word) set DMs.

Ref applies Boon/Bane, dependant on conditions present.

If only I could sticky this somewhere.

 

[-Daniel-]

The idea (currently!) is that it breaks down like this;

Ref, rules or adventure sets the Difficulty, depending on source of the check.

Rules (and maybe adventure - either way, the written word) set DMs.

Ref applies Boon/Bane, dependant on conditions present.

This does seem simple enough that it would make a great statement in the book itself, cleaned up a little though. :mrgreen:

 

[Wizard]

The idea (currently!) is that it breaks down like this;

Ref, rules or adventure sets the Difficulty, depending on source of the check.

Rules (and maybe adventure - either way, the written word) set DMs.

Ref applies Boon/Bane, dependant on conditions present.

Matthew consider the following scenario:

After weeks of searching, Mary, the bounty hunter, has finally located Fred, a dangerous homicidal fugitive. Fred is in the house down the street, drinking heavily, while Mary is hidden amongst some bushes waiting for Fred to come out. Mary, trying to stack the odds in her favour, positions herself so the sun is behind her and will be blinding to Fred once he steps out of the building. The wait begins. The earth starts to shake, an earthquake. Fred runs out of the building and as he does, Mary takes her shot. The trembling earth gives her a Bane and she misses. Fred pulls out his gun and takes a shot back at Mary. He also gets Bane due to the earthquake, his drunkenness, and the sun in his eyes.

I just want to get the Boon/Bane mechanic totally clear in my head from your point of view as no matter how hard I try I still see Mary getting 1 Bane, while Fred gets 3. To me this just seems to be the simplest and consistent way of adjudicating this situation. Basically I see the difficulty being set by the Attack Significant Action itself (being 8+, page 71), DMs will be for Mary's cover, but not for the earthquake, sun in Fred's eyes or his drunkenness. I see these last conditions as Banes.

Could you describe how you would handle it using your guidelines? Hopefully that will nudge my brain over to your way of thinking .

 

[amerginsrd]

The idea (currently!) is that it breaks down like this;

Ref, rules or adventure sets the Difficulty, depending on source of the check.

Rules (and maybe adventure - either way, the written word) set DMs.

Ref applies Boon/Bane, dependant on conditions present.

This is pretty straight forward but does not really speak to my concern with how quickly DMs pile up causing effect inflation. The advantage of the boon/bane, as has been stated else where, is in reflecting things that could modify success without increasing effect. Perhaps rather than using a set of definitions for what is a DM and what is a boon/bane, you could use DMs up to a + or - 3 and use boon/bane die after that.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

The idea (currently!) is that it breaks down like this;

Ref, rules or adventure sets the Difficulty, depending on source of the check.

Rules (and maybe adventure - either way, the written word) set DMs.

Ref applies Boon/Bane, dependant on conditions present.

This is pretty straight forward but does not really speak to my concern with how quickly DMs pile up causing effect inflation. The advantage of the boon/bane, as has been stated else where, is in reflecting things that could modify success without increasing effect. Perhaps rather than using a set of definitions for what is a DM and what is a boon/bane, you could use DMs up to a + or - 3 and use boon/bane die after that.

Referees get to choose if Boon/Bane is used in a given situation. Or if the roll is even needed.

 

[CosmicGamer]

consider the following scenario:

In your scenario, what if Fred has food poisoning, a pebble in his shoe, a blister on his hand, his comm chirps distracting him, a bird flies over and craps on his head, a fly goes up his nose and he sneezes...

On a more serious note,

Earthquake could be part of "Ref, rules or adventure sets the Difficulty" for both parties.

Sun in the eyes could be treated like the rules treat smoke, darkness and other vision impairments (although the rules are not clear on how to handle these - see further down my post) with perhaps "Rules (and maybe adventure - either way, the written word) set DMs"

Although it is not specifically covered, I feel being drunk could be treated as a disease or poison. Alcohol poisoning. If he really is so inebriated that the GM thinks it may effects his abilities, an END check (or checks depending on how much he's drinking) is needed long before Fred comes out the door. He might take 1d temporary damage to Dex. He might have to roll to see if he falls unconscious.

At this point I think everything is covered by the rules and there are no bane/boons or did I miss something?

Keep in mind that their are other rules in the book, like a task chain, that might be helpful in some situations.

-------------
Part of the bane/boon confusion is other parts of the rules don't agree when bane/boon is used.

As pointed out before, on page 58, the difficulty of a task is adjusted due to weather, but on page 78 the section on weather says a bane is used and then on a combination of page 207 "smoke, fog or other environmental effects that impede vision" + page 124 disrupts vision and imposes DM-2. So we have difficulty, DMs, and bane all possible due to environment. :roll:

Am I missing some place that describes darkness, fog, and other vision impairments in better detail?