designing logical world creation system

[sideranautae]

Another problem with Traveller's treatment of technology levels is
the relation between core worlds and frontier worlds. The usual
assumption is that core worlds have a higher technology level than
frontier worlds. However, this runs into the problem that new colo-
nies may use the most recent technology when they build up their
industry, and as a result may have on average more modern indus-
trial equipment than the core worlds. In my view a core with "old
industry" and a frontier with "new industry" is just as likely as the
traditional concept of a high-tech core and a low-tech frontier, es-
pecially when advanced automation reduces the importance of a
large workforce and there is no major difference in the education
systems' quality between core and frontier.

Doesn't really work that way at TL above ~5. It takes more than new machinery. There are SO many areas that interlock to achieve a high tech product. For instance China for everything it has stolen & purchased tech wise cannot produce may high tech items because some industries take decades to bring up to speed because of know how. Doesn't matter what they have equipment wise. It is a combination of experience, human capital, know how, and equipment.

Why do you think that once a year you will find a person from NASA travelling to a little town in Germany to get some very special piece glass made that can't be made anywhere else in the world? Now, after a few decades that investment in new equip can make a difference. But immediately.

 

[phavoc]

One of the problems is that Traveller normally uses only one general technology level which covers all of the many fields of technology, a rather simplistic approach. A planet's industry may well be advanced in one field of technology (e.g. habitats and life support systems on a hostile planet) and retarded in other fields of technology (e.g. ground transport on a water world). Since detailed planets are likely to have unique combinations of environment and development they are also
likely to have unique mixes of advanced and retarded fields of technology - rather difficult to simulate with any system.

That's very true. Our planet has a mixture of TL, and you can travel to many places that have intermittent electricity, no running water, low-tech housing and everyone has a TL-8 cell phone and a number have computers.

I've always viewed TL as the average you'll find in the larger population centers. It's not impossible to get TL-14 equipment on a TL-10 world, but you'll pay a higher price and the supply is limited. Lower tech worlds are always going to import higher tech goods when it makes economic and operational sense to do so. They will just do so judiciously.

Doesn't really work that way at TL above ~5. It takes more than new machinery. There are SO many areas that interlock to achieve a high tech product. For instance China for everything it has stolen & purchased tech wise cannot produce may high tech items because some industries take decades to bring up to speed because of know how. Doesn't matter what they have equipment wise. It is a combination of experience, human capital, know how, and equipment.

Why do you think that once a year you will find a person from NASA travelling to a little town in Germany to get some very special piece glass made that can't be made anywhere else in the world? Now, after a few decades that investment in new equip can make a difference. But immediately.

It works that way regardless of TL. Let's take aerospace for instance. China's COMAC is trying to develop an indigenously produced airliner. Right now they are working on a 737 equivalent (C919). Delivery dates of the initial aircraft have slipped by years because they have no experience and they are still learning. The related support infrastructure is also very nascent. Airbus, when they first came out with their aircraft, took nearly a decade to establish a customer support infrastructure to get parts and services to their clients as efficiently as Boeing did. And Europe had the tech and the brains, but had to get the experience. Though if it had been available they might have just bought the experience by purchasing a company that had it already. There are rumors China is looking at buying/partnering with Fokker or Bombardier because both have the experience that China lacks - but China has cash so that will work too.

As far as the glass example goes, you will always find an outlier or singular example of a good, tech or service that is simply too specialized to be compared to the mainstream. If there's only a market for a dozen glass widgets world-wide, how many companies do you think will be in that line of work?

What we have seen here is that when you are low tech you can leap-frog over the levels in between to get to a higher industrial and technological level. China did it, going from 1950's era tech to 2000's tech in just a decade or so. They didn't need the steps in between that the US went through because the tech was already created and improved upon. Other countries have gone from having almost no telecom infrastructure to going straight to state-of-the-art cellular and fiber networks. They didn't need to lay copper, coax and everything in between.

 

[GypsyComet]

What we have seen here is that when you are low tech you can leap-frog over the levels in between to get to a higher industrial and technological level. China did it, going from 1950's era tech to 2000's tech in just a decade or so. They didn't need the steps in between that the US went through because the tech was already created and improved upon. Other countries have gone from having almost no telecom infrastructure to going straight to state-of-the-art cellular and fiber networks. They didn't need to lay copper, coax and everything in between.

There are some technological steps that can be skipped over by those who follow, to be sure, but doing so can make that particular bit of infrastructure more fragile, too. With no copper or optical fiber, a phone system can be crippled by a jammer in a car, and without the web of old short-ranged traffic control entities, a modern airliner can be lost for months.

Worlds that came up through the TLs on their own won't have this problem as often, but you have to assume a very particular set of social, economic, and political circumstances to keep those conditions in place for very long across a star map.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

I agree with the OP on the general idea of the physics and technology involved to live in some systems. The big thing has always been the Starport and TL.

The real key is what does the TL represent? If it is to represent the general Tech of the world INDEPENDENT of Starport, then one problem is eliminated for wonky worlds. It depends on how you treat starports in YTU.
If one maintains an insistence that the TL and Starport are tied together, then every world would have a minimum TL based on the greater of Minimum level to maintain Starport or Minimum needed to live there.

One thing that has not been discussed is the wear and tear brought on by history. While the oldest versions of Traveller did not have this in mind exactly, "wonky" systems to some extent can be simply explained away by settlement date and isolation.

In a 2300AD campaign, this does not make much sense as humanity has active in its colonies and has not experienced a depression of some sort to isolate systems for generations. True.

In the OTU, however....
From the "Golden Age" date of 1105, there was this thousand year plus of The Long Night which left many planets to develop its unique cultures. Over a thousand years of isolation and independent depression, collapse and rise for many systems. There is also the question of is the Starport maintained by the world or the Imperium.

 

[GypsyComet]

In the OTU, however....
From the "Golden Age" date of 1105, there was this thousand year plus of The Long Night which left many planets to develop its unique cultures. Over a thousand years of isolation and independent depression, collapse and rise for many systems.

All part of the underlying assumptions that drive the post-CT iterations of UWP generation. One thing to note is that the Long Night has probably been subjected to spin by Third Imperium historians. "There was no unifying over-government! Oh, the horror!"

The project that appears to be driving the OP's posts is an ATU with different assumptions.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

If you are tying in TL and Staports and other factors together for a more uniform generation of TL and Starport:
On the environmental side, Core Rules page 179 has the "Environmental Limits" for minimum TL.

On Starports (not taking into account prototyping or High Guard), from the Core Rules,
Starport A would imply TL 9+ always, because of the Shipyard (all) quality. Have to have TL9+ to build Jump Drives.

TL 9: (Pre-Stellar) The defining element of TL 9 is the development of gravity manipulation, which makes space travel vastly safer and faster. This research leads to development of the Jump drive, which occurs near the end of this Tech Level. TL 9 cultures can colonise other worlds, although going to a colony is generally a one-way trip. - pg 4

 

[phavoc]

There are some technological steps that can be skipped over by those who follow, to be sure, but doing so can make that particular bit of infrastructure more fragile, too. With no copper or optical fiber, a phone system can be crippled by a jammer in a car, and without the web of old short-ranged traffic control entities, a modern airliner can be lost for months.

I think this problem is not so great. Ever since the advent of communication infrastructure it's been vulnerable to disruption. A guy running a backhoe can knock out power or gas to city blocks. A little old lady looking for copper lines can dig up a fiber optic trunk and knock out the interwebz for hundreds of thousands of people (true story!). Or lets talk about the electrical grid. A software bug in Ohio caused a power outage for nearly 55 million people.

A robust infrastructure that is fault tolerant is expensive and only exists where the regulatory agencies require it (and consumers are willing to pay for it). Our (US) phone system is 5-nines in reliability because the government requires it. But more and more people are dropping their land lines for just cell, and cell networks have different standards. But the US system is far more robust than many others.

Worlds that came up through the TLs on their own won't have this problem as often, but you have to assume a very particular set of social, economic, and political circumstances to keep those conditions in place for very long across a star map.

These worlds should be few and far between that came up on their own. Most are going to be colonies of some other planet. Planets need to be close to being independent in things like foodstuffs and basic tech goods but will most likely import the rest - or at least where it makes economic and social sense to do so until they can develop their own internal economies.

I would suspect that most high TL planets fall somewhere within the economic model of being like Germany or a number of the Asian countries. The economies are export driven. The US is kind of odd when compared to other G8 nations in that our economic model doesn't quite fit the standard mold. We export high tech and basic agro products, but import a lot of consumer goods and some raw materials.

In any case it's not terribly important to model the economic trade model for the Traveller universe. With a few tweaks the existing model suffices for RPG gaming.

 

[Golan2072]

Oh yes. Yes indeed. I found a python app on COTI for generating worlds and subsectors, and I constantly tinker with it to try different results.

Does this happen, by any chance, to be my SecGen script? If so, I'm glad someone is actually using it!

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

What's the min TL to have a Star port?

TL 0.

I was asking for Matt's rules not MGT's. I'm all too familiar with the RAW which is why I'm redesigning the rules.

But, as an FYI, a place like Patrick AFB can't handle random arriving space craft. We really don't have any space ports on Earth. Well, no more than Orville & Wilbur's strip and work shack area was an Airport...

Sure it could, so long as it has got wheels and can land on a runway. A Scout/Courier should be able to land at Edward' Air Force Base with no problem. The only problem they might encounter would be the reaction of the humans at the Air Force base.

 

[Matt Wilson]

Oh yes. Yes indeed. I found a python app on COTI for generating worlds and subsectors, and I constantly tinker with it to try different results.

Does this happen, by any chance, to be my SecGen script? If so, I'm glad someone is actually using it!

Yup, same one I messaged you about over at SFRPG.

 

[Golan2072]

Excellent!

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

The Traveller system doesn't generate worlds larger than size A 16,000 km in diameter, a size A world has a gravity of about 1.25 g. I think someone needs to rethink that table in light of all these exoplanet discoveries. I really think rolling 3d6-2 for planet size would be better, and I think a separate roll to determine whether its an asteroid belt of a planet would be better.
World Size 3d6-2 the rest of the tables work fine as is, though hydrographics might need to be adjusted if you want something other than water worlds for large planet sizes
Digit
1 1600 km
2 3200 km
3 4500 km
4 6400 km
5 8000 km
6 9600 km
7 11,200 km
8 12,800 km
9 14,400 km
A 16,000 km
B 17,600 km
C 19,200 km
D 20,500 km
E 22,400 km
F 24,000 km
G 25,600 km

Atmosphere 3d6-10+World Size
0 Vacuum
1 Trace 0.01 bar
2 Very Thin, tainted 0.1 bar
3 Very Thin 0.1 bar
4 Thin, Tainted 0.33 bar (20% oxygen, same as mount Everest approx.)
5 Thin 0.33 bar (60% Oxygen, can be breathed by humans without oxygen masks)
6 Standard 1 bar (20% oxygen, Same as Earth as Sea Level)
7 Standard, Tainted 1 bar (7% oxygen or less)
8 Dense 3 bars (7% oxygen, can be breathed without oxygen masks)
9 Dense, Tainted 3 bars (2% oxygen or less, requires air filter masks)
A Exotic 10 bars (oxygen masks required)
B Corrosive 100 bars (1 km beneath Earth's oceans)
C Insidious 100 bars combined with high temperatures (The surface of Venus)
D Dense, High Pressure 100 bars at surface, (same as Insidious at surface, but at a high altitude 50 km for example, the oxygen percentage is sufficient to allow for unassisted breathing, roll 1d6(1-2 Dense atmosphere at this altitude, 3-4 standard atmosphere, or 5-6 thin atmosphere)
E Ellipsoid (Standard, thin, or Dense atmospheres at certain latitudes, elsewhere th atmosphere is unbreathable without mechanical assistance)
F Thin, Low Pressure 0.33 bars with 60% oxygen(High gravity World, or a world with a dense gas acting as a moderator, Argon instead of Nitrogen for instance, air is breathable only at the lowest altitudes above sea level.
G Gas Dwarf 1000+ bars (Planet is in a transitory stage between terrestrial World and gas giant, the surface is inaccessible)

Hydrographics 3d6-10+World Size
0 0% = old 0
1 25% = old 3
2 30% = old 3
3 35% = old 4
4 40% = old 4
5 45% = old 5
6 50% = old 5
7 55% = old 6
8 60% = old 6
9 65% = old 7
A 70% = old 7
B 75% = old 8
C 80% = old 8
D 85% = old 9
E 90% = old 9
F 95% = old A
G 100% = old A

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

The Traveller system doesn't generate worlds larger than size A 16,000 km in diameter, a size A world has a gravity of about 1.25 g. I think someone needs to rethink that table in light of all these exoplanet discoveries. I really think rolling 3d6-2 for planet size would be better, and I think a separate roll to determine whether its an asteroid belt of a planet would be better.
World Size 3d6-2 the rest of the tables work fine as is, though hydrographics might need to be adjusted if you want something other than water worlds for large planet sizes
Digit
1 1600 km
2 3200 km
3 4500 km
4 6400 km
5 8000 km
6 9600 km
7 11,200 km
8 12,800 km
9 14,400 km
A 16,000 km
B 17,600 km
C 19,200 km
D 20,500 km
E 22,400 km
F 24,000 km
G 25,600 km

Atmosphere 3d6-10+World Size
0 Vacuum
1 Trace 0.01 bar
2 Very Thin, tainted 0.1 bar
3 Very Thin 0.1 bar
4 Thin, Tainted 0.33 bar (20% oxygen, same as mount Everest approx.)
5 Thin 0.33 bar (60% Oxygen, can be breathed by humans without oxygen masks)
6 Standard 1 bar (20% oxygen, Same as Earth as Sea Level)
7 Standard, Tainted 1 bar (7% oxygen or less)
8 Dense 3 bars (7% oxygen, can be breathed without oxygen masks)
9 Dense, Tainted 3 bars (2% oxygen or less, requires air filter masks)
A Exotic 10 bars (oxygen masks required)
B Corrosive 100 bars (1 km beneath Earth's oceans)
C Insidious 100 bars combined with high temperatures (The surface of Venus)
D Dense, High Pressure 100 bars at surface, (same as Insidious at surface, but at a high altitude 50 km for example, the oxygen percentage is sufficient to allow for unassisted breathing, roll 1d6(1-2 Dense atmosphere at this altitude, 3-4 standard atmosphere, or 5-6 thin atmosphere)
E Ellipsoid (Standard, thin, or Dense atmospheres at certain latitudes, elsewhere th atmosphere is unbreathable without mechanical assistance)
F Thin, Low Pressure 0.33 bars with 60% oxygen(High gravity World, or a world with a dense gas acting as a moderator, Argon instead of Nitrogen for instance, air is breathable only at the lowest altitudes above sea level.
G Gas Dwarf 1000+ bars (Planet is in a transitory stage between terrestrial World and gas giant, the surface is inaccessible)

Hydrographics 3d6-10+World Size
0 0% to 24% = old 0 to 2
1 25% = old 3
2 30% = old 3
3 35% = old 4
4 40% = old 4
5 45% = old 5
6 50% = old 5
7 55% = old 6
8 60% = old 6
9 65% = old 7
A 70% = old 7
B 75% = old 8
C 80% = old 8
D 85% = old 9
E 90% = old 9
F 95% = old A
G 100% = old A

 

[Matt Wilson]

I would think that a world bigger than size A isn't going to look all that enticing.

But then again I think that about atm C.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

If you like we could rate the planet sizes by Mass instead of diameter.
Digit Earth Masses
1 0.001953125
2 0.015625
3 0.052734375
4 0.125
5 0.244140625
6 0.421875
7 0.669921875
8 1
9 1.423828125
A 1.953125
B 2.599609375
C 3.375
D 4.108011723
E 5.359375
F 6.591796875
G 8
Earth has a density of 5.515 g/cm^3
Ganymede has a density of 1.936 g/cm^3
Less than half the density of the Earth.
The world size tables of Traveller assume a density equal to the Earth so gravity at the surface of the world is proportional to its diameter. But lets suppose the world is question is one made primarily of water like Ganymede, allowing for gravitational compression, lets say the density is 2.255 g/cm^2
The World codes for water worlds would be as follows:
Water World sizes
1 252 km
2 1,008 km
3 2,126 km
4 4,032 km
5 6,300 km
6 9,071 km
7 12,347 km
8 16,127 km
9 20,411 km
A 25,198 km
B 30,490 km
C 36,286 km
D 41,366 km
E 49,389 km
F 56,696 km
G 64,508 km

Water World surface gravity
1 0.009843133 g
2 0.039372533 g
3 0.083051436 g
4 0.157490131 g
5 0.24607833 g
6 0.354352795 g
7 0.482313527 g
8 0.629960525 g
9 0.797293789 g
A 0.98431332 g
B 1.191019117 g
C 1.417411181 g
D 1.615850284 g
E 1.929254108 g
F 2.214704971 g
G 2.5198421 g