Demonstrating the usefulness of Scholars

[slaughterj]

I just started running Conan again (1st level characters), and had someone decide to try to run a Scholar who found the magic to be substantially useless in his mind, even looking ahead at various advanced spells, though acknowledging the magic fits the genre. Have others encountered this before, and how have you addressed it? Here was my emailed response to him about it (with the arrows) and his response to my response:

> You are right that the 7th level scholar would provide
> a good basis for comparison, and I think it would be
> quite effective in combat if so desired. I think DnD
> magic tends to pamper PCs by having attack spells,
> defense spells, and movement/utility spells, and then
> with all that, one might as well play supers. I

Yeah, it's awful having spells that are useful doing the activity that
you
spend most of your time doing.

> actually think the magic in Conan can be potent fairly
> early on with the touch paralysis spell, telekinesis
> with alchemical preparations, etc. A few things to

I have to disagree with you on this one. Telekinesis blows. I get to
spend a
power point and 50-500 sp to do the same or less damage as every other
member of the group. And the second it becomes obvious that I am a
sorcerer,
my AC 10 ass becomes the target on the battlefield. What sorcerer in
the
game could survive risking touch attacks when everyone has a ~50%
chance of
making a save?

> in the game is easier than may appear, (3) the game
> expects extensive use of knowledge skills to support
> the party (e.g., knowledge architecture to note that
> striking that crumbling pillar will drop it onto the
> mummy, knowledge arcana to note that the risen dead
> are more or less vulnerable to certain attacks,
> knowledge history to note that Acheronian wizards did
> a lot of necromantic magic and having a lot of fire to
> attack with could be useful, knowledge arcana to note
> that interrupting the sorceror's ritual at this point
> would be "a bad thing" and lead to runaway magic, etc.
> etc.). Instead of in DnD where you can simply cast a
> spell to solve a situation, Conan requires a bit more
> thought and ingenuity.

 

[Sutek]

Scholars don't spend most of thier time in combat. They're scholars. (lol) And, like you told him, there's some spells (Gellid Bones comes to mind) that are essentially low level spells, but are extremely deadly. If he believe that Telekenesis "blows", then he's not clever enough to use that spell well. Tossing deadly poisons into combat, or into rooms prior to combat as a surprise action for that matter, can be nasty. Have him and the party encounter a Sorcerer who doses the group in oil to then telekenetically lob lit torches at them - then see what he thinks "blows".

If his argument is that he wants to be a scholar without spells, that's totally doable and even playable. Those guys are braniacs and walking libraries.

If he's wanting to create a scholar but is trying to get you to let him cast Fireball and Magic Missile from the D&D books, then there's no analog and it would take you more time to convert him a whole new system to use, not to mention being anti-Conan.

On the other hand, take a look at Raven's Sorcerer rules in the forums here. She wrote a huge, brand new system, complete with tons of spells, that would at least present an alternative. I prefer the actual Conan system over Raven's, but her thing is at least very well written and very complete. :wink:

 

[quigs]

I have a Stygian scholar in my group who uses TK to launch arrows from his Stygian bow. He hangs way back and suffers no range penalties within 120 feet. Furthermore, he can throw 6 per round if he spends the Power Points. Then, once he finds a foe who's bleeding out, he uses Ritual Sacrifice, kills him with a coupe de grace, and gets back some of those PP.

Otherwise, he just uses his Demonic Pact and summons his Black Fiend to kill the troublesome NPC or creature.

He's pretty insane, and the party is very creeped out by him, but they see his usefulness. Plus, he's the ONLY one in the party who can make any kind of difficult Knowledge checks.

Sutek said it best. Scholars are not Wizards, and should not be compared as such. They require a very large amount of research to play effectively, and a lot more thinking than most other combat oriented spellcasters.

 

[argo]

Sorcorers are incredibly usefull... right up until you roll initative. After that they take something of a back seat. Yes, high level sorcerers can be a terror in combat, at least for a few rounds at a time. Yes, if properly twinked out a low level sorcorer can be a threat to. However, as a general rule sorcerers are weak combatants. This is not a bug, this is a feature. The class is named "Scholar" after all. :wink:

However, that still doesn't mean scholars aren't a powerfull class. Aside from their spellcasting they have a ton of great skills: the know everything about everything, are terrific in social encounters, have a nice assortment of "thief-lite" skills and they can use their Int bonus to round out their skill set in a number of ways. They also make a great medic.

And your friend shouldnt' be so down on the alchemical items either. Sorcorers of the Hyborian age are all about the exotic potions and nasty poisons. Remember, the craft skills are part of the scholar skill list as well. (though as one GM to another I stongly suggest that you handwave the rediclous time requrements of the craft skill, it makes the class less fun to play and is not in the fast-paced spirit of REH. I suggest that if your player can scrounge up the 1/2 materials cost and can hit the craft DC that you let him make as many items as you feel comftorable letting him have, and you may even want to give in a bit on the materials cost as well.)

Lastly you should try throwing a few sorcorer opponents at the group. Scholars make excellent anti-sorcorer lockdown specalists, what with the Rule of the Sorcorers Soul and the War of the Souls. Matter of fact a PC scholar can save the party all sorts of grief by properly identifying troublsome magic and figguring out the best way to avoid/bypass it. Again, the class shines in the party-support role.

And if none of this works, then remind him that everybody sucks at first level. Tell him to come back and complain sometime around level 6.

Later.

 

[Conan-the-Librarian]

Well while I know that the 2 Conan movies are FAR from "canon" for REH's Conan... they could prove excellent examples of just how a Scholar/Sorceror can be quite useful to a party of adventurers.

In Barbarian, it is Akiro who "heals" Conan from near-death.

In Destoryer, Akiro is actually a much more active member of the group whose knowledge (including "Deciphering Script" when reading about the Dagoth prophesy on the temple walls?) as well as various spells aid the heroes during various parts of the quest.

To be sure, Akiro is NOT a "badass" combatant but he certainly serves his purpose and fullfills his role within the group.

In fact if I remember correctly, in Destoryer Conan specifically seeks Akiro out to "fight magic with magic". In fact isn't it Akiro who figures out that Conan has to pull out the horn in order to kill Dagoth (which was a good thing since Dagoth seemed to be able ot shrug off lethal blows and was apparently stronger than Conan).


Now again... I will state that neither movie is truly canon (and I know the 2nd one was even less so than the 1st). Still I think they do give some possible insight into how non-killer scholars can prove their worth to an adventuring group.

 

[slaughterj]

Remember, the craft skills are part of the scholar skill list as well. (though as one GM to another I stongly suggest that you handwave the rediclous time requrements of the craft skill, it makes the class less fun to play and is not in the fast-paced spirit of REH. I suggest that if your player can scrounge up the 1/2 materials cost and can hit the craft DC that you let him make as many items as you feel comftorable letting him have, and you may even want to give in a bit on the materials cost as well.)

Actually I go further than that. My adventures are about the adventure, not crafting stuff, buying stuff, accounting for loot, etc. What I do is when the adventure starts, tell the PCs what they have (nothing, just a weapon, their standard equipment list, or greater amount of supplies), and that includes scholars - I will set up some craft checks for the scholar to roll to see how many of a particular item they might have (i.e., made before the adventure starts, figuring the scholar was making stuff while the rest were blowing their cash).

 

[Yogah of Yag]

I am fond of multiclassing with Scholar. I wrote up an Occultist multiclass character, who is essentially a Lara Croft-like Tomb Raider (Thief/Scholar). :shock: 8) In my campaign, however, most straight-Scholars (no multiclassing) are the bad-guys with the "black cowboy hats." :lol:

 

[samagee]

Obviously your scholar has not learned to throw with greater telekensis yet. I would suggest he learn to throw them 120 feet straight up into the air. There is nothing better then launching a few npcs, who are in your way, straight up while you continue to walk on.

 

[Leviticus]

Getting thrown by G.T, ever since it was so wonderfully introduced into the game by samagee, we had it put back at us by our games master and sent me flying naked 120 feet northward.

by the way its d6 damage per 10 foot range increment

*OUCH*

 

[quigs]

Obviously your scholar has not learned to throw with greater telekensis yet. I would suggest he learn to throw them 120 feet straight up into the air. There is nothing better then launching a few npcs, who are in your way, straight up while you continue to walk on.

Obviously you haven't read the spell carefully enough You can't cast any of the TK spells on creatures or characters. They only affect objects, and generally, only objects that don't weigh very much.

Although if you are casting it on things like armour being worn by someone, that technically could work, but then I'd probably allow a saving throw to avoid the effect.

 

[samagee]

Obviously your scholar has not learned to throw with greater telekensis yet. I would suggest he learn to throw them 120 feet straight up into the air. There is nothing better then launching a few npcs, who are in your way, straight up while you continue to walk on.

Obviously you haven't read the spell carefully enough You can't cast any of the TK spells on creatures or characters. They only affect objects, and generally, only objects that don't weigh very much.

Although if you are casting it on things like armour being worn by someone, that technically could work, but then I'd probably allow a saving throw to avoid the effect.

Well I see what you mean, however I do not see a weight restriction. It looks to me like I can still hurl flaming tree trunks into charging froathing at the mouth barbarians. Or maybe tie some exploding alchemist potions to a tree trunk and hurl it into them.