gamesmeister
Banded Mongoose
Lord High Munchkin said:
Thanks for this LHM, very interesting stuff.
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Demonology
- Thread starter soltakss
- Start date
Thanks for this LHM, very interesting stuff.
sidkfjjteidlkkf
Mongoose
I think all the aspects of demonology help to put together a fantasy aspect of it. It helps to determine what is and what is not.
Both Simon and LHM have done an excellent job at this.
Let's just see how the rules in the GM GUIDE compare, as I may just use Simons.
I am in the process of making a few "Physical Demons" now. I will share them when they are done.
Both Simon and LHM have done an excellent job at this.
Let's just see how the rules in the GM GUIDE compare, as I may just use Simons.
I am in the process of making a few "Physical Demons" now. I will share them when they are done.
For the purposes of the game, it's probably best to have a blend of fact and fiction, so we could include all the gory bits from historical novels, films, TV series and folklore.
Of course, this is for a Medieval Earth settign and doesn't apply to others.
The Crusades and the time following them was a very interesting period. That's when the Renaissance really started. People travelled to the Holy Lands and met with people from a different culture. They picked up new ideas, new religious principles and could study new subjects.
Alchemists picked up a lot from the Islamic and Jewish world through interactions in the Holy Land as well as in Spain and southern Europe. Demonologists could study Jewish and Islamic works and found out about their beliefs. Different sects interacted and exchanged beliefs and ideas. There were a lot of heretics around in that period.
Sure, many people were illiterate, but some weren't. They had access to libraries and those with a bent for Demonology or Alchemy tended to build up libraries of rare books. People weren't well-travelled, but some went to the Holy Land or toured Europe.
As for Angels, some were venerated, as has been stated, especially the Archangels. But many were lower-order angels and could be summoned. Gabriel dictated the Koran, other angels were credited with teaching makind in the past. Why should they be different now? The same methods of controlling demons also work with Angels. I can see powerful demonologists summoning both.
Some Churchmen were literate, some were not. Many of the scholars of the day were also Churchmen, but not all. Don't forget that a lot of the studies were done in the Islamic world and built on Classical, Judaic and other workd, which they had kept safe after the collapse of the Roman Empire. In the Arabian Nights stories, there were many Jewish and Islamic sorcerers, Islamic sorcerers had control over Djinni following Solomon's teachings, or found Solomon's Jars containing demons. So, there wer many non-Christian traditions of esoteric knowledge, demonology not the least.
Of course, this is for a Medieval Earth settign and doesn't apply to others.
The Crusades and the time following them was a very interesting period. That's when the Renaissance really started. People travelled to the Holy Lands and met with people from a different culture. They picked up new ideas, new religious principles and could study new subjects.
Alchemists picked up a lot from the Islamic and Jewish world through interactions in the Holy Land as well as in Spain and southern Europe. Demonologists could study Jewish and Islamic works and found out about their beliefs. Different sects interacted and exchanged beliefs and ideas. There were a lot of heretics around in that period.
Sure, many people were illiterate, but some weren't. They had access to libraries and those with a bent for Demonology or Alchemy tended to build up libraries of rare books. People weren't well-travelled, but some went to the Holy Land or toured Europe.
As for Angels, some were venerated, as has been stated, especially the Archangels. But many were lower-order angels and could be summoned. Gabriel dictated the Koran, other angels were credited with teaching makind in the past. Why should they be different now? The same methods of controlling demons also work with Angels. I can see powerful demonologists summoning both.
Some Churchmen were literate, some were not. Many of the scholars of the day were also Churchmen, but not all. Don't forget that a lot of the studies were done in the Islamic world and built on Classical, Judaic and other workd, which they had kept safe after the collapse of the Roman Empire. In the Arabian Nights stories, there were many Jewish and Islamic sorcerers, Islamic sorcerers had control over Djinni following Solomon's teachings, or found Solomon's Jars containing demons. So, there wer many non-Christian traditions of esoteric knowledge, demonology not the least.
Magistus said:So did you ever get the update done for the MRQ Wiki site?
Yes.
I am working on a version of Demonology for Stupor Mundi and have downloaded a list of medieval demons with descriptions and sample abilities.
However, I have run into a problem.
Some demons, well a lot of them actually, have very vague and general powers. These are difficult to turn into a RQ equivalent. Others have powers that absolutley do not rquate to a Rune/Divine/Sorcery spell in RQ.
For example, Eligos "Causes the Love of Lords and Great People". You could interpret this as a spell that causes two people to fall in love, but I think that's a very inelegant way of doing it.
What I'd rather do is have the Demonologist contact Eligos and ask him to cause two enemies to fall in love. The demon would then rush off, whisper sweet nothings into the ears of the two enemies and make them fall in love with each other. No spell, no ranged efect or duration, just something the demon makes happen.
But, how to do this in RQ?
The best I can come up with at the moment is a Demonology Spell Request Demonic Boon.
Request Demonic boon (Demon):
This allows a Demonologist to ask for aid from a demon with whom he has a Demonic Pact. The aid must be in an area with which the demon has power. The Demonologist must make a sacrifice, persuade or command the demon to carry out the task and provide enough blood/jewels/offerings to satisfy the demon.
But, it's a bit vague.
Has anyone any ideas about how to beef it up a bit or how to approach the problem?
I don't really want to have loads of specific spells for each demon allowing a Demonologist to carry out tasks that the demon is skilled at.
However, I have run into a problem.
Some demons, well a lot of them actually, have very vague and general powers. These are difficult to turn into a RQ equivalent. Others have powers that absolutley do not rquate to a Rune/Divine/Sorcery spell in RQ.
For example, Eligos "Causes the Love of Lords and Great People". You could interpret this as a spell that causes two people to fall in love, but I think that's a very inelegant way of doing it.
What I'd rather do is have the Demonologist contact Eligos and ask him to cause two enemies to fall in love. The demon would then rush off, whisper sweet nothings into the ears of the two enemies and make them fall in love with each other. No spell, no ranged efect or duration, just something the demon makes happen.
But, how to do this in RQ?
The best I can come up with at the moment is a Demonology Spell Request Demonic Boon.
Request Demonic boon (Demon):
This allows a Demonologist to ask for aid from a demon with whom he has a Demonic Pact. The aid must be in an area with which the demon has power. The Demonologist must make a sacrifice, persuade or command the demon to carry out the task and provide enough blood/jewels/offerings to satisfy the demon.
But, it's a bit vague.
Has anyone any ideas about how to beef it up a bit or how to approach the problem?
I don't really want to have loads of specific spells for each demon allowing a Demonologist to carry out tasks that the demon is skilled at.
Perhaps something along the lines of Demonic Impulses (for lack of a better term) - drives similiar to Pendragon Passions.
Give them a percentile rating that characters need to oppose with ther persistence for example (or perhaps a Piousness rating is in order?).
So a compulsion "Love of Lords and Great People 150%" would need to be opposed by a persistence roll.
I use 150% because I expect most of these to be very strong impulses or compulsions that only great heroes have a decent chance to resist. Minor demons would have lesser ratings but any big ones should be tough to resist.
Just a thought.
Give them a percentile rating that characters need to oppose with ther persistence for example (or perhaps a Piousness rating is in order?).
So a compulsion "Love of Lords and Great People 150%" would need to be opposed by a persistence roll.
I use 150% because I expect most of these to be very strong impulses or compulsions that only great heroes have a decent chance to resist. Minor demons would have lesser ratings but any big ones should be tough to resist.
Just a thought.
Yes, I'd have given each demon a rating according to his area of expertise and used that to determine his success with any action.
Most actions will succeed, after all these are powwerful demons and powerful demons normally succeed in what they want to do.
But, my problem is in how a Demonologist can do something via a demon without necessarily using a standard RQ spell.
So, Vinea "Causes Storms at Sea". Karim is a Demonologist with a Minor Demonic Pact with Vinea. Karim wants to delay a merchant ship carrying an important message, so he calls on Vinea to cause a storm and drive the ship off course. In standard RQ terms, he would have a spell Cause Storm, if this is a Divine Spell then he would have to be on the sea near the ship to cast it, which is no use at all, if a sorcery spell he could give it a Range but the range would be prohibitive unless close by, so this is useless as well. What he should be able to do is to call on Vinea to pop over to where the ship is and call up a storm to block it.
Similarly, Malphas "Destroys Enemies' Buildings" and Barbatos "Reveals the Hidden Treasures of Magicians". Normal RQ spells mean that the Femonologist would have to be there at the time to do these things, rather than doing them from afar, as I would expect a Demonologist to be able to do.
After all, they are Demonologists, not just Sorcerers.
Most actions will succeed, after all these are powwerful demons and powerful demons normally succeed in what they want to do.
But, my problem is in how a Demonologist can do something via a demon without necessarily using a standard RQ spell.
So, Vinea "Causes Storms at Sea". Karim is a Demonologist with a Minor Demonic Pact with Vinea. Karim wants to delay a merchant ship carrying an important message, so he calls on Vinea to cause a storm and drive the ship off course. In standard RQ terms, he would have a spell Cause Storm, if this is a Divine Spell then he would have to be on the sea near the ship to cast it, which is no use at all, if a sorcery spell he could give it a Range but the range would be prohibitive unless close by, so this is useless as well. What he should be able to do is to call on Vinea to pop over to where the ship is and call up a storm to block it.
Similarly, Malphas "Destroys Enemies' Buildings" and Barbatos "Reveals the Hidden Treasures of Magicians". Normal RQ spells mean that the Femonologist would have to be there at the time to do these things, rather than doing them from afar, as I would expect a Demonologist to be able to do.
After all, they are Demonologists, not just Sorcerers.
How about a POW vs. POW roll to coerce the demon into doing what you want. Perhaps a Control demon spell.
You could even have stuff that boosts the mage's POW for "convincing the demon". Like a approrapte sacrifce gives a bonus (POW of sacrfice or other apporpriate characterstic)
OR a Persaude roll, with +5% per POW expended?
You could even have stuff that boosts the mage's POW for "convincing the demon". Like a approrapte sacrifce gives a bonus (POW of sacrfice or other apporpriate characterstic)
OR a Persaude roll, with +5% per POW expended?
soltakss said:So, Vinea "Causes Storms at Sea". Karim is a Demonologist with a Minor Demonic Pact with Vinea. Karim wants to delay a merchant ship carrying an important message, so he calls on Vinea to cause a storm and drive the ship off course. In standard RQ terms, he would have a spell Cause Storm, if this is a Divine Spell then he would have to be on the sea near the ship to cast it, which is no use at all, if a sorcery spell he could give it a Range but the range would be prohibitive unless close by, so this is useless as well. What he should be able to do is to call on Vinea to pop over to where the ship is and call up a storm to block it.
Ahh, I see. I'd misunderstood what you were looking for in my last post.
Personally, I would think Demonology would be most akin to Divine Magic if you really want equate Demonic Powers to game spells (as opposed to a GM wing it approach). I would also think the demon, not the demonologist, is who is casting the spell (though the Demonologist may be the vessel through which the Demon manifests its' power in most cases, so it would appear the Demonologist is the caster).
Two thoughts. One is that the cost of getting Vinea to actually go bother the merchant ship halfway across the world is higher than just allowing Karim to channel Vinea's ability through himself - say twice the cost of the magnitude of the spell effect.
The other would be that some material component of the target would have to be in Karim's possession, such as a piece of the ship, or a lock of hair of the captain, or somesuch. Though this may have too much of a voodoo flavor.
Anthro class was a long time ago. I believe what you are discribing is call sympathetic magic. It is not limited to voodoo histricaly, many diferent peoples used the same idea. Perhaps with Pirates of the caribean so big right now voodoo is more in our thoughts.
Sympathetic, projective, and damned if I can remeber the third type. 30 years is a long time ago.
Sympathetic, projective, and damned if I can remeber the third type. 30 years is a long time ago.
Lord High Munchkin
Mongoose
Dear All,
It is always important to remember that in Medieval thought and surviving nigromantic texts, it was always the demon - not the sorcerer, that casts the actual spell (or causes the desired effect by its actions).
Regards
It is always important to remember that in Medieval thought and surviving nigromantic texts, it was always the demon - not the sorcerer, that casts the actual spell (or causes the desired effect by its actions).
Regards
duncan_disorderly
Mongoose
soltakss said:That's what I thought and am trying to grasp towards.
RQ has a tradition of getting spell.s etc from divine powers, so for a RQ game both should be available.
But, sending little Johnny-Demon off to sink Grandma's ships feels right to me.
Hmm, RQ Bound (or allied) spirits and HQ Fetishes both have the magic coming from the spirit rather than the character, so you either need to distinguish demonology from these, or consider them to be a type of demonology. (One Troll's friendly Dehori spirit is another Dara Happans Demon after all...)
Using, for a moment the HQ "Three Otherworld" model a demonologist is someone who summons godworld beings (HQ Daemons) into the inner world to carry out tasks for him in return for sacrifices (as opposed to a shaman who summons spirits through personal relationships, or a sorceror who summons essences according to ritual formulae). Daemons normally have a material form (unlike spirits)...
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