Darkness = Chaos?

[Voriof]

Again, depends on who is talking. Most of the semi-objective material about "Chaos" is from a God Learner, Orlanthi or Praxian perspective - both of which identify Chaos as a unique form of evil. Not all Gloranthan cultures categorize things that way. For instance, the Carmanians divide things between Idovanus (Truth) and Ganesatarus (Deceit). The Vithelans don't carve out a special category of anti-gods for Chaotic entities - chaotic entities are in the same category as are entities like Orlanth. And so on.

Jeff

True enough. The vast majority of the works are from those perspectives. However, I would point out that most of the 2nd Age material is definitely from the God Learner POV. MRQ would definfitely benefit from more Dara Happan/Carmanian/Eastern material but I suspect that the core of the God Learners and the EWF should be dealt with first.

Someday, perhaps, we'll see something dealing with Pamalt in proper depth. But we may have to forgo a reprint of Kyger Litor to do it...!

Jeff

 

[richaje]

True enough. The vast majority of the works are from those perspectives. However, I would point out that most of the 2nd Age material is definitely from the God Learner POV. MRQ would definfitely benefit from more Dara Happan/Carmanian/Eastern material but I suspect that the core of the God Learners and the EWF should be dealt with first.

I fully agree. I was referring to your categorical statements about what "Chaos" is - since those statements did not appear to be limited to the God Learner or Orlanthi POV. Dara Happans do not carve out a unique position for Chaos - from their theological view, Chaos is a form of rebellion against Yelm and therefore evil. But it is the same type of evil as Rebellus Terminus, Deshkorgus, and other evil gods.

Jeff

 

[richaje]

True enough. The vast majority of the works are from those perspectives. However, I would point out that most of the 2nd Age material is definitely from the God Learner POV. MRQ would definfitely benefit from more Dara Happan/Carmanian/Eastern material but I suspect that the core of the God Learners and the EWF should be dealt with first.

I fully agree. I was referring to your categorical statements about what "Chaos" is - since those statements did not appear to be limited to the God Learner or Orlanthi POV. Dara Happans do not carve out a unique position for Chaos - from their theological view, Chaos is a form of rebellion against Yelm and therefore evil. But it is the same type of evil as Rebellus Terminus, Deshkorgus, and other evil gods.

Jeff

BTW, I was using the word "categorical" not in the pejorative sense that it was an unqualified statement, but in its older use as a statement of classification. Jeff's comments about Chaos were not unqualified - they were very intelligent comments about how to classify Chaos (which I think the God Learners would largely agree with). I apologize for any misunderstanding my use of terms might have caused.

Jeff

 

[telsor]

No. Its actually called, "I don't know what's underyling Glorantha and we've never thought about what might be down there before."

Jeff

Thus it was (is?) guarded by trolls?
(I don't have this Work in Progress).

Nope. Its further down than that, as I recall. Past even the mythic hells of folks like Deshkorgos. Its quite literally the back of beyond. <cut>
Thanks!

Jeff

OK, this is an old, somewhat vague memory, but...I seem to recall reading somewhere that beyond the trolls in wonderhome were darkness 'demons' and some of them fought chaos, protecting the trolls from them and/or guarding against them. Zorak Zoran an example of this.

 

[Exubae]

Nope. Its further down than that, as I recall. Past even the mythic hells of folks like Deshkorgos. Its quite literally the back of beyond.

Vaguely remember there being a demon of despair who sat at the bottom most layer of Hell, at the doorway to 'chaos'.

(eque... or something like that) Can't remember its name of the top of my head... but it recounted tales of the pointlessness of existence and eventual doom of the world to those who came upon it... may have been in tales or Cults of Terror, I'll have a root round in my big bucket of Glorantha notes when I get home

 

[simonh]

I disagree in the way you explain Yelm considers his ennemy. Orlanthi are rebels, Chaos is annihilation and Darkness is the necessary opponent of light. Thus the way there are seen as foes differs because Yelm doesn't wish to control darkness and chaos which are non human civilizations.

That's right, I agree with you. Where do you think I disagree?

 

[simonh]

Isn't this caled Gregging?

No. Its actually called, "I don't know what's underyling Glorantha and we've never thought about what might be down there before."

Jeff

I first heard Greg explain what The Chaosium is (the point at which Chaos enters Glorantha) about 15 years ago, and the name of his first company kind of gives a cluse that this isn't a new idea.

ven in some of the early articles in Wyrm's Footrpints there are hints that some of the oldest half-remembered Ernaldan rituals are blessings on Chaos. The situation has never been as black-and-white as some people think it was back in RQ1/2.

Nick Brooke's site has a wonderful set of quotes and such to show that what manyn people think were later revisions of Glorantha were actualy there right from the start in White Bear & red Moon, and other very early products.

 

[soltakss]

To the Dara Happans, Darkness is indistinguishable from Chaos. Broos and trolls are equally bad. An Emperor who allied with Darkness is just plain evil.

Jeff

Hmm. This is not how it was explained to me. Darkness is bad but there are worse things. Afterall, there's a certain level of acceptablity of some darkness in Yelmic practice.

Jeff

I'm with Jeff on this

Talk about hedging your bets. Which Jeff?

 

[duncan_disorderly]

Nick Brooke's site has a wonderful set of quotes and such to show that what manyn people think were later revisions of Glorantha were actualy there right from the start in White Bear & red Moon, and other very early products.

Here for those not in the know...

 

[The King]

Perhaps I am being harsh but "Isn't this called Gregging" looked like a rather loaded statement and seemed some what condesending. Gregging is usually reserved for when Greg changes some already published part of the world or some long-established tradition - Yelmalio/Elmal being the classic case. However, some people use it to describe any change in Glorantha that they don't like - which is what I may have mistaken your statement for.

Sincerely,

Jeff

Though I have some knowledge of Glorantha I am no insider as such. My question was just that, a question. It seems moreover that in the community of insiders this expression was used many times as a form of humor, much as it is the case for the recurring cult of Kyger Litor which appears in the books.
I am not opposed to change be it in Glorantha or elsewhere and I don't see why I should be pleased when the creator of a fantasy world changes something or nothing in his creation.

 

[The King]

I disagree in the way you explain Yelm considers his ennemy. Orlanthi are rebels, Chaos is annihilation and Darkness is the necessary opponent of light. Thus the way there are seen as foes differs because Yelm doesn't wish to control darkness and chaos which are non human civilizations.

That's right, I agree with you. Where do you think I disagree?

Funny, I am proud I can recognize British humor when I see it but as it seems humor is reserved to some, I will politely take it as a demand for explanation.

I disagree with you on the way Yelm considers his several foes (that is Orlanthi, Trolls and Chaos) because trolls are natural ennemies of light, chaos must be eradicated because it can't be allied with and Orlanthi must be fighted so that they are brought under the (en)light(ment) of Yelm.

As the police act differently if they face a kamikaze terrorist, a thief or a teenager who just run away.

Of course in some countries it seems now that any suspect is considered with the same level of threat.