Darkness = Chaos?

[GianniVacca]

In the Heroquesting chapter of MoG, several troll deities are listed amongst the lesser Chaos gods. They are also mentioned as having led Chaos armies during the Darkness.
That sounds extremely non-Gloranthan to me... I've always thought of Uz as the staunchest opponents of Chaos on Glorantha (along with Uroxi, of course).

 

[Voriof]

In the Heroquesting chapter of MoG, several troll deities are listed amongst the lesser Chaos gods. They are also mentioned as having led Chaos armies during the Darkness.
That sounds extremely non-Gloranthan to me... I've always thought of Uz as the staunchest opponents of Chaos on Glorantha (along with Uroxi, of course).

As noted in several previous threads, this is an error. It is attributed to the texts in question being written by Justreli scholars who tend to think anything not human is automatically chaotic.

In essence, no, its wrong. Chaos does not equal darkness.

Jeff

 

[homerjsinnott]

In the Heroquesting chapter of MoG, several troll deities are listed amongst the lesser Chaos gods. They are also mentioned as having led Chaos armies during the Darkness.
That sounds extremely non-Gloranthan to me... I've always thought of Uz as the staunchest opponents of Chaos on Glorantha (along with Uroxi, of course).

As noted in several previous threads, this is an error. It is attributed to the texts in question being written by Justreli scholars who tend to think anything not human is automatically chaotic.

In essence, no, its wrong. Chaos does not equal darkness.

Jeff

You've been duped by the darkness! It leads only to Chaos and sorrow

Exterminate the Brutes!

Kill all trolls, then burn them all to purify their bodies (Or should that be the other way round?).

Don't listen to their stupid Orlanthi allies!

Support your local Yelm priest, Purity for all!

 

[richaje]

In the Heroquesting chapter of MoG, several troll deities are listed amongst the lesser Chaos gods. They are also mentioned as having led Chaos armies during the Darkness.
That sounds extremely non-Gloranthan to me... I've always thought of Uz as the staunchest opponents of Chaos on Glorantha (along with Uroxi, of course).

As noted in several previous threads, this is an error. It is attributed to the texts in question being written by Justreli scholars who tend to think anything not human is automatically chaotic.

In essence, no, its wrong. Chaos does not equal darkness.

Jeff

Depends on who is talking. To the Orlanthi, Darkness (although often dangerous and hostile) is an ancient foe of Chaos - indeed, the Orlanthi have allied with Darkness against Chaos on multiple occasions (the Unity Battle, the Unity Council, in the Gbaji Wars, against the EWF and recently against the Zistorites). Interestingly, the Orlanthi believe Zistor is a Chaos God (and they might be more right than is commonly known).

To the Dara Happans, Darkness is indistinguishable from Chaos. Broos and trolls are equally bad. An Emperor who allied with Darkness is just plain evil.

To the people of the Abiding Book, the trolls are demonic underworld creatures who undermine Creation and are therefore largely indistinguishable from other Chaos creatures. Add to that the fact that the Stygian Empire of Ralios - the great foe of the Seshnegi and to Rightness Malkionism - was allied to the trolls and worshiped many Darkness entities (as well as many other gods, saints, and spirits).

Jeff

 

[Voriof]

To the Dara Happans, Darkness is indistinguishable from Chaos. Broos and trolls are equally bad. An Emperor who allied with Darkness is just plain evil.

Jeff

Hmm. This is not how it was explained to me. Darkness is bad but there are worse things. Afterall, there's a certain level of acceptablity of some darkness in Yelmic practice.

Jeff

 

[richaje]

Hmm. This is not how it was explained to me. Darkness is bad but there are worse things. Afterall, there's a certain level of acceptablity of some darkness in Yelmic practice.
Jeff

Chaos (in the sense that the Orlanthi and Malkioni use the word) is not really a Yelmic concept. Read GRoY carefully - Shargash (and not Wakboth) is responsible for destroying the world. Kazkurtum the Empty Emperor is simply the embodiment of rule by monsters (and could be a troll as easily as a chaos monster). And the actions of Orlanth are responsible for the entire Surface World being deadly and infertile, groaning with each breath and wishing Life was anything other than what it was. Rebellion - not Chaos - is the source of evil for the Dara Happans.

Note: Some Gloranthan scholars mistakenly claim that the Orlanthi believe that Orlanth's use of Death is what brought Chaos into the world. This is not an Orlanthi belief - instead the Orlanthi believe the Gods War is a result of the Three Worlds (the Unholy Trio). There will be some cool myths about this in the Book of Heortling Deities that will be out later this year.

 

[simonh]

To the Dara Happans, Darkness is indistinguishable from Chaos. Broos and trolls are equally bad. An Emperor who allied with Darkness is just plain evil.

Jeff

Hmm. This is not how it was explained to me. Darkness is bad but there are worse things. Afterall, there's a certain level of acceptablity of some darkness in Yelmic practice.

Jeff

I'm with Jeff on this, The Dara Happans believe that darkness is evil and brings, evokes or abets chaos but I think their philosophers know that they are different things.

At a practical level most Dara Happans probably don't distinguish too much between diferent kinds of enemies - they all need to be fought and defeated - but that's true for most Gloranthans.

 

[The King]

At a practical level most Dara Happans probably don't distinguis to much between diferent kind sof enemies - they all need to be fought and defeated - but that's true for most Gloranthans.

This is not true. All humans were slaves and servants of Yelm while chaos comes from beyond.
Thus Yelm longs to regain his throne and "enslave" (even if the word isn't perfect, it is the true meaning for Orlanthi) and bring those who rebelled on the right track because Yelm brings enlightments.

It is probable that the cult of the sun deity believes too that chaos can only be defeated when everyone is back at its place and will disappear from itself.

As to Darkness, well Trolls aren't not ancestral ennemies of the sun deity because they lived where the light of Yelm could not touch them (that is in darkness). His descent in the underworld blinded the trolls and provoked their deployment on the surface where the light of Yelm had disappeared.
Again, the Reascent of Yelm should bring order again and once he has regained his throne, the trolls will be compelled to go live underground for ever.

Chaos is annihilation and destruction and I suspect that Yelm didn't even recognize the threat as it is because he focused on the rebels which are just bringing disorder in the world (which is a form of chaos but not the same source).

I love to confront the Order/Balance/Chaos rule of Moorcock with other settings and I would dare to say that Orlanthi are on the side of the balance. They fight chaos (because it destroys) and order, i.e. Yelm, because he enslaves and as such always maintain a kind of compromise which only the hero wars should bring to an end.

 

[simonh]

At a practical level most Dara Happans probably don't distinguis to much between diferent kind sof enemies - they all need to be fought and defeated - but that's true for most Gloranthans.

This is not true.

I don't see what you're disagreeing with, later in your post you seem to agree with every point I made (with some very good and well reasoned examples, e.g. that darkness isn't evil, so long as it stays in it's place).

I love to confront the Order/Balance/Chaos rule of Moorcock with other settings

I don't think Moorcock's ideas about chaos and law apply very well to Glorantha. They're very different.

 

[Exubae]

I don't think Moorcock's ideas about chaos and law apply very well to Glorantha. They're very different.

Agreed, Moorcock's view of Chaos is partly involved with creativity, change, and growth - Glorantha's Chaos is completely different it is nilistic and as a force is ever seeking to reduce Glorantha to the primal nothing, it is something to be avoided (though there are the lunars enlightened who would argue the point).

 

[Voriof]

I don't think Moorcock's ideas about chaos and law apply very well to Glorantha. They're very different.

Agreed, Moorcock's view of Chaos is partly involved with creativity, change, and growth - Glorantha's Chaos is completely different it is nilistic and as a force is ever seeking to reduce Glorantha to the primal nothing, it is something to be avoided (though there are the lunars enlightened who would argue the point).

Actually, according to Revealed Mythologies (I think), the Fount of Chaos is found in the deepest hells of Glorantha's underworld. This fountain has always existed and without it, Glorantha's Middle World would never change. Benificial Chaos as Change rather than Chaos as Outside. But on the whole, Chaos is bad news as it is simlpy an exposion of What Shoud Not Be.

Jeff

 

[The King]

Agreed, Moorcock's view of Chaos is partly involved with creativity, change, and growth - Glorantha's Chaos is completely different it is nilistic and as a force is ever seeking to reduce Glorantha to the primal nothing, it is something to be avoided (though there are the lunars enlightened who would argue the point).

Well it seems you didn't read the Stormbringer (ending) chapter until Elric blows in the horn of fate.

Chaos in Elric/Stormbringer (the saga) only appears to bring creativity, change, and growth, but it's more the lure of the devil. What do they really bring but destruction? Chaos gods use Melniboné as pawns. What did they do to help when the young kingdoms did rebel?
The same lack of creativity, change, and growth brought the end of Melniboné and its fall.

Moreover Stormbringer (the sword) is highly chaotic in essence and can even kill the gods (which it does in the end of the saga).

It's the eternal struggle between Law and Chaos that brings creativity and change because Law create and doesn't change while chaos brings change but it can't sustain anything.

 

[The King]

I don't see what you're disagreeing with, later in your post you seem to agree with every point I made (with some very good and well reasoned examples, e.g. that darkness isn't evil, so long as it stays in it's place).

I disagree in the way you explain Yelm considers his ennemy. Orlanthi are rebels, Chaos is annihilation and Darkness is the necessary opponent of light. Thus the way there are seen as foes differs because Yelm doesn't wish to control darkness and chaos which are non human civilizations.

I don't think Moorcock's ideas about chaos and law apply very well to Glorantha. They're very different.

Yes they do indeed. Chaos and Law is also a phylosophical concept and reading the GRoY it's easy to consider the perpetual non-change and rigidity of Yelm as Law (Yelm's law).

In the previous post (replying to Exubae) I explain further my view of chaos.

The chaos brought by the Orlanthi is figurative of course, the true word being disorder (in fact I would even say that in theory Orlanth bring some order but in practice it's a highly anachist civilization).

 

[The King]

Actually, according to Revealed Mythologies (I think), the Fount of Chaos is found in the deepest hells of Glorantha's underworld. This fountain has always existed and without it, Glorantha's Middle World would never change. Benificial Chaos as Change rather than Chaos as Outside. But on the whole, Chaos is bad news as it is simlpy an exposion of What Shoud Not Be.

Jeff

Isn't this caled Gregging?

 

[Voriof]

Actually, according to Revealed Mythologies (I think), the Fount of Chaos is found in the deepest hells of Glorantha's underworld. This fountain has always existed and without it, Glorantha's Middle World would never change. Benificial Chaos as Change rather than Chaos as Outside. But on the whole, Chaos is bad news as it is simlpy an exposion of What Shoud Not Be.

Jeff

Isn't this caled Gregging?

No. Its actually called, "I don't know what's underyling Glorantha and we've never thought about what might be down there before."

Jeff

 

[The King]

No. Its actually called, "I don't know what's underyling Glorantha and we've never thought about what might be down there before."

Jeff

Thus it was (is?) guarded by trolls?
(I don't have this Work in Progress).

 

[Voriof]

No. Its actually called, "I don't know what's underyling Glorantha and we've never thought about what might be down there before."

Jeff

Thus it was (is?) guarded by trolls?
(I don't have this Work in Progress).

Nope. Its further down than that, as I recall. Past even the mythic hells of folks like Deshkorgos. Its quite literally the back of beyond. Chaos, as can be seen from reading some of the earlier works such as Cults of Terror, is not aways bad. I admit I get a bit annoyed when folks decide any change to the world, especially in light of areas which have not been discussed before, is shrugged off as "Gregging." If you are going to use the term, please use it for actual cases such as Elmal/Yelmalio or the Goddess Switch or the like.

Thanks!

Jeff

 

[The King]

I admit I get a bit annoyed when folks decide any change to the world, especially in light of areas which have not been discussed before, is shrugged off as "Gregging." If you are going to use the term, please use it for actual cases such as Elmal/Yelmalio or the Goddess Switch or the like.

Thanks!

Jeff

Actually "folks" expressed it as a question not as an affirmation. Your bit of annoyment is somewhat overemphatic. Moreover you are not compelled to answer to so-called lower "folks" if you don't feel you should.

 

[richaje]

No. Its actually called, "I don't know what's underyling Glorantha and we've never thought about what might be down there before."

Jeff

Thus it was (is?) guarded by trolls?
(I don't have this Work in Progress).

Nope. Its further down than that, as I recall. Past even the mythic hells of folks like Deshkorgos. Its quite literally the back of beyond. Chaos, as can be seen from reading some of the earlier works such as Cults of Terror, is not aways bad.

Again, depends on who is talking. Most of the semi-objective material about "Chaos" is from a God Learner, Orlanthi or Praxian perspective - both of which identify Chaos as a unique form of evil. Not all Gloranthan cultures categorize things that way. For instance, the Carmanians divide things between Idovanus (Truth) and Ganesatarus (Deceit). The Vithelans don't carve out a special category of anti-gods for Chaotic entities - chaotic entities are in the same category as are entities like Orlanth. And so on.

Jeff

 

[Voriof]

I admit I get a bit annoyed when folks decide any change to the world, especially in light of areas which have not been discussed before, is shrugged off as "Gregging." If you are going to use the term, please use it for actual cases such as Elmal/Yelmalio or the Goddess Switch or the like.

Thanks!

Jeff

Actually "folks" expressed it as a question not as an affirmation. Your bit of annoyment is somewhat overemphatic. Moreover you are not compelled to answer to so-called lower "folks" if you don't feel you should.

Perhaps I am being harsh but "Isn't this called Gregging" looked like a rather loaded statement and seemed some what condesending. Gregging is usually reserved for when Greg changes some already published part of the world or some long-established tradition - Yelmalio/Elmal being the classic case. However, some people use it to describe any change in Glorantha that they don't like - which is what I may have mistaken your statement for.

Sincerely,

Jeff