D20 or own system?

[LucaCherstich]

People in this forum can tell what they like but the reality is that, if you change system, it is clear that your books in the old system will not sell as well as those in the new system (and I do not think this is what Mongoose want).
[snip] I only hope the main Conan line will remain d20 since, I believe, it is its only key for survival.

You cannot know how many people have been turned off by the game as-is. It might be that a new Conan game will sell better than the old one (just go the boards of other RPGs and you will see how many people are playing within the setting with different rule sets).
It's also an error to think that all players frequent the forums. You cannot extend what you see here on the boards to the whole (potential) market. If all of the d20 Conan players where the few that actively post here the game would have died a long time ago.

And you cannot extend what you see on other RPG boards to the totality of Conan d20 customers.
Plenty of people use the sourcebooks with the rules (d20) which are inside.
Many people (like me) have real life and not so much time and concerns to adapt a system which looks good to systems not conceived for Conan (and which maybe are not so well adaptable without weeks and years of playtesting).
I know that not everybody post his opinion on the internet but, I think, there should be a reason why Conan is the only MAJOR Mongoose line which remained d20 during the last few years.
And there should be also a reason why Conan d20 is among the few d20 mods which is still around and it is still so well diffused (at least in terms of books which I see in rpg shops and people which seem to like the game).
I do not think Conan d20 sells badly, otherwise Mongoose would not have planned all these books which they are now publishing every one or two months (look at the relative quickness of publishing Adventures, Warrior's Companion and, hopefully, Catacombs).
Even if we do not know the exact sale rates of Conan products these simple observations could suggest Conan success which, i think, definitively is one of the major Mongoose bestsellers.
Regarding me, I must confess that if it was not for Conan, there is not Mongoose product which I'm interested in.
If they stop producing Conan d20 I'll stop giving my money to Mongoose.
Losing just this customer (and other 4-5 people I know) is certainly no a huge loss....but I do not believe we are the only one liking Conan d20.
I suspect that real Sale statistics should show that there is a mojority of customers not writing in this forum and still loving Conan d20.

 

[zozotroll]

And that is really the question, how many old players pissed vs how many new players gained. Wizards lost me with 4e, but Mongoose gained me with MRQ.

I think MRQ is superior as a system to DnD3.5. But, it is not as popular. So while I would like to see a MRQ book, I dont want to see the current game go away. And I am not sure there is support for two lines, even if the license stretched that far.

On the other hand gamers are pretty weird, and I know lots of people with multiple versions of settings and games that differ very little, or completely.

 

[LucaCherstich]

And I am not sure there is support for two lines, even if the license stretched that far.

On the other hand gamers are pretty weird, and I know lots of people with multiple versions of settings and games that differ very little, or completely.

OK, but at last economy wins everything.
For each customer buying everything there are certainly six or seven silent, "normal-human being" customers which but just what they can (even if they would like to buy everything).

 

[tneva82]

Surely, like it has happened innumerable times since when rpgs where created. But if one likes d20, no one is going to storm the house of the fans and confiscate the books or preventing them from playing. Heck, I am still playing Mentzer D&D 20 years after it went out of print!

Maybe fans aren't pissed off because old books are taken away but because it would be death blow to future support and future players. Dead games attract new gamers not. Sure you might be able to play for a while but what happens when your current playing group splits? Good luck attracting new players to dead game.

I sincerely do not care much about d20, and it would certainly be nice if different versions of the game could exist at the same time so that different segments of people are happy.

That's fairy tale as has been proven before many times before. 2 versions of same game fully supported at the same time? Going to result in 2 dead games.

 

[rabindranath72]

And you cannot extend what you see on other RPG boards to the totality of Conan d20 customers.

For each customer buying everything there are certainly six or seven silent, "normal-human being" customers which but just what they can (even if they would like to buy everything).

In fact I was not implying any extension from other boards to d20 Conan customers at all (if for no other reason that I am a statistician, I know better than making this kind of stupid inferences).
Mine was just a counterargument to yours (it's either d20 or doom). The truth is, we cannot know without data from sales.

There may be six or seven, or more, or less. The point is simply recognising whether the market for a product is growing or not. I have noticed that the focus of the material Mongoose is producing for the Conan game has shifted dramatically from good fluff to crunch; the former is certainly harder to produce than the latter (hence it costs less).

But there is also people who does not buy splatbooks at all, regardless of income (I am one of these persons).

 

[rabindranath72]

Maybe fans aren't pissed off because old books are taken away but because it would be death blow to future support and future players. Dead games attract new gamers not. Sure you might be able to play for a while but what happens when your current playing group splits? Good luck attracting new players to dead game.

It has happened to game lines far more widespread and selling than d20 Conan (read: D&D). I do not see why it should not/would not happen in this case.

So, yeah, I guess we will have to wait and see.

 

[tneva82]

It has happened to game lines far more widespread and selling than d20 Conan (read: D&D). I do not see why it should not/would not happen in this case.

I don't see that much NEW AD&D players starting up these days. No wonder since buying those books isn't particulary easy. If you think otherwise show me store selling AD&D rules.

D&D 3.x hasn't been out of support yet but if companies like Mongoose abandons it soon it will be and then it will eventually suffer same fate. No new books sold, no new players starting it and soon game is left for few die hard fans playing with same group until the group splits up. Once that happens to all groups game is as good as dead.

 

[LucaCherstich]

In fact I was not implying any extension from other boards to d20 Conan

I just thought (from you previous post) that you meant that "since many people in other boards say they play Conan with different systems or adapt Conan d20 products to their own systems" this was a meaningful phoenomenon.
I think that the majority of people buying Conan d20 products do not adapt them to their own systems but use them as they are.

In any case, you are right, without clear accurate sales data we are just making hypotheses.

Nevertheless, even if it is not a mathematically clear argument, I feel that a definite change of system will ruin the Conan line.

But this is just me.

Future releases by Mongoose will demonstrate who is wrong and who is right.

 

[rabindranath72]

It has happened to game lines far more widespread and selling than d20 Conan (read: D&D). I do not see why it should not/would not happen in this case.

I don't see that much NEW AD&D players starting up these days. No wonder since buying those books isn't particulary easy. If you think otherwise show me store selling AD&D rules.

D&D 3.x hasn't been out of support yet but if companies like Mongoose abandons it soon it will be and then it will eventually suffer same fate. No new books sold, no new players starting it and soon game is left for few die hard fans playing with same group until the group splits up. Once that happens to all groups game is as good as dead.

Well, every version of D&D except 4e is dead. D&D as a d20 name is dead; sure, you have "clones" like Pathfinder, but if the brand is important (and it is since we are speaking of Conan), then d20 D&D is out of the game.
So, if it happened to the bestselling d20 D&D (and before it the bestselling AD&D 2e, and before it AD&D 1e) why would not it happen (or should not) to the definitely more modest d20 Conan line?
If we are not after the brand, well, there are already tons of games out there for Sword & Sorcery gaming.

 

[rabindranath72]

In fact I was not implying any extension from other boards to d20 Conan

I just thought (from you previous post) that you meant that "since many people in other boards say they play Conan with different systems or adapt Conan d20 products to their own systems" this was a meaningful phoenomenon.
I think that the majority of people buying Conan d20 products do not adapt them to their own systems but use them as they are.

In any case, you are right, without clear accurate sales data we are just making hypotheses.

Nevertheless, even if it is not a mathematically clear argument, I feel that a definite change of system will ruin the Conan line.

But this is just me.

Future releases by Mongoose will demonstrate who is wrong and who is right.

I have no idea how many people play in the Conan setting, but adapting this or that game to the setting is certainly not new (look at the 1984 AD&D adaptations). I have seen some decent adaptations for BRP and Savage Worlds, for example (and PegInc already has a Solomon Kane game)

I also have no idea whether a change in the line will ruin the Conan line. Sincerely one way or the other for me is the same; I never invest much in a game line, usually only the core book. I like to create stuff for myself, and I always see that the material I buy I can use also for other games. For the current line I have the core Atlantean Edition, Scrolls of Skelos and Ruins of Hyboria: hardly an investment! But I used the fluff for other games, so it hasn't been all lost (again, not sure whether lots of people buys the crunch for other game systems).

 

[tneva82]

Well, every version of D&D except 4e is dead. D&D as a d20 name is dead; sure, you have "clones" like Pathfinder, but if the brand is important (and it is since we are speaking of Conan), then d20 D&D is out of the game.
So, if it happened to the bestselling d20 D&D (and before it the bestselling AD&D 2e, and before it AD&D 1e) why would not it happen (or should not) to the definitely more modest d20 Conan line?
If we are not after the brand, well, there are already tons of games out there for Sword & Sorcery gaming.

But conan RPG isn't dead yet nor does it show sign of being in immediate death either. Why therefore risk killing it? There's old saying about not fixing something that ain't broken. For it to survive it can't afford to piss of current customers since Mongoose can't afford PR campaign required to draw in new customers. They can't afford to let current customers pissed off and if they force them to switch to new edition to keep up with support many WILL be pissed off.

 

[rabindranath72]

But conan RPG isn't dead yet nor does it show sign of being in immediate death either. Why therefore risk killing it? There's old saying about not fixing something that ain't broken.

Well, D&D 3.5 seemed to go quite strong...seemed. The "signs" of death are only known to the companies and their sales numbers. We can only speculate.
On the "don't fix if it ain't broken", I said so 10 years ago when D&D 3.0 was produced :wink:

Anyways, enjoy your books and use them! If it were for the market, we should buy always, regardless of our need and the quality of the products.
I know better, really. Actually, I am selling my small collection of games, and I am retaining only the games I play most; quite surprisingly, most of them are very old, unsupported games (Classic D&D, Mechwarrior 2e, AD&D 1e and 2e, D&D 3.0, Cyberpunk 2020)

 

[flatscan]

Well, every version of D&D except 4e is dead. D&D as a d20 name is dead; sure, you have "clones" like Pathfinder, but if the brand is important (and it is since we are speaking of Conan), then d20 D&D is out of the game.
So, if it happened to the bestselling d20 D&D (and before it the bestselling AD&D 2e, and before it AD&D 1e) why would not it happen (or should not) to the definitely more modest d20 Conan line?
If we are not after the brand, well, there are already tons of games out there for Sword & Sorcery gaming.

Yes, but it could be argued D&D evolved (or devolved depending on what side of the 4e debate you sit on) into what it is today. An attack roll is still a d20 + mods. They didn't make it into a completely different (read, it IS different but there are more similarities than there are between Conan d20 and MRQ) game like you're suggesting. People like me and my group with a long running campaign would lose support for our interest. And yes, I do implement rules from current books in this campaign. And, again, as Matt Sprange said in the 2008 State of Mongoose, Conan d20 is still selling WELL. Why mess with a working system? MRQ honestly isn't all that hot of a system. I don't know anybody that's playing it in Austin. Maybe that's different where you're from.

It really seems the only people who are pushing for an MRQ Conan are the handful on this board. I've read nothing anywhere on the Mongoose site that even suggests they would make Conan MRQ, so really we're just speculating idly.

 

[tneva82]

And, again, as Matt Sprange said in the 2008 State of Mongoose, Conan d20 is still selling WELL.

And they would unlikely be publishing new titles at the rate they are if they DIDN'T sell well. Rather resources spent on those would be spent on titles that sell well rather than Conan D20 if that didn't sell.

 

[rabindranath72]

The truth? I do not like MRQ particularly, either. But I like it more than d20, since it's closer to other systems I use for Conan (Stormbringer 5th edition, Call of Cthulhu 6th edition)
If Mongoose switched to MRQ, I do not think (and do not hope) they would do it to "mess" with the system, or change for change's sake. This is a thing which me or you would do based on our whim to play with something else.
Hopefully for them, Mongoose would base his decision on a sound business plan and on evidence of reduced sales/market appeal for the current line.
I guess we should be aware that what we see/perceive does not necessarily correspond to reality (in good or bad).

 

[rabindranath72]

And, again, as Matt Sprange said in the 2008 State of Mongoose, Conan d20 is still selling WELL.

And they would unlikely be publishing new titles at the rate they are if they DIDN'T sell well. Rather resources spent on those would be spent on titles that sell well rather than Conan D20 if that didn't sell.

Wizards of the Coast has produced and sold items up to the month before (and during the same month!) that they released 4e. And while they were releasing playtest material. Go figure.

 

[flatscan]

Well, the only evidence of popularity for comparison sake I can find is on the Amazon site. Runequest is currently Amazon.com Sales Rank: #783,858 in Books. Conan 2e is currently Amazon.com Sales Rank: #270,982 in Books. If we're talking business models then the sales mean something, and as is Conan 2e is selling far and away better than Runequest. I don't think switching it to MRQ would help. Like I said before, the 'goose would lose 5 loyal customers in one fell swoop to convert to a system that doesn't seem all that popular.

 

[tneva82]

Wizards of the Coast has produced and sold items up to the month before (and during the same month!) that they released 4e. And while they were releasing playtest material. Go figure.

And they have received lots of hatred and dissatisfied customers. They have sufficient PR power that they can cope with that. Mongoose is virtually limited to word of mouth. What WOTC can get away from would kill Mongoose.

 

[David St-Michel]

Question :

What does MRQ stand for?

 

[flatscan]

Question :

What does MRQ stand for?

Mongoose RuneQuest