d20 if very, very, very complex...or, is it???

[Supplement Four]

I HATE d20 games. I really do. I've avoided them like the black plague since 3rd edition came out.

I LOVE Conan. I really, really do. I love the stories. I love the pastiches. I love the Hyborian Age.

When I first picked up Mongoose's Conan, over a year ago, I was AMAZED. I was. If one HAD to use the d20 system, then the changes that Mongoose made to that system to fit the Hyborian Age were the things that I would have changed about the system if I were writing it. And, there were a few cool things they did that I wouldn't of thought.

One doesn't often find an RPG like that.



Why don't I like the d20 system? How is it too complex? Well, it's too rules heavy. It's too much to remember. It takes hours to create player characters (and NPCs too).



Or...is d20 really that complex?

It's really not.

All d20 is: Take a d20. Roll it. Add modifiers. Compare to target number.

That's really it, whether you're attempting a skill throw or an attack throw. That's simple, isn't it? Throw a die, plus mods, for a target or higher?

Feats and Abilities? They're just modifiers.



If you think about the system like that, it's really not that complicated. In fact, it's down right simple.

What makes it complex is that there are SO MANY modifiers that could apply to the die throw, and those modifiers are usually case specific.

So, that's the real challenge with the d20 system--learning the modifiers. When, and when not, to use them.

Give yourself permission to screw up a bunch of times by allowing a modifier when you shouldn't or not including a modifier when you should...and the game, even for a newbie (like me) to the system, really isn't that scary anymore.



I dig Conan. I dig what Mongoose did with the d20 system to fit Conan. Do I wish a simpler, skill based, system were used for Conan? You bet. I'd like that better.

But, Conan is in d20...and it ain't that bad.

At least, from my perspective.

 

[Spectator]

You pretty much nailed it right on the head.
It is a fundamentally simple system that can be incredibly complex.
The modifiers are the landmines or the glitches in the matrix.

If you really want to blow your head open I dare you to "search" in this forum the amount of typewritten pages devoted to the "5' step and the opportunity attack."

I think the good thing about the system is its simplicity. More importantly is that it is incredibly easy to house rule a change and not have it disrupt a character's development.

 

[Axerules]

Another system/D20 thread? Wow. Let's hope it will not degenerate into a flamewar (for once).

(...)If you think about the system like that, it's really not that complicated. In fact, it's down right simple.

What makes it complex is that there are SO MANY modifiers that could apply to the die throw, and those modifiers are usually case specific.

So, that's the real challenge with the d20 system--learning the modifiers. When, and when not, to use them.

You're damn right, IMO. It is not complicated. It is fastidious. I would also point out another problem: preparation is too much time-consuming for the GM (once, I have tried to stat a high-level sorcerer, the big evil boss of a campaign... it took me hours).
BTW, I do agree with most of your points. Conan OGL is, along with Midnight, one of the best D20 games. No reliance on magic stuff, interesting tweaks to the rules...yeah, well done.
But if I still like to play D20 games, I know for sure that I won't GM again with this system. Savage Worlds rocks!

 

[Supplement Four]

I know what you mean.

I remember playing AD&D 2nd edition. I've got lots of experience with that game because it's the first rpg (AD&D) I learned. We played both AD&D and AD&D 2E for years.

Putting together a game back then was time consuming, but it helped that I was so familiar with the game.

Now...that was before 3rd edition came out. How long ago was that? I haven't touched a d20 game since...until Conan last year (and, we had to postpone our game for a year because of Hurricane Ike).

Everything I used to "know" about d20, I've forgotten--or, it's real misty...and, I played AD&D 1E and 2E. 3E is a little bit different.





I like making up my own adventures, but, damn, is it time consuming. These days, I default to a published adventure and then just tweak the hell out of it so that the plot makes sense (so many published adventures don't).

Even that takes some work, but, at least, published adventures include stats for the bad guys. Just that saves hours.

 

[treeplanter]

Yeah, it can be long to create high level character

but sometime you can really abreviate them. If it is just a badass sorcerer to throw to the PC, them you just really need to give him 3 or 4 annoying power, set is magic attack bonus and other combat stat, and it's done. Last game I ran i basicly improvised a 19th level sorcerer, and it worked well.

Most of time I create very complex NPC, but in the end i just use a fraction of their capacity.

I think in the end, some background, physical description, and agendas for your important NPC are more important. Because sometime you can spend hours to create a NPC war machine, but PC will never fight it. Or the opposite: A weak noble with almost no combat abilities but PC decide to attack him.

In the end, it doesn't really matter. A 10th level, any combatant will roughly have +13 to 15 to hit, will have around 20 defense and do somewhere between 1d10+3 and 1d10+ 1d8 + 7 damage (will vary depending on class and equipement).

In the end, wathever the situation, it's a d20 + X vs a target number. Like any freaking game.

 

[Sutek]

Dude, Sup4, I think I told you all of that months ago and you fought me tooth and nail.

Glad you came around. :wink:

 

[Supplement Four]

Dude, Sup4, I think I told you all of that months ago and you fought me tooth and nail.

Glad you came around. :wink:

I felt the same about it back then as I do now. My opinion hasn't changed.

 

[Jacek]

I HATE d20 games. I really do. I've avoided them like the black plague since 3rd edition came out.

I LOVE Conan. I really, really do. I love the stories. I love the pastiches. I love the Hyborian Age.

Looks like we've got much in common. I never really got into d20, however.

That's really it, whether you're attempting a skill throw or an attack throw. That's simple, isn't it? Throw a die, plus mods, for a target or higher?

Feats and Abilities? They're just modifiers.



If you think about the system like that, it's really not that complicated. In fact, it's down right simple.

What makes it complex is that there are SO MANY modifiers that could apply to the die throw, and those modifiers are usually case specific.

And that's why I took up Conan d20 only recently, having read it before just for the world info. Too many spooky terms for a man just skimming through a book to find it bearable.

 

[Padre]

I'm preparing to re-start my Conan campaign after a 1 year break and I find re-learning the rules difficult. The basic "roll d20 against a target number" rule is simple, but there are so many modifiers, exceptions and additional mechanics (grapple, feats, special abilities) that it's overwhelming. I don't have time for this and I don't need this level of detail. I've been playing more board games than RPGs lately, so I'm considering using Savage Worlds. It reminds me of the simple and elegant boardgame rules - with props (cards, tokens, etc.) used to take some work off the GM.

 

[Clovenhoof]

First off: I don't find D20 to be _overly_ complex or complicated, especially not the Conan incarnation. Complex, yes, but I've seen much worse.
I've also seen much simpler systems, but these are often so simplistic that all characters of a given class turn out completely identical with no distinguishing features.

It's not so bad for players because they can pretty much write all the important stuff on their character sheets, adjust them every levelup, and just use these values when appropriate. D&D is more complicated and convoluted because those scores and modifiers change every other minute.

D20 is a lot more annoying for GMs, especially when preparing high-level magic users, even if they are prewritten. And here, too, it's not so bad in Conan because any Sorcerer will only have a handful of spells so you should be able to figure it out. In D&D I really hate it when they give me a Wizard statblock that just includes a list of his spells and not a word about how he's going to use them.

As a side note, it's also a question of whose responsibility it is to keep track of everything. In the games I used to GM, I took it upon myself to know all the characters and their abilities, because my players were new to D20 and many of them new to RPGs in general.
In our current game, everyone has played D&D before, and the GM leaves it to each player to know what their character can do. (Though again, I often advise my co-players how to act to the best of their character's abilities, because I also played Conan before and they didn't.)

 

[Padre]

Scholars... I just don't let my players use magic. At all. I keep sorcery NPC-only. For the re-start of my campaign I plan to just scrap the whole magic system altogether and give sorcerer NPCs spells (converted from Mongoose Conan or entirely made-up) as I find suitable. Hopefully it'll make magic more mysterious. Anyway, I'll let you know how it works once I get the group back together.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

Hi Everyone, Im new, (well, Im fairly old, but you know what I mean), and Im going to jump straight in with the Conan rules debate, (I was never a cautious man, cousin).

Ive read a lot of the threads concerning D20, vs something else (usually MRQ or BRP), on these boards. And Ive been pretty interested to see the divide. Like most, it seems, Im none too keen on D20, per se, but, again, I get the feeling Im in the majority when I say that I like what Conans OGL licence has done with the basics of the rules, in terms of using them to successfully describe a specific environment. Theres real colour in the interpretation, but, when you got a +1 for this, or a +2 for that, (but only when such and such happens), it seems fairly unplayable and complex, or at least, clunky. I havent played it yet, though I have most of the 2nd edition books. So this is just first impressions.

The basics of the rules arent complex, I'll agree with that, (the basics of even games like Rolemaster are fairly simple), but the execution, or extention of the OGL into complexity, is not my cup of cha'. Im a BRP man, (by extention, a MRQ hybrid, using bits from both). But, I realise, BRP lacks a certain amount of colour, especially in the spell department.

Thinking about this problem recently, I decided to tackle it from a different angle. I got out my copies of the Slaine D20 Moon Sow campaign, wondering how difficult it was to convert into RQ Slaine (or my homegrown BRP hybrid). Not really a problem at all, most of the characteristics have the same names, you can infer pretty well the Size characteristic for the description, and the spell names are the same. the big difference is hit points. Everyone is vulnerable in RQ. But thats a good thing, I think. It doesnt take long to roll up another character, and the ones that make it to mastery have acheived something special, but can still be felled by a lucky impaling arrow, which, again, I think, is pretty cool. So, Ive converted, and ran, (the first part, anyway), the Moon Sow campaign, with very little problem, maybe a bit of fudging now and again, but thats roleplaying. The witch in the first part of The Invulnerable King was remarkably easy to convert into my BRP/MRQ system, and the warriors were no trouble at all.

Which brings me back to Conan. A Hyborian character can be rolled up no problem with BRP, you have to make a barbarian template, but thats not difficult, you can either use the 'tribesman' template, or use RQ 3 or MRQ skill lists. Its the magic thats the major problem. But, its sorcery afterall, and there are sorcery rules in BRP, and Conan characters use the term Power Points, which could be a straight translation. The Evil Eye could just be a specialist sorcery skill. Gaining power points from sacrifice could be fairly straight swap, or saying that an animal will give you in the region of 1D8 points of possible power, a virgin is going to get you quite a lot more, in BRP terms, the excess power will disipate, unless there is a crystal or something to store the power in. The damage some spells do is dependent upon the victims level, which could translate as an amount per every 10 percentiles of the victims best skill or whatever. Fortitude, Will saves etc., can be a simple POW vs POW contest.

The Conan bestiary has some direct parallels in BRP/MRQ, sabre tooths, wolves ghouls, ghosts etc.. Demons are going to be a bit less powerful in BRP, but so is everyone else. The other monster statistics can be easily extrapolated, and their special abilities/attacks seem no more problematic.

Looking at scenarios, I dont think there would be much work neccessary to convert them to BRP at all. Id say, 20th level is the limit of the game, so that could be construed as being similar in status to a Rune Lord or something, having lots of skills over 100%. You can extend this by assuming 10th level is going to be a character with one or two skills over 100%.

So, not difficult. Anyone else tried the task of converting the rules to BRP or MRQ? Id be interested in hearing your thoughts. I suppose a MRQ version of Conan isnt going to happen, which is odd, considering all of the other fantasy rpgs are using MRQ as a base.

I dont want to derail this thread, but, as Im new, I didnt want to be all presumtious and start a new thread, knowing how much has gone before on the topic.

I think BRP would be great for Middle-earth as well! But thats another thread.

 

[Supplement Four]

I'm preparing to re-start my Conan campaign after a 1 year break and I find re-learning the rules difficult. The basic "roll d20 against a target number" rule is simple, but there are so many modifiers, exceptions and additional mechanics (grapple, feats, special abilities) that it's overwhelming.

Yeah, the game kind mind-screws you. It is overwhelming. It is for someone like myself who hasn't lived, breathed, and eaten d20 over many games in the past. I've still got to look up what the basic feats do. I don't have special ablities memorized.

OTOH, just remember what the game is: Roll a d20 plus mods for a target number. Keep that in mind, and you should be fine.



Let the players keep up with their own feats and abilities. Spread the work around. You'll want to read the feats the players pick, of course, but it will be up to them to use them in the game.

Start small and simple. That's what I'm doing. I'm searching for a published adventure that will include all the stats on the bad guys and NPCs. I'm looking at Danger in the Westermark from the Compendium. It's a very, very simple adventure--just a couple of encounters that I can master, as a GM, and ease the players into d20 combat. I figure we'll start with that, and then move into the Across Thunder River mini-campaign. The books of my focus will be: the comple of pages on the small adventure in the Companion, the 2E rule book, Across Thunder River, and the book on Aquilonia (and the Warrior's Companion if I end up getting it--which, I think I will).

Don't be afraid to limit player choices. I originally considered just handing the players a couple of characters that I designed. As the campaign progressed, and the players learned the game, I'd allow them to roll up their own characters. Instead, I've decided to let them roll up their own characters from the start, but I'm going to limit the class choice--probably only Borderer or Soldier. This makes the game easier to learn AND fits the story well (the PCs start out as caravan guards). Again, later on, as the game progresses, and the players and myself get more comfortable with the game, I will allow the players to create their own characters customized to their taste. At least in the beginning, though, magic will be reserved for the bad-guy NPCs. I'll delve into learning that later. Let's get the combat basics down first.

I don't have time for this and I don't need this level of detail. I've been playing more board games than RPGs lately, so I'm considering using Savage Worlds. It reminds me of the simple and elegant boardgame rules - with props (cards, tokens, etc.) used to take some work off the GM.

I like simple, too. I love Classic Traveller. I've considered using Wanderer, which is a fan created fantasy version of the CT rules (focusing on Conan, believe it or not).

But, when you use another rule set, even a simpler one, you're still creating work for yourself in the conversion.

In the middle of a game, when you need to look up something, you can't just look it up and apply it to the game. You've got to convert it, on the spot. I've found, in the past, that conversion sometimes needs some thought, and I hate running a circumstance one way, in the heat of a game, and then going back next session and saying, "Hey guys, we did it THAT way last time, but after some thought, we need to do it THIS way in the future."

With something like SAVAGE CONAN, you've got yet another set of rules to add to the process.

I guess it comes down to if your time converting the game saves you time playing the game in the long run.

For this reason, I've decided to stick with Conan pretty much as written.

 

[kintire]

Yeah, the game kind mind-screws you. It is overwhelming. It is for someone like myself who hasn't lived, breathed, and eaten d20 over many games in the past. I've still got to look up what the basic feats do. I don't have special ablities memorized.

I've said this before, and I will doubtless say it again. This is actually really easy. There are quite a few feats in Conan d20, but any one person will only care about maybe ten. And that's the GM. You do NOT need to stat out NPCs whose only function will be to die in round 2. Even major NPCs only really need attack, defense, damage, hit points and a few trademark feats. Yes, even sorcerers. Just pick the spells they will be inflicitng on the PCs... maybe four. Who cares if they also have half the divination spells? If the PCs won't be eating it by round 5, it doesn't matter.

 

[Padre]

I guess it comes down to if your time converting the game saves you time playing the game in the long run.

I expect the conversion to be quick and painless. We're not carrying anything over from the old campaign, I don't need rules for sorcery - pretty much all I need is to take generic Savage Worlds and cut out skills/items/backgrounds that are not suitable for S&S.

 

[warzen]

Feats and Abilities? They're just modifiers.

No, they are exceptions. This is were the complexity is hidden.

For those still strugling to produce NPC using the 3.5 rules, grab a DD4 Monster Manual and adapt the critters on the fly (reduce HP at least). You'll end up with an extra book but save a lot of time.

W.

 

[Supplement Four]

Is there a nifty-difty Conan rpg character generator out there? That lets the computer do all the work? Just hit "start", and, whammo, you've got a character at your finger tips?

 

[warzen]

Is there a nifty-difty Conan rpg character generator out there? That lets the computer do all the work? Just hit "start", and, whammo, you've got a character at your finger tips?

There's one here:
http://hyboria.xoth.net/resources/index.htm

I never tried it.

W.

 

[Supplement Four]

Is there a nifty-difty Conan rpg character generator out there? That lets the computer do all the work? Just hit "start", and, whammo, you've got a character at your finger tips?

There's one here:
http://hyboria.xoth.net/resources/index.htm

I never tried it.

W.

It's a spreadsheet, and I've had it for a while. Not quite what I'm asking for. (Thanks, though! :wink: )

Many other games have some code-wiz write up an app to quickly generate characters. There are a ton of them for Traveller. I've seen them for the D6 Star Wars game, etc.

Usually, they're customizable, so, if you want input on each stage of the design process, you have it. But, you can also just touch a button and have the computer do everything for you, spitting out a character, complete, with all stats.

I'd like to see something like that for Conan. Tell it what class and level you want (or stick it on "random"), and then see the results. It should pick feats and the whole ball of wax.

Anybody seen anything like that?

 

[treeplanter]

if it can interest somebody, I've google spreadsheets with over 50 NPC i can always share.

Some of them have description in french tough