CRB 1st ed./MBR Crew Requirements p. 113

[snrdg121408]

Hello all,

On 2/9/16 I received an email form Mongoose indicating that the Traveller Main Rulebook (MRB) PDF had been updated. The MRB is actually the CRB 1st ed. minus the front cover. For over-clarification I will be using CRB 1st ed./MRB in my post.

I am going over the CRB 1st ed./MRB Crew Requirements on p. 113 and have a couple of questions to help wrap my head around the rules.

1. In CT LLB 2 crew members can fill more than one position, IIRC the limit is two positions. CT LBB 5 2nd ed. 1980 indicates that Hulls <= 1,000 tons follow CT LBB Crew rules.

Does MgT allow one crew member to fill more than one position?
How many positions can one crew member fill?

2. Full crew column

Would a minimum of 1 body meet the plus backups requirement?

3. Navigator

Does anyone know where to find the Expert Astronavigation program listed as the minimum requirement for a ship's crew position of Navigator?

Does a Jump Control program fill in for the Expert Astronavigation program?

4. Engineer: The text below the Crew Requirements header and the Crew Position Table indicates that a 100-ton scout can be operated by a single crew member. Under the table's Minimum Requirement column is the entry One Engineer. In CT LBB 2 one engineer with a minimum skill of Engineer 1 is required on hulls >= 200-tons per 35 tons of drives and power plant.

Do MgT 100-ton hulls need a minimum of 1 engineer?

5. Stewards: In the CRB 1st ed./MBR spacecraft design rules on p. 110 is the option of Luxuries which states:

Each ton of luxuries counts as one level of the Steward skill for the purposes of carrying passengers, and therefore allows a ship to carry middle and high passage passengers without carrying a trained steward on board.

The Crew Table indicates that one steward is required per 2 high or five middle class passengers for average and full crew requirements.

Which is the correct requirement?

Note: I did a forum search and I got either no results or too many results to my search criteria and I apologize for a rehash of Crew Requirements at this late date.

 

[Garran]

#5: It's just poorly phrased. Each rank of steward among the crew that deals with passengers allows for two high class or five middle class passengers. This may involve one steward or several, as long as they have enough ranks between them to cover all of the passengers. Each ton of Luxuries on the ship counts as an extra steward rank, so if you have enough luxuries you may not need to assign any crew to the job. Even if you don't have that much, it still reduces the need for crew-stewards.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello Garran,

Thank you for the reply.

#5: It's just poorly phrased. Each rank of steward among the crew that deals with passengers allows for two high class or five middle class passengers. This may involve one steward or several, as long as they have enough ranks between them to cover all of the passengers. Each ton of Luxuries on the ship counts as an extra steward rank, so if you have enough luxuries you may not need to assign any crew to the job. Even if you don't have that much, it still reduces the need for crew-stewards.

I'm checking that I have this straight.

Under normal conditions a ship for every two high passengers being carried one crew member is required with the primary skill of Steward.
Under a different set of conditions the same ship carries five middle passengers and still requires one crew member with the primary skill of Steward to take care of them.

Using the Ship Design option of Luxuries counts as effectively one crew member with the primary skill of Steward.

If the ship carried two high passengers and five middle passengers and no luxuries would their need to be two crew members with the Steward Skill?

 

[AndrewW]

If the ship carried two high passengers and five middle passengers and no luxuries would their need to be two crew members with the Steward Skill?

Depends on level. One crew member with Steward-1 or two with Steward-0.

Or two tons of luxuries or one ton of luxuries + one crew member with Steward-0.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello AndrewW,

If the ship carried two high passengers and five middle passengers and no luxuries would their need to be two crew members with the Steward Skill?

Depends on level. One crew member with Steward-1 or two with Steward-0.

Or two tons of luxuries or one ton of luxuries + one crew member with Steward-0.

Here is the information I've gathered so far:

CRB 1st ed./MRB p. 110

Each ton of luxuries counts as one level of the Steward skill for the purposes of carrying passengers, and therefore allows a ship to carry middle and high passage passengers without carrying a trained steward on board.

CRB 1st ed./MRB p. 113

One steward skill per two high or five middle passengers (see page 142).

The following two items are on CRB 1st ed./MRB p. 142

High Passage: The passenger receives the best possible treatment. The passenger receives a stateroom and one ton of cargo space for baggage, and can expect high-quality entertainment. Each level of Steward skill (including level 0) allows the steward to effectively look after two high passage passengers on board a ship (so a character with Steward 2 could care for six passengers).

Middle Passage: Middle passage is generally sold on a stand-by basis (so middle passengers can be ‘bumped’ by high passengers who arrive later – a ship will only take middle passengers if it cannot fill its staterooms with high passage clients). Each level of the Steward skill (including level 0) allows the steward to care for five middle passengers. A baggage allowance of 100 kg is permitted.

From my minimal understanding of logical statements the rule on p. 113 means that a crew member with the Steward skill is assigned to take care of high passengers or middle passengers but not both at the time. Of course others, probably a large number, may interpret the verbiage to mean that a single steward can handle both high and middle passage at the same time.

The High Passage and Middle Passage rules indicates that the higher the crew member Steward Skill level the more high and middle passers than can care for.

Adding the luxuries option can eliminate the need for a crew member with Steward skill.

I like the MgT ratio better than CT LBB 2, but in my opinion CT LBB 2 steward requirements are easier to understand. I'll ponder on this a bit and try another, hopefully, clearly stated example concerning the Steward Crew requirement to make sure I have a good understanding of the rule.

 

[Condottiere]

Even with luxuries, if you have a High passenger, you need a steward; luxuries should just automate and simplify the job for him.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hi Condottiere,

Even with luxuries, if you have a High passenger, you need a steward; luxuries should just automate and simplify the job for him.

Here is the rule for luxuries from the CRB 1st ed./MBR PDF update from 2/9/16:

Luxuries
While the tonnage allocated to staterooms includes air refreshers, passageways, mess halls, crew lounges and other living space, it is often cramped and uncomfortable. Luxuries cost Cr. 100,000 per ton, and make life on board ship more pleasant. Each ton of luxuries counts as one level of the Steward skill for the purposes of carrying passengers, and therefore allows a ship to carry middle and high passage passengers without carrying a trained steward on board.

The rule as written seems to say that if the Luxuries options is selected you do not need to have a crew member trained as a steward. Of course HG 2nd ed. may have changed the rule, but all I have to work with is CRB 1st ed./MBR*.

*Note that MBR is for Main Rulebook which is how the last email I received notifying that the CRB 1st ed. PDF was updated.

 

[Condottiere]

A High passenger is going to expect a human or sophont to wait on him, what the luxuries does is to act as a labour saving device in this regard.

They are paying premium.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello again Condottiere,

A High passenger is going to expect a human or sophont to wait on him, what the luxuries does is to act as a labour saving device in this regard.

They are paying premium.

Thank you for the clarification that a high passenger is "expecting" a warm body to be waiting on the individual, which is different the number of stewards "required" with or without using the Luxuries option.

Had I realized you met that the high passenger expected a steward even though using the luxuries option does not require one I would not have replied. My apologies for missing the point.

 

[CosmicGamer]

1. Does MgT allow one crew member to fill more than one position?
How many positions can one crew member fill?

2. Full crew column
Would a minimum of 1 body meet the plus backups requirement?

Depends on your definition of "fill". From what I recall, there are rules somewhere for a crew member to perform the tasks of multiple positions. Obviously there is some common sense to be used during actual game play. One could be the only Gunner and the Engineer and the Medic on a small (obviously not fully crewed) ship during an eventless journey where they only man the guns "just in case", and their only medical duties are tending the low berth passengers. But what happens when you are in the middle of combat and need someone to man the guns, do engineering repairs and patch up injured crew all at the same time?

Having one pilot doing an 8 hour shift on the bridge and then doing an 8 hour shift as steward, another pilot doing an 8 hour shift on the bridge and then doing an 8 hour shift in engineering and so on is a no go for me in regards to meeting the requirements in the table. It can get the job done in a pinch, but it is precisely what make it a lower class of manning than when you have the appropriate number of bodies for each position.

In regards to the total # of backups, it is not detailed, but my thought is that "1 body" or person with no alternate primary skill should fit the bill. I believe that the concept here is that if someone is sick or otherwise can not work their shift, there is a backup who is not serving double duty and thus the ship can maintain full manning around the clock without anyone needing to work two shifts or trying to do two jobs at once.

Why engineering, medic and other positions do not need backups is something I don't understand.

3. Does anyone know where to find the Expert Astronavigation program listed as the minimum requirement for a ship's crew position of Navigator?

See page 92. An agent program running Expert Astronavigation could carry out the task.

Does a Jump Control program fill in for the Expert Astronavigation program?

I do not believe so. For me, the Astrogator (or agent program running Expert) uses the Jump Control/Astrogation software to input the detailed navigation information and the software interfaces with the ships systems to help control the ships drives in maintaining a course and setting proper jump drive parameters. Again, for me, this software does not perform any Astrogation functions, although it is likely consulted to determine and gather all the proper ship and drive specifics needed to properly perform the astrogation task.

4. Do MgT 100-ton hulls need a minimum of 1 engineer?

You can operate a ship without a dedicated engineer. The rules indicate one scout could pilot a small scout ship without needing a separate engineer. However for a small 100 ton ship to be considered minimally crewed, the engineer requirement is one.

The crew requirements are just a guideline for how ships are manned. Perhaps a strict star port might not let a ship depart unless it meets minimal crew requirements. "I see you have a steward, a medic, and a navigator. Sorry, I'm not letting you leave until you have a licensed pilot and engineer."

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello CosmicGamer,

The web gremlins have decided I can not use the quote option today to make a reply, which is why there aren't any. I'm also not having luck in copying and pasting either. Is today Monday? ;-)

I've been looking through both CRB 1st ed. and HG 1st ed. and can not locate the reference to a character being able to fill multiple position. CT LBB 2 1977/1981 limits the of two positions that a single crew member can fill.

I agree, which is also mentioned in the text on CRB 1st ed./MBR Crew Requirements, that crewing a ship with less than a full crew is not really a good ides, especially in the backwaters or the frontier.

My take is that a character has one Primary skill with the best rating any other skills are secondary which may or may not be related to the primary skill. Most of my pilot characters have the primary skill of Pilot and a secondary skill in astrogation or navigation.

I have an issue with the Expert Astronavigation program mentioned in the Crew Requirement table. There is no entry listed for the program in the software tables on pp. 92 and 113. To make my confusion a bit worse the Ship Software table's Intellect program at TL 11 has a rating of 10 and costs Cr1,000,000 while the Software Table on p. 92 TL 12 Intellect has a rating of 1 and costs Cr2,000, at TL 13 the rating is 2 with a cost of Cr50,000, and the TL 14 version has a rating of 3+ with no listed cost.
I have no clue on how to create any programs in MgT let alone an expert astronavigation program for a ship.

My suggestion of using a Jump Control program was grasping at straws since I have not been able to figure out the specification needed for an expert astronavigation program.

Yes, the text in the Crew Requirements inset does say a single person can operate a scout, however there is the bit that under-crewed ships have a much slower response time. In CT LBB 2 1977/1981 or LBB 5 HG 1980 and depending on how one rounds the results of one engineer per 100 or 35 tons of drives one can get away with no engineers on a 100 ton hull.

Yes, they are guidelines which makes trying to recreate a design difficult based on how the rule was manipulated. For example a ship carrying 150 passengers meets the average medic requirement of one per 120 passengers if there is one crew member with the skill of medic. In a discussion on crewing on another forum the consensus is that two medics are required otherwise the ship is under crewed. I've had a quibble of how the engineering crew is calculated in CT since there are three different components that need to be calculated for cost and tons. Of course my view is based on my time in the USN which had engineers trained in different components that made up the engine room.

Thank you for the reply.

 

[Condottiere]

There are several reasons to have an at least one person looking after passengers, it gives the passengers a go to person, and keeps them from disturbing other crew personnel. It also permits the crew to keep an (additional) eye on the passengers. In an emergency, the steward could also act as a gunner. Or medic.

Minimum crew requirements may be more conditional for operating within the jurisdiction of a specific system authority, to ensure they don't be accident crash into the highport, or anywhere else.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello Condottiere,

The web gremlins have stopped playing the games with me and the Quote feature is working again.

There are several reasons to have an at least one person looking after passengers, it gives the passengers a go to person, and keeps them from disturbing other crew personnel. It also permits the crew to keep an (additional) eye on the passengers. In an emergency, the steward could also act as a gunner. Or medic.

Minimum crew requirements may be more conditional for operating within the jurisdiction of a specific system authority, to ensure they don't be accident crash into the highport, or anywhere else.

There is again a difference between the "required" crew members and good reasons to have at least one crew member keeping an eye on the passengers. In David Drake's Republic of Cinnabar Navy (RCN) series officers, in theory, being from the elite families can get one retainer onboard as a servant and/or pays a crew member to take care of the gentleman or lady. Passengers on naval vessels can also pay a crew member to act as a servant. In both cases the crew member still has to stand watches. I'm not sure how things go on civilian vessels, since Daniel Leary, one of the main characters, has his own yacht, which is a corvette he captured in the first book titled With the Lightnings.

However, I agree that one or more of the crew will have multiple skills, I still have not found a cap on the maximum number, one of which might be Steward and/or Medic.

Many of my characters have a primary skill and at least one additional skill related to the primary. For example a pilot has the skill of astrogation/navigation. Another is the navigator/astrogator who is skilled as a sensor operator or a pilot.

I appreciate the reply and differing point of view.

 

[CosmicGamer]

I've been looking through both CRB 1st ed. and HG 1st ed. and can not locate the reference to a character being able to fill multiple position.

If i recall correctly - which I may not - it is a bit hidden, perhaps as a rule about trying to roll for tasks when attempting two different things during ship combats six minute round? Again, if I recall correctly, it certainly was not specific to the crew manning rules but reinforced that someone could "run from station to station" as per the crew requirements comment.

I have an issue with the Expert Astronavigation program mentioned in the Crew Requirement table. There is no entry listed for the program in the software tables on pp. 92

The rules do not list every possible expert program. It can be Expert programs in Advocate, Admin, Astrogation, Animal (Training), Art(writing), and so on - I've just covered the A's.

To make my confusion a bit worse the Ship Software table's Intellect program at TL 11 has a rating of 10 and costs Cr1,000,000 while the Software Table on p. 92 TL 12 Intellect has a rating of 1 and costs Cr2,000, at TL 13 the rating is 2 with a cost of Cr50,000, and the TL 14 version has a rating of 3+ with no listed cost.

Confusion is completely understandable. While it uses the same name, Intellect software for a ships computer on page 113 is totally different from the Intellect software for the everyday computer. From the description on page 113, it sounds more like the Intelligent Interface software on page 92. Why it costs so much and takes so much processing to add a voice interface to the ship is beyond me. Maybe it is meant to be an AI type interface? A possible interpretation/house ruling is that it is a full holographic display and interface that can use voice and gestures.

Regarding "the TL 14 version has a rating of 3+ with no listed cost.", I guess they are implying that rating 3, 4, 5 and up are all available at TL 14 and they didn't want to extend the list to include the costs for each rank. Time for the GM to just come up with something they feel is reasonable.

I have no clue on how to create any programs in MgT let alone an expert astronavigation program for a ship.

I believe it would be from page 92 but it can run on the ships computer.

You would need
+ Intellect program of at least Rating 1 - higher if you might want to use multiple Expert programs simultaneously.
Expert
+ Probably Astrogation Expert 3

As per the example of a robot doctor, this would give your computer astrogator a skill level of 2.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello CosmicGamer,

The web gremlins have definitely relented and are letting use the quote feature.

I've been looking through both CRB 1st ed. and HG 1st ed. and can not locate the reference to a character being able to fill multiple position.

If i recall correctly - which I may not - it is a bit hidden, perhaps as a rule about trying to roll for tasks when attempting two different things during ship combats six minute round? Again, if I recall correctly, it certainly was not specific to the crew manning rules but reinforced that someone could "run from station to station" as per the crew requirements comment.

The number of positions can be skilled in is still eluding my search efforts, even with your possible search area. I'm still digging though.

I have an issue with the Expert Astronavigation program mentioned in the Crew Requirement table. There is no entry listed for the program in the software tables on pp. 92

The rules do not list every possible expert program. It can be Expert programs in Advocate, Admin, Astrogation, Animal (Training), Art(writing), and so on - I've just covered the A's. [/quote]

The rule would be more helpful for me if they actually had an example of one Expert Skill name program in the software table and perhaps an example on how to build one that this old gray haired retired submarine sailor can follow.

To make my confusion a bit worse the Ship Software table's Intellect program at TL 11 has a rating of 10 and costs Cr1,000,000 while the Software Table on p. 92 TL 12 Intellect has a rating of 1 and costs Cr2,000, at TL 13 the rating is 2 with a cost of Cr50,000, and the TL 14 version has a rating of 3+ with no listed cost.

Confusion is completely understandable. While it uses the same name, Intellect software for a ships computer on page 113 is totally different from the Intellect software for the everyday computer. From the description on page 113, it sounds more like the Intelligent Interface software on page 92. Why it costs so much and takes so much processing to add a voice interface to the ship is beyond me. Maybe it is meant to be an AI type interface? A possible interpretation/house ruling is that it is a full holographic display and interface that can use voice and gestures. [/quote]

I agree, which I completed missed until now, that the Ship Software p. 113 Intellect program's Effect of "Allows a ship to understand and obey verbal commands" does appear to be related to the Computer Software Table p. 92 Intelligent Interface in light of the information in the Specialized Computer example p. 92 and the Crew Requirements/Navigator/Minimum/Expert Astronavigation program.

My guess at the high cost and processing power requirements is that the Ship Intellect program is being accessed by multiple users at the same time while the Intellect and/or Intelligent Interface programs on p. 92 are designed to run on laptop sized computers, which is used to interface with one user.

Regarding "the TL 14 version has a rating of 3+ with no listed cost.", I guess they are implying that rating 3, 4, 5 and up are all available at TL 14 and they didn't want to extend the list to include the costs for each rank. Time for the GM to just come up with something they feel is reasonable.

I would find having three cost points giving me a better idea of what would be a reasonable cost/price for TL 14 Intellect/3+.

I have no clue on how to create any programs in MgT let alone an expert astronavigation program for a ship.

I believe it would be from page 92 but it can run on the ships computer.

You would need
+ Intellect program of at least Rating 1 - higher if you might want to use multiple Expert programs simultaneously.
Expert
+ Probably Astrogation Expert 3

As per the example of a robot doctor, this would give your computer astrogator a skill level of 2.[/quote]

I think I followed the process and may be able to create a program MgT. My guess is that the program would be listed as Expert Astronavigation/2 TL 13 Cr102,000.

I'm going to ponder a bit and then see if I can create a program which I'll probably post in a new topic.

I think there is one hitch in the process that centers on tech level which means that TL 9 and 10 hulls can not meet the Crew Requirements/Navigator/Minimum of Astronavigation program. The Expert/1 program is available at TL 11, the Intellect/1 program p. 92 is TL 12, and the Ship Intellect program p. 113 is TL 11.

Thank you for the help.