Corsair Help Question

GypsyComet said:
That level of local coverage would come with a C+ starport, but not everyone has one of those.

Actually, it would come with a government who feels the need for protection and a population big enough to tax for the money to pay for it. And a population with that amount of wealth would be vulerable to raids by Bad People if it didn't have a planetary defense force. Starport class relates to trade, which may or may not contribute to wealth level. A world with no trade at all would still need to defend itself.


Hans
 
GypsyComet said:
Nice steady work for star mercs, when they can get it.

The other point is that the 'big' worlds in the subsector will likely own much of the commercial life of the small ones, and therefore have a definite interest in keeping them not raided by pirates.

If the Imperium wont let them do that, then thats what the Subsector Navy is for.

Anti-piracy patrols are a very viable role for fighters as well - a type S Detatched Duty scout as the sensor platform and half a dozen 10 dton fighters as the striking arms is protection even a small world can afford, and it ensures ships with civilian armour and armament arent mysteriously hanging around near the 100 diameter limit.
 
far-trader said:
Hans Rancke said:
I'd still like to know what it was designed for. The 3G maneuver drive is bigger and more expensive than a merchant would like, require a bigger and more expensive power plant than a J2 drive needs, and requires an extra percentage point in power plant fuel tankage...

Yeah, that's a puzzler. I'm not even sure it's enough to make a difference tactically in either running down a 1G merchant or outrunning the 4G patrol that comes after you. I thought I had it figured out once but can't recall how now. Maybe I just ignored it ;)

Maybe it was a wartime design originating in the Solomani Rim War or the like where high speed made a difference. This was a decade long conflict, which is enough to see a sub-1000 ton ship designed at the beginning come into service in large numbers near the end.

Perhaps the theory was not so much that you can outrun a 4-6G commerce raider, but rather that a convoy of merchant ships that can pull 3G will reduce the vulnerable period to 57% of the time (average reduction for 3G vs. 1G) and thus the convoy will have a better chance of avoiding any threat at all and delivering needed supplies.

In probability terms, if a convoy spends half the time (roughly) in transit through space, it probably has half the chance of being intercepted. If it has half the chance of being intercepted, then the navy can afford to assign fewer escorts (which cost a lot more than merchants).

Another possibility for the 3G merchant ship is that it's a dedicated supply ship built to support TL10-12 colonial navy operations - delivering spares, personnel, etc. between naval stations and different squadrons that are on the move. This might explain the lack of streamlining.
If built to support colonial navy forces it wouldn't need the huge size or high G of something designed to keep up with the Imperial Navy. 1-2G might be too slow, but 3G might be enough to enable it to keep up with other logistics and transport vessels supporting the fleet.

Either way - wartime fast merchant or fleet supply ship - after war hundreds of these things become surplus to requirements and were sold off cheap, and perhaps enough of a "base" then existed to keep making parts and few new ones each year after the war for border regions where similar conditions might still exist. And some of these post-war examples are popular with star mercs or pirates.

However, note that the standard corsair does have some stuff you wouldn't find on a merchant or transport, like military sensors. Presumably this is an after-the-fact add-on.
 
Hans Rancke said:
GypsyComet said:
That level of local coverage would come with a C+ starport, but not everyone has one of those.

Actually, it would come with a government who feels the need for protection and a population big enough to tax for the money to pay for it. And a population with that amount of wealth would be vulerable to raids by Bad People if it didn't have a planetary defense force. Starport class relates to trade, which may or may not contribute to wealth level. A world with no trade at all would still need to defend itself.

Hans

Still, a lot of worlds are going to feel that it's the Imperial Navy and colonial navy's job to protect their star system from any foreign threat. If the world is one that does not have extensive interplanetary trade (probably limited to starport C+, pop 8+, TL 9+ worlds, or asteroid belt-only systems) they can make that calculation.

The basic assumption is:

- Pirates are rare.
- If pirates show up we scream to the Imperial or sector navy.
- we endure a month or two of shipping losses
- the navy show up and the pirates are destroyed or flee to a different system
- the navy patrol for long enough that the pirates are gone

It's a cost/benefit calculation. The cost of trade losses for 1-3 months until the subsector
or imperial navy arrive is generally higher than the cost of

This is not to say the world would be defenseless. Most small worlds would have a tiny planetary navy - an armed ships boat or a few fighters or whatever as a coast guard. If it was a type E or D port with a large population and decent TL it could have sizable planetary defences and COAC forces, maybe even a orbital fortress. But I suspect the primary goal would be patrolling orbital space and protecting the world itself, and this force would rarely leave the 1-3 diameter zone.

For any TL12+ world that did not have interplanetary trade, but had a billion or two spend on defenses, but not more than that, I think the main priority is the existential threat: a significant raid or a wartime attack. To that end for the same cost as a squadron of 15 or so TL12 Dragon-class SDBs you can get a capital-ship grade meson guns and the few billion needed to bury it, or at TL 13 a battery of bay-type weapons. These are more than enough to defend the main world and everything in orbit - industry, high ports, etc. - out to a 50,000 km or so range against anything short of heavy cruisers or dreadnoughts.

I'd expect the SDB fleets for worlds with pop 8+, TL9+ and starport C or better. There are some exceptions - in border regions on the Solomani Rim or the Marches you want to patrol the outsystem to keep out intruders, and the Fifth Frontier Map has several examples of worlds without major starports having a sizable SDB force. But I'm not sure pirates would always operate on the more militarized frontiers - the Imperial navy are likely to be deployed there in strength. You might have better luck in quiet interior sectors relying on corrupt governments as havens or in border regions in lower threat zones.

I think the key to any pirate (as opposed to privateer) is mobility. Keep moving, cross subsector boundaries regularly to confound law enforcement, avoid targets that will draw too much Imperial attention (like kidnapping nobles or blasting starports), and don't raid for long in the same place.
 
Dlpulver,

Assuming you are the legitimate authorities and can make as much noise as you like, if you try really, really hard, you can make the space out to 100 Diameters vulnerable to pirates.

You need to

1. Not have any sensors in orbit that can detect ships to about 200 diameters

2. Not buy any ships boats with an Active Sensor to that can verify any detection made

3. Not put any Monitors - an armed buffered asteroid is Just Fine - at the edge of the usual jump point

4. Not have any missile platforms that can conduct long-rage fire.

5. Not ask any ship detected in system who it is and what it's business is

6. Not copy these answers down and send them along to the navy

7. Not politely ask the Navy if they can leave a ship - any ship - in orbit to shepherd traders to and from the jump point.

8. Not ask the Scout Service to cover for them if the Navy looks to be busy.

Theres also the problem that "If the world is one that does not have extensive interplanetary trade (probably limited to starport C+, pop 8+, TL 9+ worlds, or asteroid belt-only systems) they can make that calculation." its also not going to have enough trade to keep a pirate in business, as anyone trading there is going to be abnormally cautious (a good strategy for a frontier trader is to invest in a "ships boat" of about 20 dtons, and rent a TL13ish fighter and the pilot for it. Or hire an IISS Detatched Duty Type S to be your Armed Scout). This pushes freight prices up, of course, which a small investmen of going 'Halp. Please. We're poor. Mr Navy, can you lend us a ship ?' can solve.

On the other hand, if you're an illegal smuggler colony in the Outsystem, none of these arguments apply.
 
IanW said:
Dlpulver,

Assuming you are the legitimate authorities and can make as much noise as you like, if you try really, really hard, you can make the space out to 100 Diameters vulnerable to pirates.

There also the problem that "If the world is one that does not have extensive interplanetary trade (probably limited to starport C+, pop 8+, TL 9+ worlds, or asteroid belt-only systems) they can make that calculation." its also not going to have enough trade to keep a pirate in business

I agree the cost of protecting against piracy is relatively cheap and all of your reasons are logical. All comments below apply only to my own universe; piracy is an issue that one can never win an argument on, as it depends on so many other assumptions in and out of canon.

IMTU, not every government or bureaucrat is wise, and the longer that piracy is successfully suppressed, the more likely it is that even a minimal space defense budget will be cut to near-zero either to deal with an on-planet threat or some other governmental expense, or, more likely, left a hollow shell that exists more on paper then in reality. Same's true of the sector and imperial navy: even if patrol ships are only 1% of the budget, if a subsector hasn't seen pirates in 50 years, some pencil pusher is going to recommend the credits that supported that deployment be diverted elsewhere, or patrols cut back. There's always something else that needs money and resources, and any large organization has a thousand different people demanding it, some of them with power. It's sort of like the way minesweeping is ignored my some wet navies today - it's a key area, but it hasn't been a huge threat. (Or the way New Zealand have decided that fighter and strike aircraft aren't relevant to their situation; instead they've got a navy/air force that is good against pirates and the like...

IMTU, a lot of worlds in the Imperium are more likely to be in the reverse situation: the Imperium protects them, in theory, against external navy threats and they pay taxes to it for this reason. Instead their big focus is internal security: dissidents, rebels, etc. So all their limited miltary money goes to ground and COACC forces, or cops, or social welfare, or whatever. And while they're supposed to fund a minimal navy, often this atrophies because if no one's seen pirates for a long time, why worry about them? And then, once in a blue moon, some pirates do appear.. but the disruption they cause by taking a 200-ton merchant ship and moving on is actually a lot cheaper than the few MCR a year it takes to fund even a minimal space force.

Also, some of the ability to deal with pirates depends on assumptions. For instance, near as I can tell, in MGT there's no way to detect a target beyond about 25 planetary diameters: sensor range even with extended arrays seems to max out at about 300,000 km. (This was also the case in CT, though not in several other versions - the whole "no stealth in space" discussion seems to have originated with T4-era debates). This imposes issues both for the pirates themselves (finding targets, though perhaps mitigated if they home on transponders) and for planetary defenses. How missiles work and their maximum range is another tricky issue that has varied from edition to edition; in MGT they seem relatively short ranged.

Much of it depends on how much piracy is happening. A single desperate captain doesn't need to worry about whether a backwater system can support pirates - he may jump into three or four backwater systems, maybe diverting to gas giants to refuel or pretending to be a trader if there's no targets, before stumbling on a free trader or type R in the right location and the right moment. Maybe an ideal target system is one that gets an average of one 200-ton ship every 2-4 days or so, maybe 10,000 d-tons of cargo going through it a year. Enough for fair odds of meeting something; not necessarily vital to the economy.

Anyway, that's how it works in my game; your own mileage can vary!
 
dlpulver said:
Also, some of the ability to deal with pirates depends on assumptions. For instance, near as I can tell, in MGT there's no way to detect a target beyond about 25 planetary diameters: sensor range even with extended arrays seems to max out at about 300,000 km. (This was also the case in CT, though not in several other versions - the whole "no stealth in space" discussion seems to have originated with T4-era debates).

As I recall, it originated from the absence of science fictiony space stealth technology in Traveller combined with an inability to suspend disbelieve in detection gear that was less effective than real world TL7 detection gear.


Hans
 
Hans Rancke said:
dlpulver said:
Also, some of the ability to deal with pirates depends on assumptions. For instance, near as I can tell, in MGT there's no way to detect a target beyond about 25 planetary diameters: sensor range even with extended arrays seems to max out at about 300,000 km. (This was also the case in CT, though not in several other versions - the whole "no stealth in space" discussion seems to have originated with T4-era debates).

As I recall, it originated from the absence of science fictiony space stealth technology in Traveller combined with an inability to suspend disbelieve in detection gear that was less effective than real world TL7 detection gear.


Hans

Even when you do that, with not-criminally-negligent anti-pirates, it still doesnt help the pirates - we just send an outrider ahead of the trader to make sure the path is clear.

Catching incoming traders is vastly more difficult with reduced sensors as well, as you presumably dont know where they are going to come out of jumpspace.
 
At a population level of 6 a world should be able to afford a small system navy. Depending on exact GWP (which depends on population multiplier, TL and trade classifications), anything from a couple of patrol ships/SDBs to 15 full squadrons (@ 8 patrol ships/SDB). Though in the latter case it would probably just have 3 or 4 such squadrons and some bigger vessels for the rest of the money.

Agreed. 1-10 million people isn't a bad place. It's the equivalent, in an extreme case, of Sweden (for an economically successful state) - who maintain ~160 fighters and ~30 light warships - assume you can trade those for their traveller equivalents (light fighters and something like a non-jump capable Gazelle) and you have quite a respectable defence force.

Of course, the average world is a size level below and manages barely a tenth of that....
 
locarno24 said:
Agreed. 1-10 million people isn't a bad place. It's the equivalent, in an extreme case, of Sweden (for an economically successful state) - who maintain ~160 fighters and ~30 light warships - assume you can trade those for their traveller equivalents (light fighters and something like a non-jump capable Gazelle) and you have quite a respectable defence force.

Of course, the average world is a size level below and manages barely a tenth of that....

16 fighters and 3 light warships could be enough to make a world unsafe for a 400T Corsair.

But if not, I'll just have to repeat my answer to a similar observation earlier in this thread: the average mainworld is just not visited by many merchants and the merchants who do visit will be armed.


Hans
 
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