Corruption DC's?

[Shonuff]

So I've been down with a sinus infection recently and reading over the book.

I've read over the Corruption section and the magic & demon sections. It says, at times, a corrpution save must be made. But how do you calculate the DC? I've read page 75 multiple times, but I have some questions.

Let's look at an example:

You come in contact with a Bodiless Slimer demon. The GM determines that a corruption save needs to be made. How do you calculate the DC?

Ideas?

 

[Iron_Chef]

You come in contact with a Bodiless Slimer demon. The GM determines that a corruption save needs to be made. How do you calculate the DC?

Ideas?

The DC of the Corruption save is determined by 1d20 + Magic Attack Bonus + Charisma mod.

Example: A bodiless slimer has a Corruption mod of ? (-5 Cha mod)---dammit, the Magic Attack Bonus is freaking missing from the monster entry.

Okay, here's another example: The black fiend has a +7 mod to set the Corruption DC (+3 natural, +4 Charisma). A black fiends thus rolls 1d20+7 to set the DC.

 

[Shonuff]

Funny thing is, that is exactly why I chose the Bodiless Slimer for the example. No magic attack bonus and such a low CHA.

 

[Rikki-Tikki-Tavi]

The DC of the Corruption save is determined by 1d20 + Magic Attack Bonus + Charisma mod.

Example: A bodiless slimer has a Corruption mod of ? (-5 Cha mod)---dammit, the Magic Attack Bonus is freaking missing from the monster entry.

LOL. I noticed that on my first read through, but I like your revelation.

My problem is that when useing Greater Demonic Pact, you summon a demon lord. Since there are no demon lords in the book, you have no way to calculate the corruption check.

 

[InsomNY]

My problem is that when useing Greater Demonic Pact, you summon a demon lord. Since there are no demon lords in the book, you have no way to calculate the corruption check.

Perhaps the Book of Skelos will have some major demons for you. Until then, here's a clever and nasty workaround:

Let the Corruption save DC be set by the scholar's own Magic Attack roll and bonuses. He's willingly participating in his own corruption, after all. If he wants to be a mighty sorcerer, he must face the risk of self-destruction.

 

[Iron_Chef]

My problem is that when useing Greater Demonic Pact, you summon a demon lord. Since there are no demon lords in the book, you have no way to calculate the corruption check.

IMO, the Corruption DC for a demon lord should be a minimum of DC 25-30 for a relatively minor one or major one that is substantially weakened/bound or otherwise fairly dormant one whose visage is still vaguely understandable and identifiable by humans, like the golden dragon Morath-Aminee (The Eater Of Souls) from CONAN THE INVINCIBLE, the horned beastman Al'Ki'ir The Enslaver from CONAN THE TRIUMPHANT, the fishman Dagon, or the obscenely fat anthropomorphic frog Tsathoggua, patron of sorcerers and keeper of magic. The more powerful the demon lord and/or inscrutably alien its appearance, the higher the DC. DC 40 for princes or Great Old Ones (Cthulhu, Hastur, Nyarlathotep), or even 50 being possible for say, something as all-powerful as a god like Set, Azathoth or Shub-Niggurath. Does this make sense?

Does the summoner have to pass a Terror save to bargain with these beings instead of fleeing (maybe a greatly reduced one, since he called the creature up knowingly)? I would wager that these powerful beings would make even Thoth-Amon nervous to the extreme, if no craven jackal. Perhaps there should be a prerequisite minimum Corruption score made to even be able to bargain with these entities?

I always thought these beings were attracted to extremes, either pure innocence or pure evil, and took little notice of creatures that did not fit these categories, lumping them into a third category: "bothersome insects". So for example, a sorcerer who is not pure evil (Corruption score not yet 5), would be made to wait until it had been properly corrupted before the being would deign to take notice of it as anything more than an annoyance/potential food item. I think spending Fate Points to avoid Corruption would also attract such being's interest: "Why do you resist me, O Man? Such innocence is not for one such as you; one who has dared bring me forth and bargain by way of rites and signs. Come; embrace the true nature of the Universe and claim your destiny as ruler of men!" :twisted:

 

[Shonuff]

If there is any pattern to be detected with demons, it seems that the magic attack bonus if half of the demon's hit dice. You then add the CHA modifier and a d20 roll to determine the corruption DC.

As for the Bodiless Slimer, I can only now assume the CHA of 1 is a mistake.

Now for other artifacts/objects and other sorcerous practices (as mentioned on page 75) - I'm not there yet. Still trying to figure that out.

Anyone ahead of me?

In keeping with the tone of Howard, I really wanted these Corruption rules explained. I want corruption, madness, and obsessions to be a big part of Hyborian magic in my games.

 

[Sherimander]

I'm not quite I've fully understand the rule about corruption points (CP).

How a character do earn CP ? Each time a Corruption save is failed ?
Moreover, how many points give a failed Corruption save ? 1 or more ?

 

[Aramis]

I'm going to jump in with my question. When reading the section on spells and corruption I got the impression that the act of casting a spell may cause corruption checks. Is this true or is corruption checks only made when contacting a demon, using certain magic items etc?

Would going into the negatives with your spell points cause a corruption check?

Does anyone have some house rules on corruption checks?

 

[Raven Blackwell]

Under the unofficial spells I made for "Raven's Rules" there are some that are so unnatural that learning and casting them provoke Corruption tests. Although I've never posted it as a rule yet since it is still in testing the usual Corruption test for passing them is a set DC 15 + Power Points used by the spell. Note since in my 'deviant' system [as Sutek put it 8)] it requires more Power Points to contact, summon or bind to summon the more powerful Spirits/demons the bigger the Corrupt being and the more useful it could be- the more dangerous it is to mess with them. And after all that you have to make Corruption checks for exposure to Corruption per normal. Sorcery isn't meant to be safe or easy- the challenge in my game is often to see if the sorcerer can stay clean and sane or succumbs to unnatural forces and is destroyed. I've watched two sorcerers fall to Darkness already....but one that's kept his nose clean and is an asset to the party. 8)

As for Bodiless Slimers having CHA 1 I don't think's it a mistake. How attractive/full of personality is a small immaterial creature composed mostly of animate snot?

 

[VincentDarlage]

I'm going to jump in with my question. When reading the section on spells and corruption I got the impression that the act of casting a spell may cause corruption checks. Is this true or is corruption checks only made when contacting a demon, using certain magic items etc?

Sources of Corruption as per AE and SoS:
Peaceful contact with demons (including casting Demonic Pact, Greater Demonic Pact, or Vampire Transformation) (note, in case of demons without a published Magic Attack stat, demons use the scholar progression)
Being drained by a demon in a War of Souls
Peaceful contact with evil gods
Peaceful contact with creatures who have Corruption 10+
Peaceful, pleasurable contact with sorcerer who has Debaucher feat
5 min of conversation with sorcerer using the corrupt form of Projection
Securing and counting a tainted treasure hoard
Living in the glow of Green Fire Stones or Radium Gems for a week
Drinking water from the Zarkheba river

Also some aquired templates (Spawn of Dagoth Hill, Vampire, Child of Jhebbal Sag, Salome, Mummy of Ahriman) add Corruption. And aberrations and new life forms accumulate Corruption continually. All these creatures are arguably tainted anyway.

Would going into the negatives with your spell points cause a corruption check?

No.

Does anyone have some house rules on corruption checks?

I don't.

 

[VincentDarlage]

I'm not quite I've fully understand the rule about corruption points (CP).

How a character do earn CP ? Each time a Corruption save is failed ?
Moreover, how many points give a failed Corruption save ? 1 or more ?

Each time a character fails a save vs. Corruption, he gains a single Corruption Point.

 

[Sutek]

Under the unofficial spells I made for "Raven's Rules" there are some that are so unnatural that learning and casting them provoke Corruption tests. Although I've never posted it as a rule yet since it is still in testing the usual Corruption test for passing them is a set DC 15 + Power Points used by the spell. Note since in my 'deviant' system [as Sutek put it 8)] it requires more Power Points to contact, summon or bind to summon the more powerful Spirits/demons the bigger the Corrupt being and the more useful it could be- the more dangerous it is to mess with them. And after all that you have to make Corruption checks for exposure to Corruption per normal. Sorcery isn't meant to be safe or easy- the challenge in my game is often to see if the sorcerer can stay clean and sane or succumbs to unnatural forces and is destroyed. I've watched two sorcerers fall to Darkness already....but one that's kept his nose clean and is an asset to the party. 8)

As for Bodiless Slimers having CHA 1 I don't think's it a mistake. How attractive/full of personality is a small immaterial creature composed mostly of animate snot?

FOr the moment, let's keep house rules out of it. A lot of this was raised recently in another thread that never got anywhere, so I advokate getting to the bottom of the actual rules first before offering up alternatives to something we don't fully have a solution for in the first place.

Also, while each of the instances that Vincent cited are in fact means that force a corruption save, the rule book also simply states that "certain sorcerous practices" do as well, still following the d20+MAB+CHAmod equation.

 

[argo]

A failed corruption save gets you 1 point of corruption. Vincent already listed all the RAW sources of corruption, most of which fall in the "Peacfull contact with ... " category.

As for what I do when I need a corruption DC and there is no MAB assoicated with the thing in question... just come up with a DC appropriate to the situation. DC 20 makes for a nice default.


All that being said, I think that the Corruption mechanics is one of the best ways for a GM to personalize his game. Me for example, I like a bit of Lovecraft mixed in with my Howard so in my house rules I uped the frequency of things that provoke corruption saves. For example; any time a character gains new ranks in Knolwedge [arcana] he has to make a corruption save against DC 10 + (ranks in Kn[arcana]) (that is, if he had 4 ranks and now adds another rank for a total of 5 ranks then he must make a save against DC 15 = 10 + 5 ranks). The logic here is that in my game learning more about the arcane means either conducting your own strange experiments or hunting down the obscure notes and journals of other scholars ... either way you risk stumbling on dark truths of the universe and going a bit loopy.


OTOH if you like a more heroic game then the RAW work well ... so long as you aren't making pacts with demons you are mostly free of the risk of corruption.

Later.

 

[Raven Blackwell]

Unearthed Arcana created a set of rules to duplicate Call of Cthulhu's SANity rules. One of them was a skill called Knowledge [Forbidden Lore] which duplicated CoC's Mythos Lore skill. Exposure to Mythos creature or reading foul tomes increased the level- you couldn't use skill points to raise it. The higher the Knowledge [FL], the lower your maximum possible SAN. Knowledge [Forbidden Lore] was good in helping you identify and fight the creatures of the Mythos, but it also ate away ate your mind as you began to comprehend just how messed up the universe was...8) You could use this skill rather than Knowledge [arcana] to represent knowing 'too much'. It seem too harsh to penalize every scholar just for being educated......

 

[Neeklus]

You could possibly split the skill into two (or even three) to represent this Raven.

For every rank in knowledge Arcana, you can choose between either Dark Arcana, Divine Arcana, or something like Elemental Arcana. Or you could just have three seperate Knowledge skills.

 

[Raven Blackwell]

Actually, I’d forgotten a skill I’d developed for the “Conan and Cthulhu” thread that might be appropriate for this discussion-

Revised Skill

Knowledge [outsiders and the planes]
[was Knowledge (the planes)]
Class Skill for Scholar only
Int skill; Trained Only

Description: This skill represents the characters understanding of the dark and hellish dimensions accessible to the Hyborian world and the foul beings that dwell there. Studied mostly by the foul sorcerers that traffic with the beings from these worlds, this skill assists them in the summoning of these creatures into this world. This skill is also studied by those who seek to remove these threats from this world. Both types of scholars must be careful not to delve too deep into secrets not meant for men for the knowledge of such realities can unhinge even the strongest mind and corrupt the purest of scholars. In game terms for each five ranks of Knowledge [outsiders] the character learns, they must make a Corruption Check against DC 5 + number of total ranks of this skill or gain a Corruption point.

Successful uses of this skill allow a character to identify outsiders or know what dimension a type of creature might normally dwell. A DC 20+ check may at the Gamemaster’s discretion provide a character with knowledge of some of an Outsider’s properties, strengths and weaknesses. It may also allow a character to ability to discriminate between a native Outsider from a human or identify an Outsider in human form.

Synergy: Five ranks of Knowledge [arcana] provides a +2 synergy bonus to all Knowledge [outsiders] checks

For each five levels of Knowledge [outsiders] the caster possesses, the character gains a +1 synergy bonus to the Magic Success Rolls of all spells designed to contact, summon, bind or banish Outsiders.

Will also be posting this is “Raven’s Rules for Sorcery v 1.1”

 

[Sutek]

Raven: It's not appropriate. This is a thread about how to set Corruption DCs, and noone is wanting house rules yet.

 

[Raven Blackwell]

Raven: It's not appropriate. This is a thread about how to set Corruption DCs, and noone is wanting house rules yet.

Bite me fan boy. Last time I checked your profile the word 'Moderator' wasn't there- nor do I think it will be any time soon no matter how firmly you affix you lips around the arsehole of anyone vaguely associated with Mongoose. Thus your opinion on what everyone wants to see is just that- an opinon. Like the crazy homeless people wandering the streets declaring what they think the governement's policies should be. FYI I was responding to Neeklus's previous post alternate versions of Knowledge [arcana] to represent knowledge that leads to Corruption. I know that you've been less than shy in the past posting your house rules and think them second only to god's commandments so please quit being a hypocrite.

 

[Sutek]

Just re-read the title of the thread, Raven. It's not "Raven's Guide to re-writing Corruption Asccociated Feats and Skills". You have your own, massively huge thread (two of them actually) for that.

The point of this thread is to figure out how, by the RAW, corruption is to be handled.

Just trying to keep things on topic.

You wanna be insulting without provokation...cut loose. But I'm just trying to keep things orderly here.