Core Fleet/Navy elements - benchmark design paradigms
- Thread starter Chas
- Start date
Yeah, digging around I see it is standard practice to generally term the bigger vessels destroyers and the smaller frigates and I'll keep that in mind. Your list makes sense cavebear.
Going back to your discussion wnbc I agree with what you've stated there:
destroyer 8000-20000( a more multi-role version of an escort)
In the sense that the smaller frigate is very constrained for space. If you are going to have a ship that is going to be more multi-role for independent operations, perhaps have a small marine contingent for insertion, multiple weapon systems say with Ion cannons and a boarding boat for capture, you need this ship size.
Going back to your discussion wnbc I agree with what you've stated there:
destroyer 8000-20000( a more multi-role version of an escort)
In the sense that the smaller frigate is very constrained for space. If you are going to have a ship that is going to be more multi-role for independent operations, perhaps have a small marine contingent for insertion, multiple weapon systems say with Ion cannons and a boarding boat for capture, you need this ship size.
Chas said:
the way see a frigate is that it would tend to be built for either a specific mission, or as a modular ship that can be rapidly refitted to carry out various roles. Destroyers on the other hand would have the tonnage to allow for multiple roles without specialization, or refit for missions specific needs.
frigates would have limited self sustainability to allow it to act as a very light independent or patrol vessel...where as a destroyer would be a bit better suited to operating away from a patrol group, or flotilla.
while a frigate captain should be i front of an inquest, and/or punched in the face, for for getting the attention of a capital ship.
I can see some destroyers packing a decent offensive punch, preferably fire and forget weapons. The sort that allow it to dash in, lob off several salvos of ordnance, then run like the devil was on it's tail.
and as for marines,and boarding gear/craft..oh yeah..definitely for a patrol/multi role vessel. It would be almost a requirement.
Here's what I've done for the 5000 ton example.
Mako Class Frigate
The Mako class frigates are a product of the industrial might of the Imperium. A fundamentally expensive ship built at the cutting edge of technology that the Imperial Navy has fulfilling a work horse niche and leveraged the design to produce in massive numbers. The Mako is not a space superiority vehicle for its class but a craft to project military might across the far reaches of the galaxy. It could be over matched by a low jump ship of earlier technologies or by a system defense ship, at need it has an optimized drive to run away. Yet where ever the Imperial Navy needs to be, there is a Mako. Protecting against piracy, extinguishing petty warlord rebellion, searching and destroying enemy commerce. With a powerful sensor suite and the ability to hit at long range, the Makos are capable of dealing with lesser ships before they have truly recognized the frigate for what it is… though the reversed kite shape with the short end of the diamond forming the bow, is now well known across the Imperium.
Outside of a declared war the Mako’s are one of the ships most likely to see military action. More than one fleet admiral has found their career first launched on such a command. Notoriously cramped for space the Mako’s see their fair share of requests for rotation out of extended tours along the borders of the Imperium, however the lengthy queue to fill any ship vacancies with the opportunity for active combat sees the ships remain a prize posting for the ambitious.
The class at five thousand displacement tons is one that also fulfills a critical fleet action role, and a primary reason for the Imperial Navy’s decision to produce the chassis in such overwhelming numbers. For when the dispersed frigates are recalled to form squadrons they create a crucial escort screen standing side by side with ships of the line. Dwarfed by the spinal mounting monsters these frigates when assembled in numbers are still a valuable asset, able to counter both battle tenders and limited numbers of fighters.
Edit: left out the maneuver drive double energy efficient advantage in that build. It can fit in another 100 ton bay.
Mako Class Frigate
The Mako class frigates are a product of the industrial might of the Imperium. A fundamentally expensive ship built at the cutting edge of technology that the Imperial Navy has fulfilling a work horse niche and leveraged the design to produce in massive numbers. The Mako is not a space superiority vehicle for its class but a craft to project military might across the far reaches of the galaxy. It could be over matched by a low jump ship of earlier technologies or by a system defense ship, at need it has an optimized drive to run away. Yet where ever the Imperial Navy needs to be, there is a Mako. Protecting against piracy, extinguishing petty warlord rebellion, searching and destroying enemy commerce. With a powerful sensor suite and the ability to hit at long range, the Makos are capable of dealing with lesser ships before they have truly recognized the frigate for what it is… though the reversed kite shape with the short end of the diamond forming the bow, is now well known across the Imperium.
Outside of a declared war the Mako’s are one of the ships most likely to see military action. More than one fleet admiral has found their career first launched on such a command. Notoriously cramped for space the Mako’s see their fair share of requests for rotation out of extended tours along the borders of the Imperium, however the lengthy queue to fill any ship vacancies with the opportunity for active combat sees the ships remain a prize posting for the ambitious.
The class at five thousand displacement tons is one that also fulfills a critical fleet action role, and a primary reason for the Imperial Navy’s decision to produce the chassis in such overwhelming numbers. For when the dispersed frigates are recalled to form squadrons they create a crucial escort screen standing side by side with ships of the line. Dwarfed by the spinal mounting monsters these frigates when assembled in numbers are still a valuable asset, able to counter both battle tenders and limited numbers of fighters.
Edit: left out the maneuver drive double energy efficient advantage in that build. It can fit in another 100 ton bay.
Yes. That's where I sort of went with this design I'd put up, looking at a torpedo based frigate concept. Able to launch enough torps to overcome point defenses and an effective weapon on a credit per credit basis. The high tech level high jump ships are very expensive because you're using advantages on every component.wbnc said:
http://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/viewtopic.php?f=149&t=117365
Chas said:
Yeah I remember the design It's a good hard hitting design for it's size. I'd class it as a fleet strike frigate. A ship that is used to bring flanking fire, and long range support fire for heavier ships. Or as the leader of a long range strike/fast attack/raider group.
I'd group it up with six or eight corvettes for a screen...and a few long range stealth scouts to get real time recon data before the group enters the system...the group jumps in the scouts relay recon data...and the group goes in for the attack...or jumps out if the scouts have been destroyed, or a stronger force is in the system.
Well, that Restoration class frigate is a bit more stodgy than I think you're describing, it's only Jump 2 so not going anywhere too far in a hurry except bounce around a few local systems. 
But that thought leads to the bigger scheme of things and just how valuable is having Jump 4. Obviously if you're trying to move fleet elements across a chunk of the galaxy very important. And able to Jump 2 in, and then Jump 2 out a massive benefit in many situations. Such that you could see the Imperial Navy want to push the Jump 4 paradigm. However for sure in the current rule set nobody would have tried this at TL14 or below.
One of the issues is the now Maneuver 9 drive vs the old M6 max. This is M9 rather useful to get. But it chews up space in the smaller ships that could have gone to weapons such that the old 1st edition design matrix falls apart here a bit at this few 1000 ton and below size.
It's not critical, everybody else bar the Imperial Navy would have to be using Jump 3 designs. And maybe the powers that be for this edition would be quite happy to have the Imperial Navy main battlecraft being 5K and above and the rest fulfilling specialist roles like the long range stealth scout (now there's a Traveller's dream vessel!) With sector navies rounding out various vacancies at lower jump values, and where a TL14 or 13 ship is still a highly dangerous adversary able to hold its own. And fulfill most of the roles you outlined wbnc.
There are some options here.
The jump fuel efficient advantage could be moved from 5% to 7.5% per TL
Or perhaps the Imperial Navy might standardize on M7 using advantages to drop the tonnage on strike ships or using M9 on fast cruisers and the like which would give a little wriggle room on builds.
I'll get the 2000 ton frigate up for reference shortly...
But that thought leads to the bigger scheme of things and just how valuable is having Jump 4. Obviously if you're trying to move fleet elements across a chunk of the galaxy very important. And able to Jump 2 in, and then Jump 2 out a massive benefit in many situations. Such that you could see the Imperial Navy want to push the Jump 4 paradigm. However for sure in the current rule set nobody would have tried this at TL14 or below.
One of the issues is the now Maneuver 9 drive vs the old M6 max. This is M9 rather useful to get. But it chews up space in the smaller ships that could have gone to weapons such that the old 1st edition design matrix falls apart here a bit at this few 1000 ton and below size.
It's not critical, everybody else bar the Imperial Navy would have to be using Jump 3 designs. And maybe the powers that be for this edition would be quite happy to have the Imperial Navy main battlecraft being 5K and above and the rest fulfilling specialist roles like the long range stealth scout (now there's a Traveller's dream vessel!
) With sector navies rounding out various vacancies at lower jump values, and where a TL14 or 13 ship is still a highly dangerous adversary able to hold its own. And fulfill most of the roles you outlined wbnc.There are some options here.
The jump fuel efficient advantage could be moved from 5% to 7.5% per TL
Or perhaps the Imperial Navy might standardize on M7 using advantages to drop the tonnage on strike ships or using M9 on fast cruisers and the like which would give a little wriggle room on builds.
I'll get the 2000 ton frigate up for reference shortly...
Jump two is enough to get abut anywhere, especially if a ship can do a back to back jump.
maybe at lower tech levels that would be the answer to mobility. ships wih the ablity to make back to back jumps and carry drop tanks to extend their range.
couple with forward positioned resupply points, and maybe mobile fuel depots/tankers set up along the planned path of travel. ships rapidly refuel from tankers and mobile depots to make up for shorter jump drive range.
a 100K hull with the bulk of it's volume devoted to storage and resupply facilities weaponry would be mostly point defense and smaller bay weapons...enough bite to keep casual and hasty attacks at arms reach. I would imagine it would always keep it's internal fuel cells full, to allow it to make a jump if a deliberate assault threatens to overpower it's escort group.
a smaller squadron of skimmers and tankers could top it off from the nearest gas giant or ferry fuel forward from bases and more traditional depots. it would be particular effective if you based them in locations without a local fuel source or inhabited planet to make it harder to locate.
using these depots any jump three ship could bridge even the widest gap in a jump routes.and if they jumped just behind the fleet, say a standard J-3 distance form the engagement area combat ships could use drop tanks for the first leg, internal fuel for the next leg, then the remainder of their jump fuel to jump back to a mobile depot...which refuels and jumps out with the fleet before enemy pursuit forces can locate the rally point.
if a group of ordnance ships were also deployed the fleet could rearm, repair, and wait to ambush pursuit forces if they show up piecemeal.
sorry tangential thought jumped to the front of the line.
as or standard jump ranges, thrust numbers I think there would be some variance between powers. I can see devoting drive space to heavier weapons loads, and armor for some fores. a fleet intended for long range strikes or offensive action might go for max-Jump, while defensive groups or groups assigned to hold key choke points would have ships with less range, and more firepower/defense.
while having every ship have a minimum standard of jump and thrust would simplify maneuver itwould require a very concerted effort to bring all ships up to that standard. In cases where that standard exceeds the tactical and strategic needs of a particular set of ships I can see a second tier of vessels produced for that role/assignment.
So basically there would be Blocks of requirements....
Block A: J-4 M-9.
Block B: J-3 M-6
Block C J-2 M-6
just off the the cuff examples.
So in theory each ship type might have a number of variants in that type..each one devoted to either Mobile Offensive operations, Mobile fast reaction defense, and heavy defense/blocking.
so you might have a Plankwell Block A, or a Plankwell Block B build. The block A type having more advanced longer range, higher thrust drives, while the block B is a shorter ranged brawler.
Logistically more challenging. but focused on creating a force that can meet the basic minimum requirements for a role. Without having to spend a great deal on abilities,and assets not needed for its intended function.
As for sub-capital assets, those I can see being regulated to sector, sub-sector, system forces.In effect creating both a brown water, and blue water navy would exist. while smaller vessels would be attached to the larger blue water fleet assets, the bulk of them would be in the "brown water" stable.
an advantage to a Blue/Brown water navy is that recruits could be assigned to the Brown water force to gain experience in ship operations. Then advanced to Blue water ships when they are more seasoned. the reverse could also be applied. As a veteran crewman reaches his retirement/muster date, he could be rotated back to brown water to train, and pass on much needed experience to younger crews.
Less capable crewmen could be left in the brown water fleet when his lack of skill/expertise/discipline would not hamper a critical blue water vessel.
maybe at lower tech levels that would be the answer to mobility. ships wih the ablity to make back to back jumps and carry drop tanks to extend their range.
couple with forward positioned resupply points, and maybe mobile fuel depots/tankers set up along the planned path of travel. ships rapidly refuel from tankers and mobile depots to make up for shorter jump drive range.
a 100K hull with the bulk of it's volume devoted to storage and resupply facilities weaponry would be mostly point defense and smaller bay weapons...enough bite to keep casual and hasty attacks at arms reach. I would imagine it would always keep it's internal fuel cells full, to allow it to make a jump if a deliberate assault threatens to overpower it's escort group.
a smaller squadron of skimmers and tankers could top it off from the nearest gas giant or ferry fuel forward from bases and more traditional depots. it would be particular effective if you based them in locations without a local fuel source or inhabited planet to make it harder to locate.
using these depots any jump three ship could bridge even the widest gap in a jump routes.and if they jumped just behind the fleet, say a standard J-3 distance form the engagement area combat ships could use drop tanks for the first leg, internal fuel for the next leg, then the remainder of their jump fuel to jump back to a mobile depot...which refuels and jumps out with the fleet before enemy pursuit forces can locate the rally point.
if a group of ordnance ships were also deployed the fleet could rearm, repair, and wait to ambush pursuit forces if they show up piecemeal.
sorry tangential thought jumped to the front of the line.
as or standard jump ranges, thrust numbers I think there would be some variance between powers. I can see devoting drive space to heavier weapons loads, and armor for some fores. a fleet intended for long range strikes or offensive action might go for max-Jump, while defensive groups or groups assigned to hold key choke points would have ships with less range, and more firepower/defense.
while having every ship have a minimum standard of jump and thrust would simplify maneuver itwould require a very concerted effort to bring all ships up to that standard. In cases where that standard exceeds the tactical and strategic needs of a particular set of ships I can see a second tier of vessels produced for that role/assignment.
So basically there would be Blocks of requirements....
Block A: J-4 M-9.
Block B: J-3 M-6
Block C J-2 M-6
just off the the cuff examples.
So in theory each ship type might have a number of variants in that type..each one devoted to either Mobile Offensive operations, Mobile fast reaction defense, and heavy defense/blocking.
so you might have a Plankwell Block A, or a Plankwell Block B build. The block A type having more advanced longer range, higher thrust drives, while the block B is a shorter ranged brawler.
Logistically more challenging. but focused on creating a force that can meet the basic minimum requirements for a role. Without having to spend a great deal on abilities,and assets not needed for its intended function.
As for sub-capital assets, those I can see being regulated to sector, sub-sector, system forces.In effect creating both a brown water, and blue water navy would exist. while smaller vessels would be attached to the larger blue water fleet assets, the bulk of them would be in the "brown water" stable.
an advantage to a Blue/Brown water navy is that recruits could be assigned to the Brown water force to gain experience in ship operations. Then advanced to Blue water ships when they are more seasoned. the reverse could also be applied. As a veteran crewman reaches his retirement/muster date, he could be rotated back to brown water to train, and pass on much needed experience to younger crews.
Less capable crewmen could be left in the brown water fleet when his lack of skill/expertise/discipline would not hamper a critical blue water vessel.
:lol: :twisted: Locally yes. Though I wouldn't directly agree with that wbnc in terms of what happens on the scale of the Imperium where to achieve an overwhelming superiority in time of war the Imperial Navy has to reposition and consolidate units, and to do that on an effective large scale the Navy has to have high jump capable ships. I see that as being the primary reason that the Imperial Navy requires Jump 4 despite the loss of relative firepower. A jump 4 allows the at least regional naval base to function, where you can centralize a fleet to a limited degree, and also allows you to build a ship and then move it from more distant shipyards, or ongoing maintenance depots, to somewhere different in a meaningful timeframe. The jump 2 ship or worse jump 1 means these designs are locally built ships for local engagements.
Regard how to help this jump capability requirement, the drop tank variants are my favoritist type ship. It's what got me in Mongoose 1st Ed redesigns back in the day, having built this from the original high guard way way back in the day, heh. You can see what I did here and I'll certainly do an update of these Jump 6 designs which have all sorts of interesting tactical possibilities.
http://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/viewtopic.php?f=89&t=56448&hilit=abishai
And already have sketched out the next group of what I would call "Space Superiority" designs as what I would see as the optimum design for the Imperial Navy for a military campaign that needed a win by direct battlefield superiority. A heavy cruiser batron that would be Jump 4 enabled but have Jump 2 as permanent drop tanks that are only dropped in actual combat. I'm just waiting for the spinal mounts to be finalized before putting them up.
I'm still not entirely sure about the super tanker concept to assist strategic movement. To work it's got to be super super tanker and want to kick that about a bit. It could work on the deep space frigate level that the 100kton hulk would be, but that's not generally going to be particularly effective combat-wise, you'll never beat any sort of system ship defenses of any required tech level with frigates.
Where the battle riders fit into all of this is interesting. In doing a Jump 4 viable navy, there'd be more demand for battle riders than there would be in a Jump 3 standardized navy. The issue with battle riders and massive fighter carriers is that again, they are specifically space superiority battle field units, and it'll be worth a look to see how the variants pan out. I think an armored and armed half-tanker ship can work - likely a dual spinal mount build to consider there. But the battle riders would typically be part of the longer range centralized core. So you'd have the cruisers, well, cruising, along with the frigates and destroyers, with the battle fleet elements being in a functional naval base.
The concept of the fleet-in-harbor will be particularly important in this setting. As long as a couple of batron units are just 'there' it makes a huge difference in the strategic planning.
Regards the breakdowns, I think the TL of sector navies will also be crucial and the nature of auxillary forces important. There is a lot of firepower in the local sub sector jump 2 ships. Your brown water forces, with reservists et al are likely to be the first point of defense before the cavalry arrive in border regions. The Imperial Navy would have a specific plan to assist this, whether personnel or material or both. The rationale behind that Restoration frigate.
I think this is a case where your strategy definitely dictates the design of your ships. A force on force defense would require a much different set of ships, than a dispersed, hit the enemy where he ain't strategy.
as far as your jump 3-4 range standard I can see the need for ships with those sort of legs in the main body of a fleet. I'd say in that cse battle riders and carriers would be the way to go, with a solif group of fast battlewall class ships..heavy cruisers, battleships, and dreadnoughts forming a line, fighters and battle riders flanking, and supporting the battle line...or wall..yer choice.
My idea would be to for a main body, with your big heavy hitters, station them at a sector capital, or sub-sector capital. J-3 ship would be the local heavy hitters, they can take their time since the enemy HAS to find and engage them. and sometimes it is best to let the enemy come to you and stretch it's supply lines another jump or two.
I'd use a J-4 ship to go out and hit their supply lines, pull of heavy units to counter their movements, and set them up for the heavy hitters. ot to counter flanking units that are moving to hit your lines of communication/supply.
J-2s I'd put at major worlds, where the enemy can be anticipated to attack. the j-2 gives enough range to respond to local assaults if needed.
and I really like the idea of a ship that has J-4 for rapid movement supported by drop tanks and staging posts along a secured line of travel. they move at full range when responding to assaults.
the fact they only keep a j-2 supply internally means they can devote that tonnage to armor and weapons....
hmm I wonder how hard it would be to fit a ship with two sets of J-4 tanks..one carried through jump, then used for an immediate second jump..extending their un-refueled range to J-8..I did it with a corvette but wonder if you can pull it off with a bigger ship.
if my math is right you would have to rate a 100k ton ship rated at 140k to determin jump range with a second set of tanks installed and carried through jump...an addition of 4k tons more j-drive...
It would be a pain in the butt to do, but it might give a huge edge in mobility..especially if you staged fuel dumps along x-boat lines. A 16 parsec distance would take 4 jumps, with only two fueling stops.it might shave a week off transit times over jump-fuel-jump-fuel-jump-fuel-jump
it'd be Jump-jump-fuel-jump-jump..it really depends on how long a fuel stop for a battle group takes.
oh sorry random thought again...this is what goes on in my head at much accelerated pace...constantly....My girlfriend hates it because I start going on about this stuff..she's a gamer but not a gearhead...
as for the tanker/tender ships..I dodnt see the lack of combat effectiveness as an issue.they are not intended to engage the enemy...they'd be withdrawn behind the battlegroup or jump out the second contact was made.
pooint defnse and a good set of drives would be ther best combat setup.
I do like the Battle tanker idea...having a tanker dump a shot off a spinal mount, from the very edge of the engagement area, would certainly make me wish they were elsewhere. and it would force an enemy to task some of his resources to chasing them down and neutralizing them...
of course you could put the storage cells as drop tanks/break away hull..and if they were engaged they drop their tanks, get a boost to thrust, and now they are a smaller, far more agile ship.
as far as your jump 3-4 range standard I can see the need for ships with those sort of legs in the main body of a fleet. I'd say in that cse battle riders and carriers would be the way to go, with a solif group of fast battlewall class ships..heavy cruisers, battleships, and dreadnoughts forming a line, fighters and battle riders flanking, and supporting the battle line...or wall..yer choice.
My idea would be to for a main body, with your big heavy hitters, station them at a sector capital, or sub-sector capital. J-3 ship would be the local heavy hitters, they can take their time since the enemy HAS to find and engage them. and sometimes it is best to let the enemy come to you and stretch it's supply lines another jump or two.
I'd use a J-4 ship to go out and hit their supply lines, pull of heavy units to counter their movements, and set them up for the heavy hitters. ot to counter flanking units that are moving to hit your lines of communication/supply.
J-2s I'd put at major worlds, where the enemy can be anticipated to attack. the j-2 gives enough range to respond to local assaults if needed.
and I really like the idea of a ship that has J-4 for rapid movement supported by drop tanks and staging posts along a secured line of travel. they move at full range when responding to assaults.
the fact they only keep a j-2 supply internally means they can devote that tonnage to armor and weapons....
hmm I wonder how hard it would be to fit a ship with two sets of J-4 tanks..one carried through jump, then used for an immediate second jump..extending their un-refueled range to J-8..I did it with a corvette but wonder if you can pull it off with a bigger ship.
if my math is right you would have to rate a 100k ton ship rated at 140k to determin jump range with a second set of tanks installed and carried through jump...an addition of 4k tons more j-drive...
It would be a pain in the butt to do, but it might give a huge edge in mobility..especially if you staged fuel dumps along x-boat lines. A 16 parsec distance would take 4 jumps, with only two fueling stops.it might shave a week off transit times over jump-fuel-jump-fuel-jump-fuel-jump
it'd be Jump-jump-fuel-jump-jump..it really depends on how long a fuel stop for a battle group takes.
oh sorry random thought again...this is what goes on in my head at much accelerated pace...constantly....My girlfriend hates it because I start going on about this stuff..she's a gamer but not a gearhead...
as for the tanker/tender ships..I dodnt see the lack of combat effectiveness as an issue.they are not intended to engage the enemy...they'd be withdrawn behind the battlegroup or jump out the second contact was made.
pooint defnse and a good set of drives would be ther best combat setup.
I do like the Battle tanker idea...having a tanker dump a shot off a spinal mount, from the very edge of the engagement area, would certainly make me wish they were elsewhere. and it would force an enemy to task some of his resources to chasing them down and neutralizing them...
of course you could put the storage cells as drop tanks/break away hull..and if they were engaged they drop their tanks, get a boost to thrust, and now they are a smaller, far more agile ship.
Different build styles you can consider here. What I'd like to understand is how long actual skimming fuel takes. It's easy to include processors to do all of a jump 4 processing in one day, but what shall we is the bottleneck on actual refueling time, getting down into a massive planetary gravity well and then out again? If unrefined fuel could stored somewhere accessable, then a 1 day turn around between jumps is pretty good, quite acceptable in the bigger picture for a jump on jump type voyage.
One style of drop tank design for quick response is ships given drop tank capability that jump and drop the tanks at the start jump, then use the internal reserves for immediate rejump. And/or have prepositioned fuel dumps where drop tanks could be attached and used and dropped and reused.
Another ship design category to consider is the siege train. The strictly power focused platform for planetary bombardment and invasion.
One style of drop tank design for quick response is ships given drop tank capability that jump and drop the tanks at the start jump, then use the internal reserves for immediate rejump. And/or have prepositioned fuel dumps where drop tanks could be attached and used and dropped and reused.
Yes. What I was questioning was the effectiveness of a 100kt hulk for refueling and rearmament at smaller ship level in terms of frigates not bringing enough punch to a fight - frigates are commerce raiding, injunction and blockade, pirate ship smashing, not actual fleet or system combat apart from the escort role when so drafted. The super fuel tankers for ships of the line need to be really really big. It's a huge investment for something you could well be better buying a bunch of mobile long jump cruisers for the same money. Haven't thought it through at this point.
That is what I'm meaning by a drop tank that is only dropped when combat is undertaken. The old jump 6 ships I did (3 internal+3 droptank), and the intended heavy line of battle strike cruisers at jump 2 +2 would keep their drop tanks on at all times apart from when entering a do or die battle... and take the hit on maneuver for having a heavier ship in the normal course of just cruising. They'd become M9 once the drop tanks are let go. The paradigm won't work so well in the new rule set but should still be viable in a large enough space craft. Have to see how this pans out actually.
Another ship design category to consider is the siege train. The strictly power focused platform for planetary bombardment and invasion.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
For an interstellar empire, there would be a lot of trial and error, and the capability to adapt, and the industrial capacity and political will to do so quickly.
Jump factor one would cripple strategic movement, jump factor two is sufficient for convoy and trade protection.
Jump factor one would cripple strategic movement, jump factor two is sufficient for convoy and trade protection.
Chas said:Yes. For sub sector local navies jump 2 does the job protecting their cash flow, and why should they worry about what happens over there on the opposite rim of the Imperium? They pay taxes for somebody else to deal with the bigger picture.Condottiere said:
I think it's also a matter of resources rather than passing the buck. A sector force can only have so many shipyard up to the Imperium standard, where as the Imperial Fleet can call on Shipyard on the other side of the map.
So a Proper fleet formation would have ships built on the opposite side of the Imperium, or at least several sectors away...while sector, subsector, and System operated forces would have to make due with what local shipyards could turn out....or scramble to buy up any advanced warships on the market.
Much depends on how much of the major fleet elements are built by the depots, and what would be built by other naval yards, and then there's the private yards.
I would think that major combatants (100Kton and up) are probably built at depots, if only because it ensures that such craft are rarely, if ever, developed and built by a civilian ship yard. But smaller escorts and destroyers and such would be best built all over, which would allow you in times of war to quickly build up your escort and defensive fleets.
Government-owned production facilities for war materials used to be more common (though workers were almost always civilian). Today pretty much everywhere privatizes it.
I would think that major combatants (100Kton and up) are probably built at depots, if only because it ensures that such craft are rarely, if ever, developed and built by a civilian ship yard. But smaller escorts and destroyers and such would be best built all over, which would allow you in times of war to quickly build up your escort and defensive fleets.
Government-owned production facilities for war materials used to be more common (though workers were almost always civilian). Today pretty much everywhere privatizes it.
Or as noted pick up obsolete designs from the Imperial Navy, that are still perfectly effective for these roles. A TL14 or 13 Jump 3 ship is going to be capable of fulfilling the necessary tasks of the sub sector requirements.wbnc said:Chas said:Yes. For sub sector local navies jump 2 does the job protecting their cash flow, and why should they worry about what happens over there on the opposite rim of the Imperium? They pay taxes for somebody else to deal with the bigger picture.Condottiere said:
I think it's also a matter of resources rather than passing the buck. A sector force can only have so many shipyard up to the Imperium standard, where as the Imperial Fleet can call on Shipyard on the other side of the map.
So a Proper fleet formation would have ships built on the opposite side of the Imperium, or at least several sectors away...while sector, subsector, and System operated forces would have to make due with what local shipyards could turn out....or scramble to buy up any advanced warships on the market.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Jump drives wear out to the point it's inconvenient or uneconomic to repair them. Presumably.
So a tech level fourteen cruiser with a wonky jump drive that can't transition more than two parsecs might be regarded as being surplus to current needs.
So a tech level fourteen cruiser with a wonky jump drive that can't transition more than two parsecs might be regarded as being surplus to current needs.
Condottiere said:
I'd imagine that sort of defect would force the ship back to the yards for a refit.
I would think that sectors would snap up ships released for sale by the fleet. But they would not depend on those...The fact they would be decade old would make them less attractive.They would have the quirks of an older ship to deal with....
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