Concerning Move Silently and Hide

[David St-Michel]

[rant]

I really don't enjoy it when these two skills (Hide and Move Silently) are seperate. Personally, I consider these two abilities to basically be Stealth. It's a little ludicrous for me to imagine that anyone will pick only one of the two. "Hey, I can hide like the best of 'em... As long as I don't breathe or fidget, else my platemail will hint of my presence". And the idea of moving silently while being unable to hide is just as useless, in my opinion.

I consider it a way of chipping away at skill points to be able to actually do something that makes sense. You're a thief and you want to sneak attack? Well take BOTH Hide and Move Silently. Haha.

The majority of RPGs that I've played have this problem (at least I consider it an issue). At least in Conan the classes that have both Hide and Move Silently have a decent amount of skill points to be able to pull this off without sacrificing all of their knowledge in it.

Thank you for your time and patience.

[/rant]

 

[Ichabod]

There have been many suggestions for skill consolidation. The most common consolidations include H/MS into stealth, L/S into perception, some number of physical skills into athletics/acrobatics/whatever.

In some cases, I really like this. Stealth and Perception being two of the more desirable in my mind to avoid silliness. But, it doesn't solve the problem of skill imbalances. The current thread about craft/perform/profession somewhat gets at just how bad those skills are. Thematically, many character concepts should have profession skills, but other than P: Sailor, there's trivial payoffs to sinking ranks in them. Consolidate skills that people already put ranks into just creates superskills. Why wouldn't everyone stealth up? Perception up?

Reducing the overall list of skills does seem to help enable people to put ranks into things they wouldn't have previously. This makes me wonder why new skills get introduced like Challenge* and Tactics** in supplements like The Warrior's Companion as any worthwhile new skill sink further takes away from existing skills that either shouldn't exist or should get more love.

I doubt there will be any consolidation of skills in a published product - 2e Conan was more like 1.3e Conan, which suggests to me little reason for either a new version (unless books run out of 2e) or substantial changes in a new version. As well, my interest in redoing skill ranks for classes to something more like (depending upon other changes, like changes in saves) - barbarian 4, borderer/nomad/pirate/soldier 6, noble 8 - is similarly implausible, actually far more so. And, I struggle with how to have a system where you have crap, flavor skills using one mechanic and good, adventurer skills another. Dark Mistress's group does so, but it's just so clunky to have two tracks and our group can't even make the effort to understand RAW.

For house rules, these changes are, of course, easy providing the GM is interested in making them. Meanwhile, out of published products, the best things with regards to skills we can hope for are new uses for skills and abilities that arise at certain skill levels.

* Challenge - You could read my blog at iclee.wordpress.com for my review of The Warrior's Companion for fuller comments, but basically, I see this already covered by existing social skills.

** Tactics - Huh? How many people were excited by the existence of K: Warfare? Why punish those people by creating K: Warfare2? The effects of this skill should obviously be additional uses of K: Warfare or eliminate K:W and roll it into this skill. BTW, yet another reason it's ridiculous that soldiers get so few skill ranks.

 

[treeplanter]

I won't start a debate on number of number of skill point class should get. We boosted the noble to 6 per level, personnally I would probably downgrade the thief to 6 per level too. maybe upgrade soldier to 3 or 4 but again i've 2 soldier in my play group and they never compained about it.

I'm not a big fan of merged skill. Personnaly I like the favlour of having a charater with scarce skills point a bit everywhere since i pump my skills according to the game session.

There is ton of situation were you can call for only Hide OR move silently.

1. Terrain. Most terrain save for plain/desert reduce the spoting distance, making hiding really easy. However, moving silently thru a forest is pretty hard.

2. Darkness. The more it is dark, the easier it is to hide. In the forest at night, you don't need the hide skill. You'll not see anyone unless he is in your face. but you can hear someone moving.

3. Target status. You don't need to hide to approach someone sleeping, or from the back. following the same logic, you don't need to move silently in a crowd, or if target is standing next to a roaring river.

so translate that into character. A hunter will want a high move silently but do not care much for hiding. An assassin or bandit will need a high hide, more than move silently for ambushing their prey. An exiled and tracked noble will need hide, but not much move silently.

so personnaly I feel both skill are justified. Same thing goes for spot and listen.

 

[David St-Michel]

I'm not convinced.

Taking back the example of the assassin. Sure, Hide helps a lot. But most targets (unless the GM is really gentle) won't just rest on their side, back to the killer, arms crossed and whistling "Sitting on the dock by the bay". You actually need to cross that narrow corridor to attack.

And if you just happen to scrape your boot against something?

And the person who's into exile, and hiding. He hears the people at the other end of the room. Needs to leave. He hasn't been spotted... yet.

Unless he has Run as a feat, he's going to need Move Silently to get out before he eventually gets screwed, hanged, drawn and quartered, etc.

And as far as Spot and Listen go... Unless your character has a hearing or vision problem, it dosen't make a ton of sense either, in my opinion.

It's about concentration, and attention.

 

[treeplanter]

Don't agree here either. Some are just more visual than auditive.

It is likely that a great archer, or a lookout (une Vigie) is going to have a high spot compare to his listen.

Put yourself not in your character, but in the real world. Probably nobody have perfect sighting and listening, nor is equally good at hiding and moving without noise. The fact you WANT your character equally good at both do not imply it is realist.

Gaming wise, it make sense to regroup those in one skill. But it is almost as absurd as considering someone good at Climbing is equally good at swimming.

"Taking back the example of the assassin. Sure, Hide helps a lot. But most targets (unless the GM is really gentle) won't just rest on their side, back to the killer, arms crossed and whistling "Sitting on the dock by the bay". You actually need to cross that narrow corridor to attack."

if you have successfully hidden at a distance equal or less to your movement of the target, you don't need to move silently. you just charge during the surprise round... It's called an ambush.

"And the person who's into exile, and hiding. He hears the people at the other end of the room. Needs to leave. He hasn't been spotted... yet."

That do not mean he need to be equally good at both skill.

what bother you so much with having 2 skills? if you want both just put equal rank in both.





[/i]

 

[Ichabod]

Consolidating skills isn't for the simulationists out there who care about things like someone being better at hearing than seeing. It's for people who want characters to be well-rounded.

Let's say you have a barbarian you want to be stealthy and you don't want to multiclass into thief. You don't need to max out your Hide and Move Silently, but any level you put ranks into those is a level that you have only two other class skill ranks (and whatever INT bonus) to put elsewhere. The ranks go lightning fast.

The list of skills is *long*. For an outdoorsy barbarian, I'd want ranks in:

Balance
Climb
Craft: Herbalism
Heal
Jump
K: Geography
K: Nature
Spot
Survival
Swim

That's not too ridiculous when you put ranks in only half the time for some of these. But, it does become ridiculous when you start adding to the list with Hides, Move Silentlys, anything unusual the character may want to be good at.

I keep putting ranks into Appraise for NPCs I make because that would be thematically appropriate. I then take most of them away because I overspent (sometimes by 100%). I consider 2 ranks in a profession skill to be monumental - greatest gigolo e-e-e-ver - because of how useless they are. My singing, dancing, instrument players suddenly forget all about music when I correct their skill rank levels.

For all that there's accuracy in some people being better at hiding than moving silently or listening than spotting, it's not terribly accurate to have businessfolks who don't know what something is worth or don't know how to do business or don't know how to make the product they make or who can't get along with other people or who can't judge others motives or who don't know where they are or how to get their merchant caravans to the next town or who never learn anything when people are gossiping or who can't find their goods in their wagons.

But, as I said, there are problems with consolidating skills. Do I want everyone to be good at stealthing? Not so much, even when everyone will also be good at perceiving. Currently, choices for many classes are painful. Go too far and every character begins to be good at everything that matters.

Note that either way characters tend to look alike based upon which skills are most valued in a particular campaign. When ranks are scarce, you have to put them into key skills. When abundant, you can afford to put ranks into all of the good adventurer skills before getting into esoteric stuff. This is why it's more of a concern to me to make more skills matter to create character diversity than it is to broaden the functionality of skills.

 

[Twin Agate Dragons]

Move Silently and Hide

In these rules, Move Silently and Hide are combined into one skill, called Sneak. Why? Well, at least nine times out of ten, characters attempting a Move Silently must make a Hide check at the same time to avoid detection. It stands to reason that this should be just a single skill check.

Sneak (Dex; Armor Check Penalty)
Characters use the Sneak skill to tread softly and move silently. The character’s Sneak check is opposed by the Listen check of anyone who might hear him. He can move up to half his normal speed at no penalty. At more than one-half speed, and up to his full speed, he suffers a –5 penalty to Sneak checks. It’s practically impossible (–20 penalty) to sneak
around while running or charging.

Hiding: Characters can also use Sneak to hide. A character’s Sneak check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone who might see him. The character can move up to half normal speed and hide at no penalty. At more than one-half speed, and up to his full speed, he suffers a –5 penalty on the check. It’s practically impossible (–20 penalty) to hide while running or charging.

Creatures larger or smaller than Medium get size bonuses or penalties to Sneak checks made to hide as follows: Fine +16, Diminutive +12, Tiny +8, Small +4, Large –4, Huge –8, Gargantuan –12, Colossal –16.

If others are observing the character, even casually, he can’t hide. He can run around a corner to get out of sight and then hide, but the onlookers know at least where he went. However, if the onlookers are momentarily distracted (as by a Bluff check; see below), the character can attempt to hide. While the onlookers turn their attention from the character, he can attempt a Sneak check if he gets to a hiding place of some kind. (As a general guideline, the hiding place must be within 1 foot for every rank he has in Sneak.) However, the character makes this check at a –10 penalty, because he has to move fast.

As mentioned above, a character can use Bluff to help him hide. A successful Bluff check can create the momentary diversion he needs to attempt a Sneak check to hide in the midst of people aware of his presence.

Total Stealth: Characters trying to move silently and hide at the same time make only one Sneak check, which is opposed by either Spot or Listen.

-----------

I hope this is of help.

 

[David St-Michel]

thank you.

 

[bradius]

Currently, I find it useful for Listen and Spot to be two separate skills. There is a blind character in the party.

 

[Twin Agate Dragons]

thank you.

You're welcome. I'm glad I could be of help.

 

[David St-Michel]

treeplanter.

I understand your point of view. However, my beef is with this :

Take an hour or two, and try to hide. I mean, really really try to hide from one specific person. Well, eventually, you're going to try and move on your tip-toes, slip behind an obstacle, etc.

I see Hide and Move silently as one big skill, basically.

I understand, again, your point of view that Climb and Swim are two distinct abilities. Like karate and kung-fu.

I'm just saying that for some characters, it's a real drag to have to blow twice the skill points for something that's basically two parts of one whole.

 

[Demetrio]

Climb and Swim are two distinct abilities. Like karate and kung-fu.

Not really. Climb and swim allow you to perform vastly different tasks. Karate and Kung fu are both about whacking people.

I'm a good climber but a fairly crap swimmer, Being good at climbing will not save me from dorwning. If I were good at kung fu but crap at karate I'd still be able to whack people.

Big difference.

 

[treeplanter]

"I'm just saying that for some characters, it's a real drag to have to blow twice the skill points for something that's basically two parts of one whole. "

Well I think it's pretty fair since Spot and listen are also 2 skills. The thing is, you can't merge those 2 skills without remaning character skills points. As I pointed, gaming-wise it make sense to merge. But it's false to assume that every character should equally good at hiding and listen.

If you want to be equally good, then that quite simple. put equal rank in both.

 

[Sutek]

Ahhh...the simplicity of people wanting to change the rules for no apparent reason. (lol)

Alright, here's my own special ascerbic take on skill consolidation: It's for unimaginative clods who don't want to simply play the RAW.

To be less...testy...I'm not for skill consolidation, for two basic reasons: (A) Everyone seems to have jumped on that particular bandwagon, and I'm nothing if a non-conformist, and (B) it steers towards a lack of flexibility and a mechanical imballance in the Skill Point system.

(A) I've always been the sort to believe that the most popular thing is very rarely the right thing to do. There was a while there when bungee jumping was all the rage, too. Also, all I ever had to go on was stories that people would tell or that people would make up about it. As a mater of fact, that's the way it works for most fads: the thing gets popular, everyone tells the slackers (like me) that they "simply MUST do XYZ" because otherwise [insert several explanations of scenarios where the slacker in question feels like an idiot or is ostracised for his poor decisions]. I think another falacy is that consolidation removes "unnecessary die rolling" fromt he game and therby speeds play along, whereas I say that if skill roles are slowing down your game, you're doing something wrong.

(B) This gets a little more intricate.

The basic upshot is that the skill system is built to function with some classes haveing large pools (and therefore, ultimately, more and/or higher Ranks) and some having paltry ones. To this end the skills were divided to effectively "lock out" some skills be making the more challenged classes have to pass them over in favor of other more economical skills.

Fighters get the least and so have to choose skills very wisely, however they also don't need to rely on them, instead fulfilling the party role of head-basher. Rogues get the most and step up to fulfill the role of "team smarty pants," being able to take loads of skills and taking them all at maximum or ar least optimal ranks.

The skills that seem linked, the ones that everyone for some reason wants to consolidate, were intended to be separate to simulate thier rarity int he world. Not many folks are skilled in Silent Movement, Hiding, Spoting and Searching all at the same time. Not to mention that there are many instances where someone could be hiding and not need to be silent, or vice versa. The skills were given very solid and mutually exclusive functions in the game so that their uses, and therfore their value, were accentuated by being separate skill entries:

Hide - the ability to reduce an opponent's change of noticing you visually. (This is the skill that folks typically want to consolidate with Move Silently, but, I ask you...why not Disguise?)
Move Silently - the ability to reduce an opponent's change of noticing you auditorally. (Usually, people start here as the basis for an argument to consolidate because there's no direct analogue - in other words, a skill like, say...make noise.)
Spot - passive ability to attempt to notice things (checked when the player is not expecting to be able to notice something)
Search - the active ability to attempt to notice things (checked when the character has a few minuite to spend looking around on purpose for something specific (stated as a character intent).

Can Hide and Move Silently be used together? Certainly. Are they always used together? Certainly NOT! A character might want to keep quiet while opening a chest or freeing himslef from bonds, completely not moving, but trying to be quiet. Likewise, one might want to hide, and yet make a noise as a distraction or a signal. Hard to manage when the two skills are lumped into a single one for "convenience."

I think that ultimately, people simply can't be bothered, and jsut want max ranks on all of their skills, culminating in the major badass character they always dreamed of for ...oh...days. They ant simplicity over the work that role playing sometimes takes, and they want to take as many die rolls as possible out of the game, even if that means that multiple outcomes and solutions are arrived at be one single throw of a die, rather than having to take the chance at missing a crtical die roll out of many attempts.

I could be wrong...

 

[treeplanter]

Sutek;

Thanks

 

[David St-Michel]

*blinks, tilts head to the side*

Now, maybe I'm the only one wondering, but...

...where did -THAT- come from?

I ranted on my opinion of Hide and Move Silently to begin this thread. I spoke out on what I perceive as a cheap and effective way of having skill points vanish on two skills that are usually (in my opinion) used together. I don't recall anyone anywhere attempting to forcefully get people on a particular bandwagon of any sorts.

What really lost me was the bungee jumping bit. And I haven't seen anyone telling you or anyone else that "THEY SIMPLY MUST do XYZ."

As far as being an unimaginative clod? I have my opinion, and I have the chance to actually speak it out without having people calling me names or such. It may actually surprise you, but (like yourself), some people do actually come up with their own ideas, and speak them out. And surprisingly, they don't get called clods, or unimaginative, or anything else. That's called having a polite discussion. The very reason I joined this forum was just that. People having polite discussions. At least, that was the intial feeling I got when I stepped into this forum.

I might have assumed incorrectly, it seems.

 

[treeplanter]

"I ranted on my opinion of Hide and Move Silently to begin this thread. I spoke out on what I perceive as a cheap and effective way of having skill points vanish on two skills that are usually (in my opinion) used together. I don't recall anyone anywhere attempting to forcefully get people on a particular bandwagon of any sorts."

Well I think what he mean is that is kinda getting popular to merge skill (couple of d20 system and 4th ed are doing that now). anyway that is not very important in the discussion.

"Can Hide and Move Silently be used together? Certainly. Are they always used together? Certainly NOT! A character might want to keep quiet while opening a chest or freeing himslef from bonds, completely not moving, but trying to be quiet. Likewise, one might want to hide, and yet make a noise as a distraction or a signal. Hard to manage when the two skills are lumped into a single one for "convenience.""

That sum pretty much what I said. And somewhat, you're saying the same thing when saying "points vanish on two skills that are usually (in my opinion) used together." Usually is the keyword here. yeah they'll often be used together. but Usually is not strictly.

 

[DooMJake]

I still think it is a stupid idea to seperate these two skills.
If one wants just to hide, they can still do that with a merged skill. No one is preventing them from doing it.
What the problem is (at least in some people's and my eyes) that every character who wants to use stealth well, he has to burn two (precious) skillpoints to do that.

 

[treeplanter]

I still think it is a stupid idea to seperate these two skills.
If one wants just to hide, they can still do that with a merged skill. No one is preventing them from doing it.
What the problem is (at least in some people's and my eyes) that every character who wants to use stealth well, he has to burn two (precious) skillpoints to do that.

Stupid, I don't think so. More complexe, maybe.

The problem? it is fairly simple. I've no problem to have hide/move silently merged if the system is built with this in mind.

No look at it that way. You merge hide and mv. silently. Now every barbarian, nomad, borderer, thief and pirate are likely to max out this "super" skill. Also, if you merge those 2 skills you also have to merge spot and listen and why not search?. So what it does it that every class who possess those skill as Class skills basicly get 2 more skills point per level. So to be fair, you would have to merge other skill for noble, soldier and scholar, ideally skill exclusive to those.

I think in the end, soldier would be the more screwed if you go heavy in skill merging, wich is not a good thing as he is already the worst...

That is purely mechanic wise. Personnaly I think overmerging skill result in a loss of favlour, wich is not really fun anyway.

 

[David St-Michel]

I hadn't thought of the aspect of over-specialisation, where everyone knows how to do everything.

I should re-evaluate my position.